Education Required for Religious Education?

[TPJCatholic]

I think a thorough test, along with a mandatory signing of an oath of loyalty is all that is needed to insure we have good Catechists. Paying Catechsits is NOT the right thing to do…this should be a ministry of love, not a ministry of pay. When people cannot pass the test, then there should be classes they can take to get them up to speed.

I was a Catechist for 9 years…testing of the Catechists and the students is something that should be done regularly, imo. I used to develop tests for my classes, you would be shocked to know how little those kids understood…but those tests gave me insight on what to work on.

 

[MariaG]

posted by Br. Rich SFO

Jesus speaking to Andrew and Peter at their boat.
Jesus: Hello Peter
Peter: Hello
Jesus: Where did you get your degree in Marine fisheries.
Peter: I don’t have a degree. I’m just a simple fisherman
Jesus: Oh, um, I’ll let you get back to your nets, have a nice day.
Jesus: Andrew what degree do you have?
Andrew: I’m simply a fisherman too.
Jesus Oh, um, ok
Jesus: Has anyone here studied Greek under the Pharisee Gamaliel and is well versed in rabbinical principles?

This was on post #4 for his full view that is not completely represented through this, but is an important thing to remember. The apostles did not have full education and know all the particulars, they were just willing to follow Jesus and learn.

posted by puzzleannie
I offered my suggestion for those who find themselves in that situation because they volunteered to fill a need, and feel that they are inadequately prepared. You can’t stop and get all the theology you need, but you can prepare to teach next weeks lesson, and in the process learn what the catechism and scripture have to say about the topics covered in the grade you are teaching.

This is a good suggestion. I teach older kids, so I always start off the year and remind them during and at the end, that if anytime during this class or in the future, if I told them something that contradicts the Bible telling them that it was the teaching of the Catholic Church that
1. I was wrong.
2. You heard or remember wrong.
There is nothing in the Catholic teachings that contradicts the Bible.

I also tell them that learning all the teachings of the Catholic Church, of Christ, are a lifelong process and I do not have all the answers.

All the knowledge in the world will not help if we don’t reach the heart as well.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[puzzleannie]

don’t lose sight of the heart of patjoes message - if the bishops don’t make RE (and seminary formation, and theology teaching in Catholic colleges in their jurisdiction, and who is running diocesan catechics offices, and content of preaching) in their diocese a top priority, it remains what it is today, a low priority. We will continue the trend that started in the 70s, poor, indadequate or downright heretical catechesis, another generation of adults who do not know and practice the basics of the Catholic faith and fall prey to every “relevant” or “feel good” cult that comes knocking at their door.

Instead of $100 for a tape recorder for each of 16 classrooms (and who is going to pay me to listen to 32 hours of classroom activity each week, I only get paid to work 40 hours) give me that money to run adult education programs to education every adult, especially every parent in my parish.

 

[kmktexas]

puzzleannie:

maybe you have seminaries with built in RE teachers where you are, but our diocesan seminary is brand new, and taxed to educate the seminarians they have. The teachers are priests who all have their own parishes and other diocesan duties, and little free time to run around to parishes giving classes to catechists. In any case, if you believe a lot of other posters on these forums, the seminaries in many areas are doing and abominable job of forming priests, so surely cannot be trusted to form lay catechists. (ours was started just to make sure our prospective priests have a solid, reliable place to study and begin their formation)

All our priests and deacons are filling other diocesan assignments, as well as their parish duties, and manfully working on properly forming the adults in their parishes for RE as well as other ministries.

I have to agree here. At last count, our seminary had 19 men in formation. Figure that 1/3 are already ordained as deacons and fulfilling those duties, that doesn’t leave many men to teach CCE in a large far-flung diocese.

I can’t even imagine paying CCE teachers (or taking money to teach CCE, for that matter). Even our DRE is a volunteer. And we don’t pay our music people either. If your parish has extra money lying around, Patjoe, maybe it should look at bringing Catechist training in house. That would probably be more cost effective than monitoring equipment or paying the teachers. You might be able to require religion teachers from the Catholic schools to teach, but you would have to pay them and at an overtime rate besides. The requirement would only be enforcable for diocisan schools anyway and there are precious few of those. Forget about the nuns or college professors too. We don’t have any nuns or Catholic colleges on our side of the diocese.

I don’t doubt your sincerity but you seem to be casting aspersions on Religious Ed teachers who do not have specialized certifications. If you have a good textbook, support from the pastor and teachers who believe what the Church teaches, you can go a long way. By making it harder for someone to “qualify” as a teacher, you drastically shrink your pool of teachers. Then what happens is either A) the parish turns religious ed into a home study course, with no monitoring or training at all or B) the parish goes to “whole family catechesis” where all of the already orthodox kids go to religious ed with their already orthodox families and the ones with less catechized parents stay home and get nothing. (Depending on the program, you could substitute the word “heterodox” for orthodox" here and have the same effect). I have seen both of those scenarios in neighboring parishes, rationalized by lack of teachers.

And lastly,

for my parish that means make sure no one steals the chalk!

You guys must be rolling in money, serendipity, you have chalk!!! But seriously, our teachers buy virtually all of the supplies we need in class.

 

[serendipity]

There is only one seminary in this state and it is no where near us. I don’t think these issues can have such a uniform approach, because not all states have access to the same resources, nor do even the same parishes within the same states.

As far as requiring people have degress…it is a crock. Degees do not really qualify any one for bening able to anything well except for playing some game with a system. I have a few degrees myself. What is more important is that people relate well with the kids and have a desire and interest to teach. The knowledge can can be acquired along the way, and some one properly motivated will be active in doing so.

And Proud army Wife…sounds like you are doing a great job. You too Annie. I wish the teachers I had expressed such knowlwedge, such enthusiasma nd such care for the kids. I am soooo lucky that I was able to attend a Catholic school until the the age of confirmation, when my parents moved, and that I only needed to rely on that church’s faith formation process for the conformation classes, because it was terrible. If stundents asked questions the most-heard answer was " you dont’ need to knwo that." Or that won’t be on any test. Deplorable! My siblings who spent more time in it, left the church.

 

[Patjoe]

serendipity,

You have made my point! Kids leave the Church when they are not taught properly!

One does not need a “degree” in anything to which I am referring. Just good instruction in good instruction of the Faith. Some kids are lucky to have annie and our proudarmywife who were educated to the hilt before they answered the call to educate our youth in the Faith. Others are not quite so lucky, although they may have highly motivated teachers; others have no teachers or some who are totally unqualified.

Motivation is not the problem most of the time. It is quite apparent just from this thread that there is a jumble of incohesive and incoherent approaches to religious education. That probably stems from the haphazard way in which education outside of parochial schools was accomplished those many decades ago to get at least a little knowledge into the heads of those who were given permission to attend free public schools.

But as you have pointed out so marvelously from your own experience, the non-system that was devised has cost the Church countless members and perhaps has led to the loss of many, many souls. The world, the flesh, and the devil have stepped in where the Church was negligent in its duty. No one who has given lovingly of their time should be put in the middle of this mess. I wonder how many bishops have recognized what is going on. Surely most of them have, since most have served their time in parishes and have had to deal with RE.

A paid teacher is not necessarily a bad teacher. The reason we need to pay is so that we can attract potentially good teachers who, without recompense, would not be able to give of their time, and to serve as a motivation to those who are just plain reluctant. I don’t know how we can get the money to pay teachers.

We pay our parochial school teachers and on the whole that has not been deleterious. We were able to find a way to put together that system and it has worked for a long time. I don’t know if we can charge parents for RE. It would seem that the only negative in that is that some parents would just not send their kids if they had to pay. There could be scholarships for those unable to pay.

The only certainty in this is that overall it is a mess. Each parish manages RE by the seat of its pants, so to speak. No wonder the kids in some of these classes don’t take seriously what they are being taught.

 

[TPJCatholic]

patjoe,

Paying is NOT the answer.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Patjoe:

… In my opinion, not just anyone who is willing to do so can teach that subject. Take, for example, our very good-willed forum member who teaches a third-grade RE class and who does not know the difference between angels and saints …

That is not a fair nor accurate representation – the woman asked for clarification with regards to St. Michael the Archangel as to how he was an angel but had the title of “Saint” and that question was answered for her. Nowhere did she express confusion as to what an angel was and what a saint was.

Patjoe:

… If any priest, deacon, seminarian, lay person has an ounce of energy, it must be dedicated to the education of our children …

What about ministering to the poor, to the needy, etc.

Patjoe:

… If there is a nun in a hospital taking care of the sick, she should spend one or two hours on Sunday in a RE classroom …

Let me get this straight, are you saying that teaching a RE class should come before taking care of the sick? I have to disagree ESPECIALLY if a RE class can be taught by a volunteer.

Patjoe:

… College professors (screen them if you don’t trust them) should be turning down the invitations to parties and going directly to parish classrooms instead …

And if they don’t comply, what are you going to do? Terminate them? And if you then have a shortage, how will you fill that shortage?

Patjoe:

… We must put our money, our sweat, our thoughts, all of our people into this effort. We cannot rely on the parish bulletin to recruit. Our bishops – the good ones – must go out and bring back the brightest and the best to teach. They must tap their money resources in the community-at-large to donate big bucks toward salaries for RE’s …

And where is this money going to come from when many dioceses find themselves in financial difficulties and are even being forced to close churches that have been around for many decades? The church where my children were baptized, the church where I was baptized, the church where I was married in, the church where my parents were married in, is being closed down by the Bishop after 118 years of service to the community.

Patjoe:

… we need to pay the religious education teachers …

With what money?

Patjoe:

… There could even be monitoring equipment in each classroom …

Monitoring equipment is expensive. Where’s the money going to come from and who is going to sit there and monitor each of these classes?

Patjoe:

… Monitor by tape recorder, not video. You can get one for less than $100. Have tapes that can be reviewed during the week and point out errors …

Who is going to sit there and listen to these tapes?

Patjoe:

… Most kids really want to teach – they glory in the fact that they are in charge; they love being looked up to …

What age level are you talking about here? I can’t see even 8th graders being expected to “teach” a yonger class. ‘Teaching’ isn’t as easy as it might seem.

Patjoe:

… we could go back to requiring that Catholic parents put their children in Catholic schools …

And what will you do to those that don’t comply?

Patjoe:

… our bishops could boycott graduates from same unless each individual proves his allegiance to Rome …

And when word gets out about this, those colleges and universities will not be able to attract future students forcing them to cut back or even close down.

 

[kmktexas]

Some kids are lucky to have annie and our proudarmywife who were educated to the hilt before they answered the call to educate our youth in the Faith. Others are not quite so lucky, although they may have highly motivated teachers;

I have to disagree here. Especially about the use of “before”. I am a good example. I am the product of really poor (after 4th grade) religious ed from the 70s. At the time I was “volunteered” to the Religious Ed program, I was a lapsed (for 24 years) Catholic trying to find my way back. Having to stand up in front of kids and “teach” the faith was the real push I needed to come back. I have spent the last four years immersing myself in orthodox Catholic teaching and (sorry to toot my own horn) am considered one of the Catechism and Liturgy “experts” amoung the group of CCE teachers.

Another good example is the women who will likely become our next DRE. She is a convert who did her RCIA with our very liberal ex-pastor. After she started teaching CCE, she too started absorbing more and more orthodox teaching, thanks in no small part to our orthodox pastor. Now (not before), other than the DRE, she has the most “credited” catechist training under her belt and is particulary adept at spotting problem areas in the printed material and offering work-arounds for the teachers to keep on track with true Church teaching.

A highly motivated teacher, with a good guide (pastor or DRE) is a true asset to the classroom and the kids are lucky to have him/her.

On the other hand, we have Permanent Deacons in our diocese who I would never let teach my kids unless I was there taking notes at the ready to correct their errors. Nor would I send my kids to CCE with most of the nuns you see on TV and in the news. Both have plenty of credentials but are in no way appropriate teachers for our children.

I absolutely agree with you that our diocese need to reasses their priorities for how money is spent. Religious ed is way too far down on the priority list and adult religious ed is practically invisible on the list. For the most part, this has to be diocisan, not at the parish level. Our diocese takes so much in assessments that there is little left at the parish level to go around for utilities, supplies and maintenance, let alone the CCE program.

 

[puzzleannie]

Patjoe:

serendipity,

We pay our parochial school teachers and on the whole that has not been deleterious. We were able to find a way to put together that system and it has worked for a long time. .

have you any direct experience with a Catholic school in the last 30 years, or even worse, a so-called “Catholic” college. Deleterious is the most charitable word I can think of for the effect many of these paid teachers of religion have had on the faith of our children and families.

 

[Patjoe]

Sir Knight, colleges that have been doing work that has to be boycotted should be closed.

Our youth are our most immediate, number one priority. When they are taught properly, they will take care of the poor. Meanwhile, we must do both. Nuns can take care of the sick AND help in educating our youth, until the crisis is over. They can be part of a team.

Which do you value more, your parish or your children? We will have to find a solution to educating our children, even if parishes must be closed to pay for it. If there are volunteers, use them; but educate them so that our children will actually learn and be inspired Catholics. The latter may be more important than the former, since an inspired person will educate him/herself, as we have seen in this thread.

Recorders could be randomly placed in classrooms where the teacher is new or has had complaints. Perhaps the high school and college students could monitor the tapes. When I was referring to “kids,” I meant, of course, just those kids – not grade schoolers. I am not recommending terminating anyone who does not teach RE. I am just trying to list places and people where RE teachers can be found. With the promise of pay, maybe every qualified Catholic who is now teaching elsewhere will also be able to spend part of their Sundays with our kids (NOW I mean the grade schoolers!).

Look, I am probably out of touch with our Catholic education, as puzzleannie has pointed out (she could have been a little bit kinder in doing so). It is obvious that there is a problem, maybe much deeper than anyone can possibly comprehend. Our Faith is in real trouble in the United States.

If we had enough truly motivated people in our parishes, RE would never be a problem. We could trust that the many people who would volunteer would be educated and loyal and would keep up with the challenge. As it is, some, perhaps most, parishes have to beg for volunteers and some of those who step forward are just not qualified. As has been said here, some are downright unqualified and un-Orthodox. There does not seem to be a difference in this area between paid parochial-school teachers and volunteer RE teachers. That is a BIG problem.

Many of our colleges and universities are not turning out young adults who love their Faith; in fact, they are turning out students who have beliefs that are contrary to the tenets of our religion. Boycotting seems to be a solution to that problem. Parents: don’t send your child to Notre Dame, period! Sentimentality be damned! Football and a beautiful campus just are not sufficient reasons to endanger your child’s Faith and eternal future! I think that parents who care enough to send their children to Catholic colleges want them to be educated in the Faith and would react to a strong anti-PR campaign against those schools that have turned bad.

Aside from the obvious differences, it is as important to educate those who teach our children in RE as it is to train our priests. RE teachers form the young minds. How can it be more acceptable to hear heresy in the classroom than from the pulpit? It is probably even more grievous, since “pulpit-hearers” should be able to discern the truth if they have a proper foundation in the Faith.

Everyone who comes to this Forum is already aware that things are not right out there. We complain constantly about many things. We need to come up with solutions: figuratively speaking, the Chinese are arming up and they are on the border of Taiwan. How do we stop the madness?!? I have set out one war plan. You have shot it down. Come up with your own. Let’s drop the bomb on the doors of the bishops – the good ones! – and wake them up! Tell them that we cannot wait for political solutions. The best news of this would be that we would not have to refer to “good” and “bad” bishops anymorehttp://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Happy Ides of March, everyone, and happy birthday, Daddy. Hope you are enjoying the day up there with Mom and Jesus and Mary!