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Vince1022
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Who claims this?
The Catholic Church does not. No Catholic scholar I am aware of claims such either.
What’s your point? Thanks.
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adrift
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steve53
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The Gospel of John IS scripture, and written by an eyewitness. And John says he was close to fifty years of age.
So there.
So there.
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patrick457
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Okay, we’re going in circles here. John merely records that the Judaeans ask Jesus how He could have seen Abraham granted that He is (apparently) “not yet” fifty years old. In any case, they were presenting a rhetorical question (even if Jesus was fifty, it would have been impossible for Him to have seen Abraham, who lived thousands of years ago), not a statement. But John doesn’t give any affirmation that Jesus was indeed fifty, nor does He record that Jesus said something to the effect of “But I’m fifty!” What Jesus says is, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Which tells us little about His actual age, unless of course you use that to propose that Jesus was actually a thousand years old when He made that statement.
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steve53
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“they were presenting a rhetorical question”
How do you know?
You are REALLY reaching here. Your convoluted reasoning is giving me a headache.
How do you know?
You are REALLY reaching here. Your convoluted reasoning is giving me a headache.
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bkayw
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They left prior to Herod the Great’s death and we know that the Holy Family was back at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem when Jesus was 12, when He became separated from Mary and Joseph.
In Matthew 2:
In addition, He stayed there until the death of Herod,
that what the Lord had said through the prophet might be fulfilled,
Out of Egypt I called my son.
When Herod had died, behold,
the angel of the Lord appeared in a dream
to Joseph in Egypt and said,
“Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel,
for those who sought the child’s life are dead.”
He rose, took the child and his mother,
and went to the land of Israel.
But when he heard that **Archelaus was ruling over Judea **in place of his father Herod,
he was afraid to go back there.
And because he had been warned in a dream,
he departed for the region of Galilee.
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth…"
With the agreement of the emperor Augustus,
Archelaus received half of his father’s kingdom, including Judea, after Herod’s death. He had the title “ethnarch” (i.e., “ruler of a nation”) and reigned from 4 B.C. to A.D. 6.
Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Edom from 4 BC to 6 AD. He was the son of Herod the Great and Malthace; the brother of Herod Antipas, and the half-brother of Herod Philip I.
In Matthew 2:
In addition, He stayed there until the death of Herod,
that what the Lord had said through the prophet might be fulfilled,
Out of Egypt I called my son.
When Herod had died, behold,
the angel of the Lord appeared in a dream
to Joseph in Egypt and said,
“Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel,
for those who sought the child’s life are dead.”
He rose, took the child and his mother,
and went to the land of Israel.
But when he heard that **Archelaus was ruling over Judea **in place of his father Herod,
he was afraid to go back there.
And because he had been warned in a dream,
he departed for the region of Galilee.
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth…"
With the agreement of the emperor Augustus,
Archelaus received half of his father’s kingdom, including Judea, after Herod’s death. He had the title “ethnarch” (i.e., “ruler of a nation”) and reigned from 4 B.C. to A.D. 6.
Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Edom from 4 BC to 6 AD. He was the son of Herod the Great and Malthace; the brother of Herod Antipas, and the half-brother of Herod Philip I.
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bkayw
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Someone mentioned above about the Rick Larson program. Most people don’t realize that planetary motion is so stable today that NASA is able to set clocks to their accuracy.
Computer programs today are able to run the clock backward and determine the positions of the planets and the moon (back to the time of Jesus).
Jesus’ death on the cross can be calculated because Jewish Passover is a floating holiday that occurs annually according to the lunar calendar (appearance of the full moon). Like any of our birthday celebrations, we celebrate the day - however that day ranges each year through 7 different days.
Jesus died on a Friday and Passover that year landed on a Saturday.
In addition, Scripture talks about darkness falling over Jerusalem on Friday and that a “blood moon” (a lunar eclipse) occured that evening.
Using a computer to reverse planetary motion, April 3, 33, marks the date of Jesus death.
Computer programs today are able to run the clock backward and determine the positions of the planets and the moon (back to the time of Jesus).
Jesus’ death on the cross can be calculated because Jewish Passover is a floating holiday that occurs annually according to the lunar calendar (appearance of the full moon). Like any of our birthday celebrations, we celebrate the day - however that day ranges each year through 7 different days.
Jesus died on a Friday and Passover that year landed on a Saturday.
In addition, Scripture talks about darkness falling over Jerusalem on Friday and that a “blood moon” (a lunar eclipse) occured that evening.
Using a computer to reverse planetary motion, April 3, 33, marks the date of Jesus death.
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patrick457
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(Sigh) Once again, John 8:52-59.
The Judaeans said to Him, “Now we have known that you have a demon! Abraham died, and the prophets; and you are saying, ‘If any one may keep my word, he shall never taste of death to the age’. You are not greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died. Whom do you make yourself?” Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom you say that He is your God; and you have not known Him, and I have known Him. And if I say that I have not known Him, I shall be like you - a liar; but I have known Him, and His word I keep. Abraham your father was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and rejoiced.”
The Judaeans, therefore, said to Him, “You do not yet have fifty years, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was - I am.” They took up, therefore, stones that they may throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out from the temple.
I don’t see anything in the passage in question that resembles a definitive statement, either by John, Jesus, or the Judaeans themselves - just a question.
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steve53
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Right.
So it could be a rhetorical question, or it could not be.
To say it is one over the other is wrong. But without any particular Jewish significance to the age of fifty, I maintain that Jesus, was, in fact, not yet fifty. But close enough to it that 50 would have been the nearest round-number “benchmark”.
Show me the significance of the age of fifty in Jewish religious life of that time, and I will gladly change my opinion.
So it could be a rhetorical question, or it could not be.
To say it is one over the other is wrong. But without any particular Jewish significance to the age of fifty, I maintain that Jesus, was, in fact, not yet fifty. But close enough to it that 50 would have been the nearest round-number “benchmark”.
Show me the significance of the age of fifty in Jewish religious life of that time, and I will gladly change my opinion.
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adrift
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I underline the important part of your sentence.
John does not state Jesus age.
Do you think they knew when Jesus was born. You are applying todays mentality. Dates were unimportant to the average person. The fact that they say Jesus is not yet 50 does not mean He was near that age. There is no indication that they knew how old Jesus was.
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larsenl1
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Herod the Great died in 4 BC is a historical record. His kingdom was divided into quarters. Herod Antipas then ruled over Nazareth while Arthecholus (not sure I spelled it right) ruled over Jerusalem and Bethelem.aw, you guys are no help at all!!
I’m rejecting any idea that gives Mary other children. According to my Catholic faith, that’s heresy!! Though, Steve, thanks for taking time to give me such a lengthy response. I appreciate your thoughts.
Could anyone give me the date of Herod’s death?
Herod Antipas ruled northern Palestine until he died and I think that was in 39 AD.
So the amount of time Jesus and his mother and father were living in the Jewish colonies in Eastern Egypt depends on when he was born and that as you can see is not agreed upon.
But there is no doubt about the year that Herod the Great died. Also, the fact that he murdered members of his own family over fear that they were plotting against him lends credence to the Gospel account of the Slaughter of the Innocents.
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steve53
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Jesus was a semi-famous person. Age has always been important in every culture. Show me one where that metric was never used! Jesus’ age would have been common knowledge when he was alive, and nothing that needed to be hidden.
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adrift
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You are using modern day mind set.
Even in my parents time, 1909-1913, dates were not noted as we do today. My mother didn’t know when she was born until she turned 65. My father had two birth dates on his birth certificate. Only the upper class knew when they were born. There were no birth certificates are registering births. Most people didn’t know when they were born. It clearly states that Jesus was around 30. An exact age isn’t even given then but according to you they would know.
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steve53
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If you read Josephus, the only real Jewish historian we have for the Jewish world in early Christian Times, he is meticulous in stating the ages of the Roman Emperors and Jewish Kings, and the birthdates of many of their children.
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adrift
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steve53
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Thistle, you are condescending.
The people of ancient times were every bit as intelligent as we are, and had the same hopes and dreams and feelings as we do. Just as birthdays are important today, they would be so back then.
Josephus concentrated his works on the Kings, high-born, and the High Priests because they were thought to be touched by god for their exalted position. That’s why the dates were kept. That doesn’t mean that no one else kept a record of their family members, or knew how old they were.
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adrift
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I assume that you are addressing me as Thistel
I do not know why you need verbal attacks. :bowdown:Happy Birthday
We don’t know even today when Jesus was born.
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steve53
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I apologize, but it irritates me when it is suggested that people in ancient times were somehow mentally deficient when compared to people in “modern” times.I assume that you are addressing me as Thistel
Happy Birthday
We don’t know even today when Jesus was born.
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adrift
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Oh my I didn’t mean to imply because keeping track of time was different that people were mentally deficient. Definitely there was a different mind set but neither is superior to the other. You have a different opinion that was presented with a good argument. I differ and tried to offer my argument.
I don’t think there is anything more to offer. So have a good lent and God Bless you. I think I will fast from the internet for this lent.
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