EF in English

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I read somewhere that it is possible to have the Tridentine Mass done in the vernacular with special permission. Is there any truth to this? And if so, where?
 
the EF is not the Tridentine Mass. The latter cannot be celebrated in English because there is no approved translation for liturgical use. Pay attention to the new Roman missal. It is going to start sounding a lot more like the EF in English as the new translation is much closer to the precise meaning of the Latin. What would be the point of celebrating the EF in vernacular languages, since it was permitted precisely so that Mass in Latin could be more widely available?
 
tom25 said:
I read somewhere that it is possible to have the Tridentine Mass done in the vernacular with special permission. Is there any truth to this? And if so, where?
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There really is no such thing as the “Tridentine Mass.”

What you’re probably referring to is the EF. It is the Missal of 1962 and Latin is an integral part of it. Every word, phrase, sentence, and paragraph of the text is handed down, it is precise, it is a treasure of the Church and of Christianity, and the meanings are immutable, unlike the vernacular or vulgar tongue which could have a multitude of babelized meanings and interpretations.

That said, it is allowed to substitute the readings in the vernacular in the Low Mass, although I don’t see the point if the vernacular readings are already done as part of the sermon.
 
The Tridentine Mass is the mass codified by the Council of Trent in the 16th century and in use until liturgical reforms initiated early in the 20th century, principally under Pope Pius XII, leading to the “dialog Mass” and ultimately the Missal of 1962, now referred to as the Extraordinary Form. The indult in use between 1968 and the permission for the EF given universally by our current pope applied to the Pre-1962 or “Tridentine Mass” or popular the TLM (traditional Latin Mass) and in places where it has been celebrated by indult it seems that those parishes are turning to the EF. So that is why to use either of these terms to refer to the EF is not precisely correct. there was never a ban by the way on celebrating in Latin the “novus ordo” or Roman Missal of the interim years after the council, the Mass of Pope Paul VI, or the current Roman Missal in any of its revisions since then.

I repeat the question. What would be the purpose of celebrating the EF in a vernacular language?
 
puzzleannie said:
What would be the point of celebrating the EF in vernacular languages, since it was permitted precisely so that Mass in Latin could be more widely available?
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This is false. If the language was the main point, then the Pope could have simply required every diocese to have an OF Mass in Latin every day.

The reason why the EF is necessary is because the prayers of the EF Mass are different than the prayers of the OF Mass. The prayers of the EF Mass express the sacrificial theology of the Mass as dogmatically defined at the council of Trent in a way that the prayers of the OF Mass do not.

Put another way, the prayers of the EF Mass are unmistakably and uniquely Catholic, whereas the prayers of the OF Mass are fully acceptable and agreeable to many protestants as well as to Catholics.
 
since the new translation of the Roman Missal seems to be addressing those very valid concerns, I still don’t see the point.
 
puzzleannie said:
What would be the point of celebrating the EF in vernacular languages, since it was permitted precisely so that Mass in Latin could be more widely available?
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I’m not sure I understand your statement. The OF can be celebrated in Latin at any time.
 
Will_S said:
If the language was the main point, then the Pope could have simply required every diocese to have an OF Mass in Latin every day.
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It’s true that some prayers are different, but if the Pope would have his way, wouldn’t you think he’d want more (if not all) OF Masses said in Latin, as the Vatican II document explicitly required? The bishops are the ones with the power to extend the vernacular(s) for pastoral purposes. It also means that the bishops determine the language in their own countries, language that has to be approved by the Vatican, and as we’ve seen, it’s quite a task to agree on one-size-fits-all translation that in many cases compromises the Latin meanings of the Mass. Just saying.

You do make a fair point about the ecumenical aspect of it, but I think Protestants and others have always recognized and accepted that some Latin is one of the characteristics of a Catholic Mass in the West (if not the West as a whole), so much so it actually took some Anglicans (like Agatha Christie and a couple of Anglican bishops) to petition Paul VI to retain the Latin Mass. And he granted their wish.
 
Will_S said:
The reason why the EF is necessary is because the prayers of the EF Mass are different than the prayers of the OF Mass.
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Yes, quite so. 🙂
Will_S said:
The prayers of the EF Mass express the sacrificial theology of the Mass as dogmatically defined at the council of Trent in a way that the prayers of the OF Mass do not.
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That’s all true, but PP S Pius V merely codified and standardized the Mass. I think one has to keep in mind that the prayers of the Usus Antiquior, yeah its very theology and focus, are far older than that.
 
puzzleannie said:
since the new translation of the Roman Missal seems to be addressing those very valid concerns, I still don’t see the point.
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The new translation has absolutely nothing to do with it. The OF Mass in Latin is substantially different than the EF Mass. The prayers are different. The Consilium that developed the OF Mass stripped the Mass of a lot of distinctively Catholic content.
 
Shortly before the Second Vatican Council, special permission was granted in China to say the Mass in Chinese, rather than Latin, though I think it was a Diocese-by-diocese thing.

The Anglican Use Mass, which is used in the Ordinariates and the Anglican Use parishes, is a translation of the TLM from the 15th century, and is, I believe what you might like. It’s entirety can be found in the Book of Divine Worship, which is our adaptation of the Book of Common Prayer.

Here is a link to the Book of Divine Worship

Videos of the BODW can also be found in various places online.

Personally, I think it would be rather strange to have the EF in English, and then if it were, it would not be the EF.
 
Will_S said:
The new translation has absolutely nothing to do with it. The OF Mass in Latin is substantially different than the EF Mass. The prayers are different. The Consilium that developed the OF Mass stripped the Mass of a lot of distinctively Catholic content.
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What you are saying is false, the EF and the OF are substantially the same. However, they are formally different. Of course the parts that were changed were of Catholic content, anything that is not Catholic is not part of the Mass either in the EF or the OF.
 
Thank you everyone. I do love the latin mass in general, and I was curious on that point. Thank you.
 
I went to a parish in Pensacola, FL once visiting where the priest did a hybird of the OF and EF. He spoke in the vernacular, using the OF readings and eucharistic prayers, but he came out in EF vestments and stood facing towards the alter just like the EF.
 
jasonjessica09 said:
I went to a parish in Pensacola, FL once visiting where the priest did a hybird of the OF and EF. He spoke in the vernacular, using the OF readings and eucharistic prayers, but he came out in EF vestments and stood facing towards the alter just like the EF.
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It sounds like a normal ad orientem OF Mass. The OF Mass can be said in Latin too.
 
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