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leonie
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wondering if anyone has any info on this based perhaps on the reign of Herod the Great?
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steve53
Guest
One of my favorite subjects.
It all depends on when Jesus was born, a subject of no small contention.
I will give you a theory from Hagan’s “Passover”.
To make a long story short, Jesus was born in 12 B.C., close to the time of the passage of Halley’s Comet, and born somewhere close to Bethlehem. The comet was a tremendously spectacular celestial event. This prompted the “wise men” to come to Herod looking for a new-born King, and so the infanticide began.
Josephs and his family had to flee to Egypt in either 12, 11, or 10 B.C.
When Herod the Great died in 4 B.C., Joseph ventured to return back to Judea. There, he found Herod’s son Archelaus ruling, and was just as cruel and on the lookout for the Messiah as Herod had been. Joseph and his family moved north to Nazareth, in the territory of Herod Antipas. Antipas had a much milder disposition, and, besides, he was building a capital city at nearby Sepphoris, so there was work to be had.
The enrollment period of A.D. 6 occurred when Archelaus was removed by Augustus, and his kingdom was transformed into a Roman province. A census had to be taken so Augustus knew what he had. So Joseph and Mary had to return to be counted, and in Bethlehem Mary had a later child, possibly the future James the Just. The author of Luke mixed up the two stories, or was told them incorrectly by his sources.
So Jesus lived in Egypt for probably six or seven years before going to Nazareth.
But many don’t agree with this, and we should hear from them shortly!
It all depends on when Jesus was born, a subject of no small contention.
I will give you a theory from Hagan’s “Passover”.
To make a long story short, Jesus was born in 12 B.C., close to the time of the passage of Halley’s Comet, and born somewhere close to Bethlehem. The comet was a tremendously spectacular celestial event. This prompted the “wise men” to come to Herod looking for a new-born King, and so the infanticide began.
Josephs and his family had to flee to Egypt in either 12, 11, or 10 B.C.
When Herod the Great died in 4 B.C., Joseph ventured to return back to Judea. There, he found Herod’s son Archelaus ruling, and was just as cruel and on the lookout for the Messiah as Herod had been. Joseph and his family moved north to Nazareth, in the territory of Herod Antipas. Antipas had a much milder disposition, and, besides, he was building a capital city at nearby Sepphoris, so there was work to be had.
The enrollment period of A.D. 6 occurred when Archelaus was removed by Augustus, and his kingdom was transformed into a Roman province. A census had to be taken so Augustus knew what he had. So Joseph and Mary had to return to be counted, and in Bethlehem Mary had a later child, possibly the future James the Just. The author of Luke mixed up the two stories, or was told them incorrectly by his sources.
So Jesus lived in Egypt for probably six or seven years before going to Nazareth.
But many don’t agree with this, and we should hear from them shortly!
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kentuckyliz
Guest
I’ve never heard anyone posit a birth year for Jesus as early as 12 BC.
He would have been middle aged on the Cross–perhaps we should add a pot belly?
He would have been middle aged on the Cross–perhaps we should add a pot belly?
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LilyM
Guest
Maybe He died earlier than we thought too?I’ve never heard anyone posit a birth year for Jesus as early as 12 BC.
He would have been middle aged on the Cross–perhaps we should add a pot belly?
Or the whole thing could be a load of cobblers because there isn’t, as has been pointed out, a reliable way of dating His birth.
Perhaps the Evangelist simply confused the reigns of Herod the Great and his son Archelaus (first name also Herod), and the Holy Family actually came back when Archelaus died in 18 CE, making Jesus probably 12?
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kentuckyliz
Guest
Actually, did you see the “Star of Bethlehem” show on EWTN? A layman uses Starry Night astronomy software to try and figure out the star of Bethlehem and its meaning–who were the Magi, how would they know about prophecies of a Jewish Davidic king, how can a star stop?–on December 25, 1 BC, to be precise.
He even figures out the Woman of Rev 12 astronomically, and the date and phenomena that happened at the crucifixion–April 3, 33 AD.
You should check it out.
He even figures out the Woman of Rev 12 astronomically, and the date and phenomena that happened at the crucifixion–April 3, 33 AD.
You should check it out.
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Vince1022
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we have no idea.
It’s only one of the four Gospels that suggests they were even in Egypt, so this is a highly speculative and unresolvable question.
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patg
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I would say the answer is zero. This story is easily interpreted as typical Jewish midrash genre in which Matthew is presenting Jesus to his largely Jewish audience as the new Moses.
Matthew and Luke’s contemporaries would have been familiar with the technique of using an Old Testament text to cast light on a contemporary situation. This is what is happening in the infancy narratives. Images from scripture are woven around the accounts of events in order to teach the significance of those events in the lives of the audience.
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leonie
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aw, you guys are no help at all!!
I’m rejecting any idea that gives Mary other children. According to my Catholic faith, that’s heresy!! Though, Steve, thanks for taking time to give me such a lengthy response. I appreciate your thoughts.
Could anyone give me the date of Herod’s death?
I’m rejecting any idea that gives Mary other children. According to my Catholic faith, that’s heresy!! Though, Steve, thanks for taking time to give me such a lengthy response. I appreciate your thoughts.
Could anyone give me the date of Herod’s death?
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patrick457
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Herod is traditionally assumed to have died somewhere in 4 BC, though there was a recent writer who put forward the case that his death actually occured in 1 BC.aw, you guys are no help at all!!
I’m rejecting any idea that gives Mary other children. According to my Catholic faith, that’s heresy!! Though, Steve, thanks for taking time to give me such a lengthy response. I appreciate your thoughts.
Could anyone give me the date of Herod’s death?
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patrick457
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Admittedly, this is where I don’t side with Hagan.
While it is correct that some identify the Star with Halley’s Comet (12 BC), I personally think that we should not necessarily think of the Star of Bethlehem as this big, grand celestial portent that so many illustrations and films over the years have made it to be. We have no indication from the Gospel of Matthew that it was very such; heck, it would seem that only the Magi were the ones who actually noticed it!
Correct.
As a Catholic, I don’t believe in the idea that Mary the Aeiparthenos (ever-Virgin) had other biological children besides Jesus.
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steve53
Guest
Patrick! Vince! Old friends all.
We gave been down this road before…
In response to Jesus’ age, in the book of John, six months before his crucifixion, Jesus was rebuked by the Jews in the Temple for preaching with authority though he was “not yet fifty.”
Could that possibly mean that Jesus (gasp!) was actually close to being fifty years of age, but not quite? If so, that would support a 12 B.C. birth date. BTW, in those lean times, pot bellies were a rarity.
Leone, if you reject Flavius Josephus as a legitimate source, then Hagan will be meaningless to you. But if you accept Josephus, then a lot of very interesting details about New Testament times can found or derived- which Hagan goes into.
If you have an interest in this area, you are doing yourself a disservice not to study Josephus.
We gave been down this road before…
In response to Jesus’ age, in the book of John, six months before his crucifixion, Jesus was rebuked by the Jews in the Temple for preaching with authority though he was “not yet fifty.”
Could that possibly mean that Jesus (gasp!) was actually close to being fifty years of age, but not quite? If so, that would support a 12 B.C. birth date. BTW, in those lean times, pot bellies were a rarity.
Leone, if you reject Flavius Josephus as a legitimate source, then Hagan will be meaningless to you. But if you accept Josephus, then a lot of very interesting details about New Testament times can found or derived- which Hagan goes into.
If you have an interest in this area, you are doing yourself a disservice not to study Josephus.
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patrick457
Guest
The statement “You do not yet have fifty years” was actually made in the context of Jesus talking about Abraham “seeing [His] day” (John 8:31-59). Some commentators explain this by saying that fifty is just a round number, or that Jesus looked older than He really was (not really strange in that day and age). But in any case, if we read this passage in its context, I think the point of the statement is not so much Jesus’ specific age but is rather that this man wasn’t around yet during Abraham’s time, nor He could have been - I mean, Abraham lived centuries - millenia ago! To which Jesus answers: “before Abraham was, I am.” Biblical passages should not be cherry-picked and divorced from their original context.
Some take a passage in St. Irenaeus’ Adversus Haereses to mean that Irenaeus believed Christ was fifty, but this was something that a few folks in the net have answered adequately.
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steve53
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It could well be.The statement “You do not yet have fifty years” was actually made in the context of Jesus talking about Abraham “seeing [His] day” (John 8:31-59). Some commentators explain this by saying that fifty is just a round number, or that Jesus looked older than He really was (not really strange in that day and age). But in any case, if we read this passage in its context, I think the point of the statement is not so much Jesus’ specific age but is rather that this man wasn’t around yet during Abraham’s time, nor He could have been - I mean, Abraham lived centuries - millenia ago! To which Jesus answers: “before Abraham was, I am.” Biblical passages should not be cherry-picked and divorced from their original context.
Some take a passage in St. Irenaeus’ Adversus Haereses to mean that Irenaeus believed Christ was fifty, but this was something that a few folks in the net have answered adequately.
But Josephus notes that many Essene lived to be over a hundred. There were probably more than a few Temple Priests who were preaching with authority who were in their seventies or higher, and at the same time Jesus was- maybe just down the portico from Jesus a few columns-worth.
Jesus, a well known figure then, was preaching and cryptically challenging them all, and with a similar authority. For this Jesus was admonished by the old guard.
I am guessing that 50 WAS an important age in a Jewish male- maybe even more so in one of the Priesthood (though any male could stand up and say his peace in a synagogue during the Sabbath convocation). Seven was a mystical number for the Jews, and the number of days in a week. So the first year after seven “cycles” of seven years would be 50. What was the significance? We don’t know. The tradition wasn’t reported by Josephus (no need for him to), or the New Testament, and it was lost through the two Roman actions against the Jewish nation in the next century.
But sometimes the obvious explanation is, in fact, the correct one.
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Vince1022
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Mary having other children has no bearing on the question of how long the Holy Family was in Egypt.aw, you guys are no help at all!!
I’m rejecting any idea that gives Mary other children.
Does it?
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Vince1022
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Please, chapter and verse? Thanks.
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patrick457
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I’ll answer for Steve here.
The Judaeans said to Him, “Now we have known that you have a demon! Abraham died, and the prophets; and you are saying, ‘If any one may keep my word, he shall never taste of death to the age’. You are not greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died. Whom do you make yourself?” Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom you say that He is your God; and you have not known Him, and I have known Him. And if I say that I have not known Him, I shall be like you - a liar; but I have known Him, and His word I keep. Abraham your father was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and rejoiced.”
The Judaeans, therefore, said to Him, “You do not yet have fifty years, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was - I am.” They took up, therefore, stones that they may throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out from the temple.
- John 8:52-59
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Vince1022
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Thanks! Appreciate the reference.
Still, so what? What does this have to do with the topic of this thread? The Gospel of John (and not other Gospel or New Testament passage) indicating Jesus was “not yet 50” means what?
Jesus was “not yet 50” at his birth. And his crucifixion. And at everything recorded about him in all four Gospels.
So, what’s the point? This thread is about how long the Holy Family was in Egypt. What does John 8:52-59 have to do with that? Thanks!
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steve53
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Thank you, Patrick.
Obviously, if you want to know how long Jesus spent in Egypt, you have to know when he was born, when he died, and even then make some assumptions on Jesus’ life and the history of those times. Hagan does OK with this relying on Josephus.
About the quote in John, if taken literally, and we assume that Jesus was 48 or thereabouts just before his crucifixion, that blows a huge hole in the theory that Jesus was crucified in A.D. 33, and was born in either A.D. 2 or 3.
So a complicated answer is needed for this outwardly simple question.
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steve53
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Of course I meant 2-3 B.C.
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adrift
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That they say to Jesus that He is not yet 50 does not mean He was close to 50. He was about 30 the Scriptures say.
Jesus was born 6-5 BC.
We do not no how long He stayed in Bethlehem before fleeing to Egypt.
It was longer than forty days is all that can be said.
Egypt was about 350 miles. How many miles they covered in a day would determine how long a trip would take.
Ten miles a day would be a little over a month.
Herod died 4 BC. That would make it either one or two years after Jesus was born. My guess is that they would have lived in Egypt about a year.
Jesus was born 6-5 BC.
We do not no how long He stayed in Bethlehem before fleeing to Egypt.
It was longer than forty days is all that can be said.
Egypt was about 350 miles. How many miles they covered in a day would determine how long a trip would take.
Ten miles a day would be a little over a month.
Herod died 4 BC. That would make it either one or two years after Jesus was born. My guess is that they would have lived in Egypt about a year.
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