Edward Feser on Capital Punishment

[fide]

I agree there is no perfect human penitentiary system in the world. There is always the risk of escape and the security guards are certainly in a sometimes dangerous situation.

However we must work with what we have, there are many mechanisms and tools available today to properly manage the risk from convicts.

What I sadly do not hear today, in our current moral teachings, is the recognition of that fact which you acknowledge: Prisons are NOT fail-safe. Prisons do NOT assure protection from predators, even when given the maximum “life without parole”. Instead, I hear the ideological, unrealistic untrue presumption:

more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens

The entire argument against the death penalty for any case, for any crime is false. An ideological position based on a natural, human sense of mercy, having no firm foundation at all, is replacing the traditional comprehensive understanding of justice which has been discarded.

I am very concerned, very troubled by what is happening in our Church - this is merely one example of it, but every instance is important. The world lost in darkness does not need, nor will be helped by, one more “dumbed down and modernized” adaptation of the Christian Faith.

 

[fide]

“Life imprisonment” gives a criminal NOTHING more to fear

The death penalty does give the murderer motivation - greatly increased with a sense of urgency - to repent and believe the Gospel of LIFE.

Thus the “good thief” on his cross alongside the Cross of Jesus:

Luk 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
Luk 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
Luk 23:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[Elf01]

The death penalty does give the murderer motivation - greatly increased with a sense of urgency - to repent and believe the Gospel of LIFE .

It may, but if that only happens around the time of execution there may be plenty of time with no motivation.

 

[John10]

more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens

This is still for the most part true, exceptions to the rule are precisely that. What you are saying is not achievable in our world, because everything we do will always be imperfect however we must still do what we can and work toward the common good with the limitations that we have.

Prisons and penitentiary systems for the most part offer security to citizens while not needing to kill the convicts.

 

[fide]

The death penalty does give the murderer motivation - greatly increased with a sense of urgency - to repent and believe the Gospel of LIFE .

Explain your point, please.

 

[fide]

I agree with some of your data, and totally disagree with your conclusions. Could you share with me your political leanings generally?

 

[MikeInVA]

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes.

Whatt has changed in our awareness of the dignity of the human person since St. Thomas Aquinas wrote the Summa?

In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state.

What exactly is this new understanding?

 

[MikeInVA]

Prisons and penitentiary systems for the most part offer security to citizens while not needing to kill the convicts.

So if new technology arises that makes it easier for a prisoner to escape the catechism will be revised?

 

[Ender]

Prisons and penitentiary systems for the most part offer security to citizens while not needing to kill the convicts.

I really wish you would address the point that I have several times made that protection is not the primary objective of punishment, and that even if the death penalty is not needed for safety reasons that does not mean it is not “needed”. The real question is whether it is the appropriate punishment as far as justice is concerned.

 

[Elf01]

Explain your point, please.

If I understand your point correctly you are saying that a prisoner serving life has no reason not to attack another inmate or guard if the death penalty is not an option.

I’m saying, that without repentance the same is true of a prisoner on death row.

The rest of your point seens to assume that facing death will lead to repentance. That may be true for some, but I would imagine that that would happen close to the execution date and the time from conviction to execution can be quite long. It also won’t happen in every case.

 

[goout]

John10:

Prisons and penitentiary systems for the most part offer security to citizens while not needing to kill the convicts.

So if new technology arises that makes it easier for a prisoner to escape the catechism will be revised?

What if it is.
What so many can’t wrap their heads around is that the object of the Church’s moral teaching has never changed. Human life is sacred. Every life. Human justice is not the highest value.

And if you don’t evaluate this issue with the proper moral focus you get what we have here: people dancing in circles.

 

[John10]

Politically I go with whoever more closely resemble Catholic Church teachings.

 

[John10]

I’ve explained these in a previous post.

 

[John10]

Probably because it was revised now and the Church does consider penitentiary systems better equipped to deal with convicts than before, that prompted Pope Francis to make some changes to the Catechism.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Capital Punishment is not intrinsically evil, and the Catholic Church was not wrong for having supported it’s use in the past.

The only issues are whether it is prudent, or necessary, to use capital punishment today.

 

[John10]

The real question is whether it is the appropriate punishment as far as justice is concerned.

From the Catechism:

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

I would say the Church is clearly stating that although permitted, in practice its use is rarely justified.

 

[Ender]

Human life is sacred. Every life. Human justice is not the highest value.

How do we know human life is sacred? Because Scripture tells us that man is made in God’s image. God himself tells us that…while explaining that this is the very reason that a murderer forfeits his own life. It is because life is sacred that someone who unjustly takes it forfeits his own life. It is the sacredness of life that God identifies as the justification for his command.

Gn 9:6 "Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

What this passage states is that the life of a murderer is lost because the life of his victim was sacred. This is now being interpreted as meaning the life of a murderer is secure because his life is sacred. If human life was sacred in the absolute sense you interpret it then there would be no justification even for killing in self defense, let alone in war.

If your interpretation was correct then the church and all of her Fathers, Doctors, popes and Magisterium for 2000 years failed to recognize that human life was sacred, because there is no getting around the fact that she actively defended the morality of capital punishment for at least that long.

 

[fide]

No that was not my point, that the death penalty would lead to repentance - but it could, as it did for the “good thief” on his cross beside Jesus. Have you ever wondered why that scene is included in the Gospel? Why, in particular, his last expression to his fellow convict was included:

Luk 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

Note the assertions here:

1. This man, facing God, feared God!
2. He acknowledged his own sin, his guilt, and the justice that was being served by his sentence!
3. And he recognized the injustice of the Innocent One dying beside him, dying in an extraordinary, holy way…

Question:
Would he have repented if he had been taught the error that there is no concern for justice on God’s part - only mercy? That God is entirely, wholly mercy? No matter your guilt - your death here on the cross has no meaning, no value, no merit before God no matter how you receive it? You’re fine with god either way.

In other words, if he had been taught and if he had believed a humanistic, false gospel of a false god of false mercy, would he - could he - have repented?

Think of these truths:

Job 28:28 And he said to man, ‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.’"
…

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who practice it. His praise endures for ever!
…
Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
…
Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
…
Prov 15:33 The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility goes before honor.

 

[goout]

Sorry. Fail.
Cherry picked quotes from Genesis are not the full expression of the Church’s Magisterium.

 

[Elf01]

In other words, if he had been taught and if he had believed a humanistic, false gospel of a false god of false mercy, would he - could he - have repented?

Personally I think his repentance was caused by encountering Jesus, not by being sentanced to death.