Educating our children

[pentecostbaby]

The solution is to bust the unions. No easy task.

Can you explain why this would be effective (serious question, not trying to be rude)? As per the Cathecism, all workers have the right to unionize. I’m confused about how destroying an organization meant to ensure proper wages, benefits, and protections would help.

 

[cynic]

But wouldn’t the private schools “cherry pick” – take the best students and leave the problem students for the public schools?

Of course not! After all, you’re the one writing the rules. If you’re smart enough to figure they might do this, you’re also smart enough to write a standard to prevent them from doing it.

And what do you propose, forcing schools to take any student who wants to attend?

I don’t buy the market analogy. as if education could be treated just like the sale of any other goods and services. For example. how many schools can you have in one area to ensure adequate competition?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Can you explain why this would be effective (serious question, not trying to be rude)? As per the Cathecism, all workers have the right to unionize. I’m confused about how destroying an organization meant to ensure proper wages, benefits, and protections would help.

The kinds of unions we have – where people are forced to join and basically pay a kick-back to hold a job – are not the kind of unions the Catechism supports. The Catechism supports voluntary unions, where people also have the right not to join.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And what do you propose, forcing schools to take any student who wants to attend?

I don’t buy the market analogy. as if education could be treated just like the sale of any other goods and services. For example. how many schools can you have in one area to ensure adequate competition?

If you had only one school in an area, you’d be no worse off than you are now.

However, the plan includes additional funds to attract competition. In addition, no shackles are placed on schools – you might find a large, centralized school, several small schools, an internet-based school and so on, all serving the same area.

 

[teancum79]

I’ve been trying to address the overall educational problems with a large scale approach.

My ideas are as follows:

1. Fire everyone. Get rid of all middle education management.
2. have each state decide on the amount of money each child gets for their education. This money than goes to the school of the parents choice.
3. have each school run as an independent company with the job of education kids.
4. schools can make more money or lose money depending on how kids preform on well written assessments (not the pointless hoop jumping we do around my state).
5. encourage parents to be involved. Make helping kids be able to read write do math and think priorities.

6.Provide some extra funds for kids with specific disabilities.

Anyhow this is a work in progress.

any thoughts ?

 

[dranzal]

Please don’t hurt me…and please read more than just the title page before commenting…

schoolandstate.org/home.htm

They make some very good points.

Beyond that…

Homeschool! I answer to God alone.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Please don’t hurt me…and please read more than just the title page before commenting…

schoolandstate.org/home.htm

They make some very good points.

Beyond that…

Homeschool! I answer to God alone.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But to address the problems – and those raised in a previous post:

1. You can’t fire teachers and administrators. The teacher’s unions have been quite successful in making it so difficult to fire an incompetent teacher that bad teachers are just moved around.
2. Some states at the behest of the teachers unions are requiring homeschooling parents to have Teacher’s Certificates. States are also moving to make it illegal for parents to cooperatively school their children (banding together and sharing the work.)
3. In some states (Illinois is an example), attempts have been made to prosecute homeschoolers for child neglect if children do not score well in standardized tests. Note that teachers and administrators are never prosecuted for child neglect when their students score even lower.

 

[toekneemac]

KathleenElsie;3419315

So how do we correct this situation?

youtube.com/watch?v=87yq372R4Ts

 

[toekneemac]

I’ve been trying to address the overall educational problems with a large scale approach.

My ideas are as follows:

1. Fire everyone. Get rid of all middle education management.
2. have each state decide on the amount of money each child gets for their education. This money than goes to the school of the parents choice.
3. have each school run as an independent company with the job of education kids.
4. schools can make more money or lose money depending on how kids preform on well written assessments (not the pointless hoop jumping we do around my state).
5. encourage parents to be involved. Make helping kids be able to read write do math and think priorities.

6.Provide some extra funds for kids with specific disabilities.

Anyhow this is a work in progress.

any thoughts ?

Yeah. Forget it. You know who is gunna be elected and he is against everything you listed above. It aint gunna happen. It is an impossible war to fight. If you fight it their way.

 

[toekneemac]

graceandglory;3819702

Why are the teacher’s dues going into politics in the first place?

You are a conservative and didn’t even know it. (well maybe you did, but it seemed to fit)

 

[Gertabelle]

The Three-Paper Solution

On the first sheet: write the standards which you feel every school should meet. If you want a school to serve a hot lunch, write it down, and set standards so we can determine if the school is meeting the requirement. Similarly, if you want integrated schools, write standards for integration. Continue until you feel you have described all the standards a publicly-funded school should meet.

Vern, as a doctorate student in education, I read your paper with great interest. It’s a rather simplistic solution to very real problems. Your first sheet, for example, is the absolute very heart of the problem. It would be a piece of cake if we could all agree what the philosophy of our school system should be. Do you really think that the general public will be happy seeing THEIR tax dollars go to religious schools that are no more in line with their beliefs than your local public schools are in line with yours? The vast majority of families in this country do NOT have children currently in the public (or publicly funded schools).

When writing, remember – all schools which receive public funds will have to meet your requirements, not just “public schools” and not just “private schools receiving public funds.” Schools which cannot meet your standards – whether public or private – will not be eligible to receive public funding. Also remember – these will be the only public funds the school receives.

Again, schools which cannot meet WHOSE standards? Mine? Fine. But if these standards are created by the same old yahoos, forget it?

On the second sheet: write the standards which you feel every student should meet. Specify how well children should read at the end of each grade. Set standards for electives as well as mandatory subjects – for example, if a school has a course in carpentry or automotive repair, set standards for courses in those subjects.

Write your standards as objective, measurable standards. Tell what the students must do to prove the standards have been met.

:bigyikes: Excuse me? You have got to be kidding.

My district is currently rewriting everything – and I mean EVERYTHING in our curriculum. With an eye towards what each student needs to know and be able to do, as well as what is possible to teach in a given year, we are rewriting every single subject, with measurable levels for each content area. This is an enormous, and I mean absolutely ENORMOUS task.

We have a small group of teachers working on each subject area (K-12), and we spent all last year working on just getting that “objective, measurable standard” for each grade level. Next year, we will bring our work to the entire teaching community for revisions and working on “what the students must do” to demonstrate proficiency – and we’re working with some of the most knowledgeable and respected educational researchers in the nation.

But hey, you just go ahead and write those standards for every level of every content area – pre-K through grade 12. And if you’re thinking, “Hey, we can just use the national standards – what’s the big deal?” consider that some simple number crunching has shown that to teach ALL the standards in ALL the grade levels, our current system would have to be stretched from a K-12 to a K-22. But go ahead and tell everyone to just write it down on a piece of paper – yeah, that’ll work.
Thanks for the laugh.

Won’t poor children suffer?

No. Poor children will be better off under this plan than under the present “public school” system, because they will be able to attend any school they wish,. just as the children of more affluent parents can.

Again, you are showing a simplicity of thought that ignores research in the same way that our current public schools ignore research on what constitutes “best instructional practices.” You show a complete ignorance of the culture of poverty that our “poor children” live in. Sure, some of them have just hit hard times. But those whose families are in a cycle of poverty (what Ruby Payne, 2003, calls “generational poverty”) can’t just attend any school they wish. You assume their parents know what to look for, can just rearrange their schedules at their three jobs so they can get their children to some school miles from their home, that they can continue to pay the rent or stay rent-free in the home of a friend, lover, family member, etc.

My students move two or three times a year. They live with their uncle and grandpa, then their mother and boyfriend, then their grandma and older sister and her boyfriend. They stay alone in their home at night because mom has to spend all night getting their dad out of jail on bail. They sleep on the floor or on a mattress if they’re lucky. But yeah, their parents are gonna do research and find the best school and find a way to get their children there. I’d laugh if your ignorance and arrogance weren’t so heart-breaking.

 

[toekneemac]

Gertabelle;3830430

The vast majority of families in this country do NOT have children currently in the public (or publicly funded schools).

-]Say what? Are you serious?/-] Nevermind I see what you are saying

 

[neat62]

Have we as a society gone toooo far to be socially correct in our schools?

Teachers have little say over the actual subjects and how their unions regulate social and educational content in the system. So how do we correct this situation?

The best way to correct this problem is to abolish the Dept of Education…gain back local control over the schools…parents should have the authority, above ANYONE else.

Another solution…HOME SCHOOL! Take your children out of government run schools and teach them as you please at home. In the long run, you will have a better relationship with your children and your childrern will grow up more responsible and more accountable.

 

[dranzal]

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But to address the problems – and those raised in a previous post:

1. You can’t fire teachers and administrators. The teacher’s unions have been quite successful in making it so difficult to fire an incompetent teacher that bad teachers are just moved around.
2. Some states at the behest of the teachers unions are requiring homeschooling parents to have Teacher’s Certificates. States are also moving to make it illegal for parents to cooperatively school their children (banding together and sharing the work.)

Absolutely absurd!

1. In some states (Illinois is an example), attempts have been made to prosecute homeschoolers for child neglect if children do not score well in standardized tests. Note that teachers and administrators are never prosecuted for child neglect when their students score even lower.
   Nice double standard there. How presumptuous to think that my homeschooling goals are the same as their goals.

It’d be nice if we didn’t need to fire teachers. It’d be great if so many people simply withdrew their children, teachers had no job left.

 

[dranzal]

Here is a book I recommend looking for at the library, or even just purchasing. Then read it and pass it on…

amazon.com/Call-Brilliance-Inspire-Parents-Educators/dp/0977836908/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214044566&sr=8-1

We really must think outside the box. Here is part of the review from the website…

*The love for her child propels her on a journey that sweeps her own children, and the children around her, into a learning environment driven by joy, exuberance and passion instead of heartbreak and defeat. *
Unable to read until ages nine and ten, they entered college at eleven and twelve, became systems administrators, chief technology officers, trained with the Berlin Opera and Hamburg Ballet, created digital images used in the film “Lord of the Rings,” presented software solutions to TRW, Pac Bell, Industrial Light & Magic, NSA, Sony, and more, all before the ages of eighteen.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, as a doctorate student in education, I read your paper with great interest. It’s a rather simplistic solution to very real problems. Your first sheet, for example, is the absolute very heart of the problem. It would be a piece of cake if we could all agree what the philosophy of our school system should be. Do you really think that the general public will be happy seeing THEIR tax dollars go to religious schools that are no more in line with their beliefs than your local public schools are in line with yours? The vast majority of families in this country do NOT have children currently in the public (or publicly funded schools).

When did I say tax dollars should go to religious schools?

If I were asked, I would advise the Church not to take tax dollars, since this would give the government control of parochial schools.

Again, schools which cannot meet WHOSE standards? Mine? Fine. But if these standards are created by the same old yahoos, forget it?

By that you imply you cannot do the job. If that is so, then you have a moral obligation not to go into Public Education, since taking money for a job you know you cannot do is fraud.

:bigyikes: Excuse me? You have got to be kidding.

My district is currently rewriting everything – and I mean EVERYTHING in our curriculum. With an eye towards what each student needs to know and be able to do, as well as what is possible to teach in a given year, we are rewriting every single subject, with measurable levels for each content area. This is an enormous, and I mean absolutely ENORMOUS task.

We have a small group of teachers working on each subject area (K-12), and we spent all last year working on just getting that “objective, measurable standard” for each grade level. Next year, we will bring our work to the entire teaching community for revisions and working on “what the students must do” to demonstrate proficiency – and we’re working with some of the most knowledgeable and respected educational researchers in the nation.

But hey, you just go ahead and write those standards for every level of every content area – pre-K through grade 12. And if you’re thinking, “Hey, we can just use the national standards – what’s the big deal?” consider that some simple number crunching has shown that to teach ALL the standards in ALL the grade levels, our current system would have to be stretched from a K-12 to a K-22. But go ahead and tell everyone to just write it down on a piece of paper – yeah, that’ll work.
Thanks for the laugh.

Let me see – first you say you are doing it, and then you say it can’t be done.

Again, you are showing a simplicity of thought that ignores research in the same way that our current public schools ignore research on what constitutes “best instructional practices.” You show a complete ignorance of the culture of poverty that our “poor children” live in. Sure, some of them have just hit hard times. But those whose families are in a cycle of poverty (what Ruby Payne, 2003, calls “generational poverty”) can’t just attend any school they wish. You assume their parents know what to look for, can just rearrange their schedules at their three jobs so they can get their children to some school miles from their home, that they can continue to pay the rent or stay rent-free in the home of a friend, lover, family member, etc.

My students move two or three times a year. They live with their uncle and grandpa, then their mother and boyfriend, then their grandma and older sister and her boyfriend. They stay alone in their home at night because mom has to spend all night getting their dad out of jail on bail. They sleep on the floor or on a mattress if they’re lucky. But yeah, their parents are gonna do research and find the best school and find a way to get their children there. I’d laugh if your ignorance and arrogance weren’t so heart-breaking.

Several points:

1. With the proposition I offered, not all schools would be public schools (that is, the teachers and other staff would not be public employees.) Those schools would escape the corrosive bureaucratic miasmia that permeates the public schools.
2. The old, “We can’t do anything because of the parents” excuse brings me back to the point that if you can’t do the job, you commit fraud when you cash your paycheck.
3. The “But yeah, their parents are gonna do research and find the best school and find a way to get their children there” excuse is nonsensical. Parents make many critical choices for their children that the government isn’t involved in.

 

[KathleenElsie]

When did I say tax dollars should go to religious schools?

If I were asked, I would advise the Church not to take tax dollars, since this would give the government control of parochial schools.

By that you imply you cannot do the job. If that is so, then you have a moral obligation not to go into Public Education, since taking money for a job you know you cannot do is fraud.

Let me see – first you say you are doing it, and then you say it can’t be done.

Several points:

1. With the proposition I offered, not all schools would be public schools (that is, the teachers and other staff would not be public employees.) Those schools would escape the corrosive bureaucratic miasmia that permeates the public schools.
2. The old, “We can’t do anything because of the parents” excuse brings me back to the point that if you can’t do the job, you commit fraud when you cash your paycheck.
3. The “But yeah, their parents are gonna do research and find the best school and find a way to get their children there” excuse is nonsensical. Parents make many critical choices for their children that the government isn’t involved in.

Well said Vern. My grandkids are being homeschooled by my homeschooled kids. My kids, by the way, went on to university and graduated with highest honors. One daughter was a researcher on the Alzheimer’s Research project at UPMC. One son runs a multi million dollar machine shop that does work for Mellon. Not bad for unsocialized home educated kids. Each of our children are taxpaying, Mass going, law abiding citizens of the USA. Can you tell I am a proud mom?

What did it cost us to educated our kids? Around $600 a year for the family not per student. They received scholarships for their higher education due to their strong educational background in academics and volunteer work. We paid room and board. Our local school district says it costs them $12,000 per year per child + what the state gives them . Why?

 

[Gertabelle]

When did I say tax dollars should go to religious schools?

If I were asked, I would advise the Church not to take tax dollars, since this would give the government control of parochial schools.

Oops. Thanks for pointing out my error.

Originally Posted by Gertabelle
Again, schools which cannot meet WHOSE standards? Mine? Fine. But if these standards are created by the same old yahoos, forget it.

By that you imply you cannot do the job. If that is so, then you have a moral obligation not to go into Public Education, since taking money for a job you know you cannot do is fraud.

I am not implying in any way that I can’t do the job, and I have no idea how you got that from my questioning your proposition that we just shut down schools that don’t meet somebody’s standards. My question is “whose standards” are we using? You did not say if you were addressing your “three papers” philosophy to educators, or families, or business leaders, etc…

Your own paper, in fact, implies that anyone with three blank sheets of paper and a working pen can create their own school system. I think that’s a gross simplification of what is necessary to create a working school that has integrity and accountability. I also believe it is an incredible disservice to our children. Talk about fraud…

1. The old, “We can’t do anything because of the parents” excuse brings me back to the point that if you can’t do the job, you commit fraud when you cash your paycheck.
2. The “But yeah, their parents are gonna do research and find the best school and find a way to get their children there” excuse is nonsensical. Parents make many critical choices for their children that the government isn’t involved in.

Huh? And government involvement has what to do with families in generational poverty not being willing/able to research the best schools?

Vern, before you propose ANY changes in education, you need to know the circumstances of the children for whom you will be working. The kids with parents who view education with the same value as the teachers probably would be put in better schools in your system.

But you don’t seem to understand that the children from generational poverty have a distinctly different culture from yours or mine. Their view of relationships, education, and money are as real to them as your views are to you.

Do I dare to ask whether you’ve even read Ruby Payne’s book (2003)? (or any other book on education or educational practices or educational research – or are you one of those “experts” who think you know everything because you were once in the school system?)

I look at the whole picture, acknowledge the differences and my own assumptions, and work my rear end off to get these kids to see a way into a new culture – one in which education is a tool, in which they have choices, etc. For most of them, this will require the severing of many significant relationships, which is no small thing.

One bright high school student in my district was told by his father to drop out of high school and become a janitor – “It’s good enough for me, and it’s good enough for you.” The boy dropped out. This is the culture of generational poverty, a distinctly different value of education and life/career choice.

With regard to accusing me of making excuses and not being able to do the job – well if that doesn’t show some arrogance, I don’t know what does. And just to be clear, I have 11 years experience teaching in the public schools. One cannot get into a doctorate program in education without teaching experience. (probably because we wouldn’t qualify for the massive loans without a job!)

My district is now challenging every single way of doing things, from the top down. This is a whole community project, involving families, students, educators, business leaders.

Unlike your overly-simplistic system of the three blank sheets of paper, our district did not assume the task would be simple and immediate. For the sake of our students, we are taking the time to create the structures to support this new system.

We are educating staff, families and students; we are training staff and administrators in best instructional practices; we are collecting and analyzing meaningful data at all levels; we are painstakingly crafting those standards you say we should just write down on that one blank page; we are setting goals and timelines for all stakeholders in the system, and we will be carefully monitoring two “flagship” schools in the district who will be implementing the first steps in this system in August. I’m focusing my dissertation research on this new system.

But feel free to keep calling me an imcompetent fraud. It’s probably the best you can come up with, given that my credentials, experience, and commitment have all been put to the test for years – not to mention the fact that I continue to pursue this work as my God-given vocation, knowing that HE put me in the thick of all this, and will give me the strength, courage, knowledge, and most of all love to fulfill His holy will.

And what exactly are your educational credentials, Vern?

 

[Gertabelle]

Well said Vern. My grandkids are being homeschooled by my homeschooled kids. My kids, by the way, went on to university and graduated with highest honors. One daughter was a researcher on the Alzheimer’s Research project at UPMC. One son runs a multi million dollar machine shop that does work for Mellon. Not bad for unsocialized home educated kids. Each of our children are taxpaying, Mass going, law abiding citizens of the USA. Can you tell I am a proud mom?

I’m hoping that your agreement with Vern did not include his bashing of my character and ability as an educator

My son’s godmother is homeschooling her son, and my son’s babysitter homeschooled her youngest son all through high school. I have dear friends who homeschooled, and I have had students who were pulled from our system to be homeschooled (I congratulated those mothers on giving their children such a precious gift). I have nothing but good to say about homeschooling – it is a method near and dear to my heart, and if anything I posted led you to believe otherwise (since Vern’s post was in reply to mine), I do apologize.

I am a public school teacher, and as much as I love homeschooling, I know there will always be a need for public schools. So God called me to be part of making them the best they can be, and to shine His light in them. And, thanks be to God, I am part of a beautiful group of Christians in my school who know that teaching these children and working with their families is a ministry and a calling. Right there in our public school, we have met (outside contract hours) and prayed together for our school, our students and their families, and all the people who work in our schools.

Again, I apologize if anything I said in my post was hurtful to you.

Gertie

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am a public school teacher, and as much as I love homeschooling, I know there will always be a need for public schools. So God called me to be part of making them the best they can be, and to shine His light in them. And, thanks be to God, I am part of a beautiful group of Christians in my school who know that teaching these children and working with their families is a ministry and a calling. Right there in our public school, we have met (outside contract hours) and prayed together for our school, our students and their families, and all the people who work in our schools. Your needing to pray outside of contract hours is one of many reasons why we homeschool. To have to hide your faith from the children is one of the saddest things ever to happen in our country.

Again, I apologize if anything I said in my post was hurtful to you. No you have not offended me personally. The fact is that God when forced to be absent for any entity is offensive to me.