EF in English?

[I_Believe]

The EF celebrated in the vernacular would be great.

Dempsey1919:

I’ll stick with the Tridentine Mass as it is.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=191682&highlight=absurd
Post # 6.

Why the about-face ? I’m not badgering you or anything, but this thread made me remember the old thread a while back. Just curious.

 

[I_Believe]

Great!

That is exactly what we need, the confessional line is much much shorter then the communion line - how many souls are being lost because they receive the Eucharist unworthily?

If they do become scrupulous, it is not the prayers fault, and this is a huge speculation. Let’s not forget that these prayers are ancient, repeating prayers is found in our Eastern liturgies, which are also ancient.

But no, I guess you know better then our forefathers - shame on them for bringing men to scrupolisty.

The bottom line is, I’ll look to the previous generations of the Church, except that one generation which had forsaken tradition. Even today they push their flawed conception of the Church on us youth, and we’re growing tired.

Your post reminded me of this quote…
“The media have no idea what a real Catholic is. If they did, they would scream for his martyrdom, they would scream for his skin.”
H.E. Bishop Williamson, 2005

 

[bilop]

While old heads like me probably wouldn’t care that much, an entire generation (or two) who never knew Mass in Latin as a regular occurance, I suspect that yes, there would be some significant alienation. Just because someone prefers Latin, doesn’t mean everyone else will.

My wife loves chicken livers, and they’re probably great, but I can’t stand them. We can’t declare something that we subjectively believe to be “in order” for everyone else.

But no one has suggested doing away with Mass in the vernacular. We’re talking ONE Mass per Sunday in Latin.

How will they be alienated by that?

God Bless

 

[ethelzguy]

But **no one has suggested doing away with Mass in the vernacular. ** We’re talking ONE Mass per Sunday in Latin.

How will they be alienated by that?

God Bless

I guess we’ll find out. These threads vary so much it’s hard to keep up sometimes if we’re talking about one Mass per week or “junking” the vernacular OF altogether, etc…guess I need a scorecard.

Actually I will be curious to see how it plays out. It will be “fish or cut bait” time for our traditional crowd.

 

[Freshman88]

Well, let’s face it, practically everything we discuss regarding EF/OF CITH/COTT Organ/Guitar etc ad nauseum is pretty much speculation as to which is better in the sight of God, if indeed either ARE better (speculation in itself)

There is no speculation, look to tradition, look to what the saints did. Look to the Church fathers and look to the Popes.

The worse thing that ever happened to the liturgy was to reduce to it mere choices and preferences.

 

[ethelzguy]

There is no speculation, look to tradition, look to what the saints did. Look to the Church fathers and look to the Popes.

**The worse thing that ever happened **to the liturgy was to reduce to it mere choices and preferences.

mmmmmmm…speculation?

 

[Freshman88]

mmmmmmm…speculation?

Not at all.

Lex Orandi Lex Credendi.

In our prayers was preserved our theology, there was rich symbolism in all the prayers including repetition. They all had their own meaning and lessons behind them.

Yet some had the boldness to use their authority to disregard those prayers, prayers passed on from generation to generation.

Instead of understanding repetition, instead of understanding the symbolism we threw out what our forefathers gave us.

With every ancient prayer thrown away, was an ancient lesson, a mark of a generation, and the wisdom of countless saints and bishops.

I believe its worth fighting for.

 

[deigloriam]

It really shocks me that when we have over 1500 years of something not only working, but also thriving to a degree almost unimaginable vs. something that has been such an utter disaster by any measurable means (and in only 40 years at that), that there is even any discussion (and the Mass is only one part of all this).
I mean, come on! Leaving aside feelings, and whether or not people “meant well” (most did, I believe), the last 40 years have been an unmitigated disaster. The number of Catholics in this country who attend Mass has dropped from somewhere in the 60% range to somewhere in the <20% range (and we are the “bright” spot of the West).
50 years ago we had literally legions of priests and nuns, schools and seminaries bursting at the seams, doctrinal clarity, and what have we done with that? Now we have parishes closing all over, “priestless” parishes, shuttered schools and seminaries, and so many versions of “catholic” doctrine, it is a wonder we know which end is up. Judge the tree by its fruit people!
And no, I’m not a sede, an SSPXer or whatever other bugaboo you want, just a concerned Catholic.

 

[MelanieAnne]

At our parish we do parts of the Mass in Latin, and have done so for a while, at least occasionally, often during Lent. As it was explained to me, it’s either “use it or lose it” and we don’t want to lose it. It has never seemed burdensome. One of our older priests is currently training the others in Latin so that we can have a Latin Mass in the future.

My pastor once told me in a private discussion that the translation we use today is a bit “clumsy” and it’s true that it is not a precise word for word translation. I welcome the day when we have an accurate OF. It would be a plus if it were both elegant as well as accurate. I don’t see a need for an English EF.

 

[Cranch]

It really shocks me that when we have over 1500 years of something not only working, but also thriving to a degree almost unimaginable vs. something that has been such an utter disaster by any measurable means (and in only 40 years at that), that there is even any discussion (and the Mass is only one part of all this).
I mean, come on! Leaving aside feelings, and whether or not people “meant well” (most did, I believe), the last 40 years have been an unmitigated disaster. The number of Catholics in this country who attend Mass has dropped from somewhere in the 60% range to somewhere in the <20% range (and we are the “bright” spot of the West).
50 years ago we had literally legions of priests and nuns, schools and seminaries bursting at the seams, doctrinal clarity, and what have we done with that? Now we have parishes closing all over, “priestless” parishes, shuttered schools and seminaries, and so many versions of “catholic” doctrine, it is a wonder we know which end is up. Judge the tree by its fruit people!
And no, I’m not a sede, an SSPXer or whatever other bugaboo you want, just a concerned Catholic.

Prepare yourself for the “inevitable result of the societal upheaval of the times” excuse in …3……… 2………1……

 

[Dempsey1919]

Why the about-face ? I’m not badgering you or anything, but this thread made me remember the old thread a while back. Just curious.

Since that time, I have had no option but to attend the N.O. almost exclusively due to work commitments. When I participated in that post I had very little experience of the N.O; I had only attended the OF a handful of times.

I feel I have a more balanced view now that I have experienced both Masses equally. I still prefer the TLM but I can understand why others would like the NO. I hate to say it, but earlier this year I would have probably supported the abolition of the Mass of Paul VI. I wouldn’t support this now. I know that this would alienate far too many people.

I have come to realise that one of the main reasons people favour the NO is because of the vernacular. With this in mind, I think that a vernacular EF would be a great introduction to the Tridentine Mass for those who prefer the vernacular.

It probably looks like I’m contradicting myself but to be honest, I don’t care. In this past year, I have been studying the faith deeply and quite a lot of my opinions have changed as a result of this. As I continue to study and develop greater understanding, I will most likely see the errors of my ways in other areas and change other opinions.

 

[rwoehmke]

I have not read beyond the first dozen or so posts in this thread, but I have two questions. What would be the point of taking the EF in Latin and translating it into English when it seems to be the Latin that contributes so strongly to some peoples preference for it.? Second, since the old missals had Latin on one side and English on the other what would be the point of making a whole new translation? It seems to me to have already been done more than 50 years ago.

 

[I_Believe]

Since that time, I have had no option but to attend the N.O. almost exclusively due to work commitments. When I participated in that post I had very little experience of the N.O; I had only attended the OF a handful of times.

I feel I have a more balanced view now that I have experienced both Masses equally. …

Ok, fair enough. I have certainly flipped back and forth as on issues since I returned to the Church in Dec '06.
We live, we learn

I can’t agree with any suggestions regarding changes to the EF though. The change to the venacular would only serve to make it easier for the faithful to follow along without a missal. I just don’t feel, that, is good enough reason to alter such a precious treasure.

I was shocked to find, on another forum where the majority of members are trads, that many were suggesting a good way to introduce the EF to those new to it, was to have the priest pray in latin, and then repeat each part of the Mass in the venacular. Do that on an instructional DVD perhaps, but not during the Mass.

 

[I_Believe]

I have not read beyond the first dozen or so posts in this thread, but I have two questions. What would be the point of taking the EF in Latin and translating it into English when it seems to be the Latin that contributes so strongly to some peoples preference for it.? Second, since the old missals had Latin on one side and English on the other what would be the point of making a whole new translation? It seems to me to have already been done more than 50 years ago.

Exactly. All it takes is a missal, average reading comprehension, and effort.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

How much intelligence would it take to accurately translate the bible or EF of the mass from Latin into English? Did God give us enough intelligence to perform such a thing?

Evidently at some point God gave people in the Catholic Church the intelligence to translate the bible from Aramaic and Hebrew into Greek and Latin.

Did God quit giving men the intelligence to translate beyond Greek and Latin? Did God want everyone to learn Latin and for translation into other languages to end?

When was the exact point in time that Latin became he offical language of the Catholic Church?

When St. Peter and St.Paul first arrived in the city of Rome did they know Latin?

Did St. Peter or St. Paul ever perform the mass in Rome in Latin? Did they ever hear anyone ask for the mass to be performed in Latin?

If they didn’t ever celebrate the mass in Rome in Latin–who was the first bishop of Rome to perform the mass in Latin?

Did any early bishops of Rome ever perform the mass in languages other than Latin in the city of Rome?

The disciples knew Aramic and Hebrew–so they probably performed masses in those languages. Early christians knew Greek and Latin so undoubtedly the mass was performed in those languages.

When was tthe first Roman Rite mass of all times?

When was the first time in the history of the world that the mass was perfomed soley in English?

Was that a bad day in the history of the Catholic Church?

Was it a bad day in the history of the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church?

Was the first mass in the history of the world that was performed soley in English pleasing to God? Did the translation of that mass from Latin into English please God?

If that same Mass had been the EF translated from Latin into English and if it had been approved by the Catholic Church and the Pope–would that English Mass have pleased God?

Could any future mass–if apporved by the Catholic Church and the Pope in the EF translated from Latin into English please God?

 

[ethelzguy]

Exactly. All it takes is a missal, average reading comprehension, and effort.

Effort that could be put to other uses, like bible study or teaching CCD, rather than dealing with needless language translations.

 

[AJV]

It seems to me that with the EF in the vernacular, we would no longer have to choose between accessibility for more people and a reverent and beautiful traditional liturgy.

They would take ages over deciding a good vernacular translation. Or we’d be stuck with ICELese. Can you imagine, for example, the Suscipe Sancte Pater? It’d be something like

Father, accept this offering. May it cleanse us from our sins and bring us salvation.

To be honest though, while it may make sense for some parts in the TLM to be in the vernacular, it doesn’t make sense for a lot of it. A great portion of the Mass, especially from Offertory onward is silent. Might as well keep it in Latin.