EF a different rite than OF, some say.

[rben20]

In the old Roman basilicas, the altar was not designed to “face the people,” but to face true East, and it was the practice of the people to turn around to face East during the Mass of the Faithful. This centuries deal of versus populum claimed by the poster as truth is simply false. The Pope has always celebrated facing East. I highly recommend to check out Msgr. Klaus Gamber in his excellent book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Would you please explain why it is misguided and ignorant?

Did you read the post to which it was referring?

St. Peter’s is built “backwards”, so to speak, so that the people face west instead of east when they face the alter. Consequently, ad orientem and versus populum orientations are identical.

 

[Cristiano]

St. Peter’s is built “backwards”, so to speak, so that the people face west instead of east when they face the alter. Consequently, ad orientem and versus populum orientations are identical.

I know that very well but the person that wrote the comment about St. Peter (Jgudiel) wrote that because a previous poster was justifying ad orientem as an opposition to versus populum. The comment was emphasizing that with the prayers ad orientem the priest would not be distracted by the congregation. The origin of the prayers ad orientem has nothing to do with the congregation and Jgudiel was making that point. Now people jumping at him for the comment about St. Peter should be more active in correcting the thinking of the primary poster.

 

[rben20]

…
Did you read the post to which it was referring?

Yes, it was an opinion. Not much to get worked up over.

 

[curlycool89]

Really misguided and ignorant comment. Pope continues to face east to this day. It is in the layout of the Basilica and had nothing to do with Ad populum…but please carry on with popcorn eating

Oh, it was largely this whole thread that inspired the popcorn eating. People can get pretty, err, fired up (we’ll say) about these things.

 

[maryjk]

Just wondering, is the Mass still valid if the Consecration was done without the Epiclesis?
And on a different occasion, the Words of Consecration for the Bread was said wrong but for the wine correctly, is the Mass still valid, and so there was only one Eucharistic Species in that case?

You might want to start a new thread, so as to not take this one off topic.

 

[Jegudiel]

Well in the Latin Rite Church, we have the Ambrosian rite, the Mozarabic rite, the Dominican rite, the monastic rite, to name a few off the top of my head. It gets confusing especially as the Church has variously applied all these terms. Even more so as the use is subtly different in different languages. The EF and OF are sufficiently different in liturgy, lectionary and liturgical year so that it’s fair to say they are different (lower-case) rites of the same Rite.

It’s probably more accurate to say they are different rites of the same sui juris Church, the Western Church which in fact is an amalgam of active and defunct rites. We say “monastic rite” when in fact the modern monastic rite is a lot closer to the OF than the EF is.

So basically this discussion has the flavor of “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”.

Keep in mind that the different sui juris churches of the Eastern Side of the Church were most typically very different in terms of culture, geography, etc. That distinction cannot be made for the OF vs. EF Mass.

While some desperately want to divide the Western Church into the “OF church” (cringe) and “EF church” (even bigger cringe) that’s not how things are. Further there is ONE Mass with more than one form. The OF and the EF are the exact same rite – just two different forms of the Mass.

 

[Jegudiel]

Really misguided and ignorant comment. Pope continues to face east to this day. It is in the layout of the Basilica and had nothing to do with Ad populum…but please carry on with popcorn eating

So you say. How terribly judgmental of you.

I think there are very real positives to versus populum. If ad orientum was intrinsically superior, I am quite sure St. Peter’s would have been designed around that configuration.

 

[ProVobis]

The OF that I go to is in a Benedictine monastery in Gregorian chant. I have been to plenty of reverent OF Masses in Latin, French, English, Spanish, German and Italian.

The OF Mass is the principle Mass of the Church whether you like it or not.

Yes, but many if not most Anglophones treat the English Mass as the principle Mass of the Church. You seldom if ever see “OF” on bulletins and Church signs because it’s meaningless to them.

 

[Jegudiel]

I think that trying to differentiate the OF and the EF as two separate rites is just simple ignorance or dishonest choice to thrive on ignorance. I am amazed by how many Catholics try to justify their preferences by coming out with pop liturgy, pop history, and pop theology and trying to make them look as rigorous. I have quite strong preferences in regard to the liturgy and how the liturgy affects my spirituality but I would feel quite arrogant to justify my preferences based on anything but my personal religiosity and spirituality. I just know that the more I read about the liturgy the more I understand how fluid things have been and can be. I have the impression that often Catholics look at the OF and EF just as a lot of Americans look at the democratic party and the republican party, they just take a side and espouse it just because they just want to be on one side and pick a fight no matter what the details are about.

I agree. I think for some it’s an attempt to divide the Church, or at least the Latin Rite.

I think far too many who attack the OF Mass have no real sense of history. They experience legitimate problems in the celebration of the OF Mass and their response is to become reactionary. They strive for “the good old days” which usually means an idealized view of the EF Mass as celebrated in the USA in 1960.

 

[Jegudiel]

Yes, but many if not most Anglophones treat the English Mass as the principle Mass of the Church. You seldom if ever see “OF” on bulletins and Church signs.

“English Mass?”

Are you speaking of the Anglican-Use Mass or the actual Anglican Protestant worship service?

 

[SingaporeanGirl]

Just wondering, is the Mass still valid if the Consecration was done without the Epiclesis?
And on a different occasion, the Words of Consecration for the Bread was said wrong but for the wine correctly, is the Mass still valid, and so there was only one Eucharistic Species in that case?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Aside

It’s a discussion we constantly have on this forum. Some feel that the term Novus Ordo shouldn’t be used at all. Some say that is what most people use in real life.

Some feel we should always use "Ordinary Form (OF) for the Novus Ordo or Extraordinary Form (EF) for the TLM.

But that’s another topic.

Apropos nothing:

I am likewise on record as believing the terms “Extraordinary Form/EF” and “Ordinary Form/OF” are stoopid too.


tee

 

[ProVobis]

“English Mass?”

Are you speaking of the Anglican-Use Mass or the actual Anglican Protestant worship service?

I’ve only heard of those two, never been to one, don’t even know where they are.

The “normal” (most used) Mass in the U.S. is the English OF, though, as I said, you don’t see the “OF” on bulletins or Mass times.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I think far too many who attack the OF Mass have no real sense of history. They experience legitimate problems in the celebration of the OF Mass and their response is to become reactionary. They strive for “the good old days” which usually means an idealized view of the EF Mass as celebrated in the USA in 1960.

I do not have an idealized view of the Mass (it was not the EF then) as celebrated in 1960. I simply compare my experiences of the OF as commonly celebrated and the EF as commonly celebrated. It’s not about 1960. It’s about the way things are today, in 2012.

• PAX

 

[Jegudiel]

Quite simply because no one in my facebook circle of friends uses the OF as people here seem to use. It has always been EF and NO in all conversations on fb if that sheds some light? And the OF (as they term it), has always been subjected to liturgical abuse for the most part of it that I go for. Therefore, it is not quite hard to imagine them trying to have their more modern form, with the change in the words used at Mass, ‘personalised’ liturgical gestures… hippy hoppy clapping hands. What OF is supposed to be like that?

But I won’t deny the rarer occasions when I get the OF for what it is supposed to be like.

Notice how you try to justify your actions? Rather than thinking “whoops, I can see how some people would find the use of ‘novus ordo’ and especially ‘NO’ highly offensive, I’ll simply start using ‘OF Mass’” you dig-in and try to defend your actions. It’s that obstinate behavior that makes me believe you are using the terms on purpose to either offend others or demean the OF Mass. That and comments like “hippy hoppy.”

You already correctly use “EF.” There is not even a change in the number of keystrokes to go from “NO” to “OF.” I seriously doubt this is the first time you have heard this given the tenor of your postings.

 

[Jegudiel]

Notice how you try to justify your actions? Rather than thinking “whoops, I can see how some people would find the use of ‘novus ordo’ and especially ‘NO’ highly offensive, I’ll simply start using ‘OF Mass’” you dig-in and try to defend your actions. It’s that obstinate behavior that suggests to me that’s your doing what you are doing on purpose.

You already correctly use “EF.” There is not even a change in the number of keystrokes to go from “NO” to “OF.” I seriously doubt this is the first time you have heard this given the tenor of your postings.

 

[Jegudiel]

I’ve only heard of those two, never been to one, don’t even know where they are.

The “normal” (most used) Mass in the U.S. is the English OF, though, as I said, you don’t see the “OF” on bulletins or Mass times.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, pardon me! You mean the typical Mass in the vernacular (usually English) here in the USA. LOL! Sorry about that. “English” had me thinking of the UK and the Anglican-use Mass here in parts of the USA.

 

[thewanderer]

Jegudial, why are you trying to turn this into a discussion about the terminology for the mass? This thread was about whether the EF and OF are different rites, which has been answered, no they are not.

While I can understand why the terminology NO can be taken, and even intended, to be dismissive of the OF… but the same can be said of the Ordinary form… some use this word to imply that it is banal, and not as good as the Extraordinary, or amazingly wonderful form. Each one can have bad implications. But to be perfectly honest, not everyone who uses NO intends it badly, and while people should be sensitive to others, I have never been a fan of the push to PC language in every aspect of our lives. The constant ad hominem attacks against anyone who speaks of NO gets a little old to me. I can understand suggesting that they use other language as some people find NO offensive, but some people take it way to far on CAF in my experience.

 

[SingaporeanGirl]

Notice how you try to justify your actions? Rather than thinking “whoops, I can see how some people would find the use of ‘novus ordo’ and especially ‘NO’ highly offensive, I’ll simply start using ‘OF Mass’” you dig-in and try to defend your actions.

You already correctly use “EF.” There is not even a change in the number of keystrokes to go from “NO” to “OF.” I seriously doubt this is the first time you have heard this given the tenor of your postings. It’s also clear to me you do this because intentionally want to offend others.

I hope you are not trying something like a personal attack. I know my rights to opinion. And there is much terminology you can dispute over because people use a lot of short form so, thats your choice… there are many things to get angry over but its never worth losing ones peace over them. And those replies were addressed to people who hold genuine conversation. Anyway, Happy Feast of St. Joseph the Worker to all on this thread. I’ve decided that sleep is worth more than this debate. Goodnight.