EF Mass Observation

[elgar]

The EF of the mass is being offered every Sunday afternoon at a church just a few miles from where I live. I am a lapsed Catholic who is part of a vibrant Anglican congregation whose members eager to learn and participate in corporate worship. At the same time I am more than curious about the traditional Latin Mass and have attended a few and always come away disappointed.

I have considerable music abilities as a degreed organist am a decent tenor who can sight read well. My main observation is in spite of the good intentions of the priest to make this available–even though his ability to chant the mass is all over the place-- the level of response from the congregation is almost nil. I seem to be the only person who even opens a book or sings along. I think a lot of it has to do with the painfully slow tempos set by the organist. Good Protestant hymns are used–only a verse or two–at the beginning and the end. Again, the choir and I are the only people singing.

Another interesting observation, the hosting parish does support the idea of the EF, but members don’t attend themselves. I think their aim is for the sojourners to join the parish. I really would like for this effort to be successful but am doubtful. I’ve toyed with volunteering my talents but get the sense I would be viewed as an intruder–especially coming from a non-Catholic.

 

[TARRAT]

Go ahead and volunteer. It couldn’t hurt.

But from what I remember of the old latin mass there never was congregation participation. Maybe there was supposed to be but from my experience that was left to the choir and altar servers.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

If you’re a lapsed catholic, you’re still a Catholic. You have no business at an Anglican parish (unless it’s Anglican Use Catholic Ordinariate). What you experience is typical of EF Masses. Our priest tries to get us to sing, but it never happens. Our you want congregational singing from Catholics, you need to go to an Anglican Use Catholic Ordinariate (not to be confused with Anglo-catholics who are protestants, NOT Catholics).

 

[svid2]

Go ahead and volunteer. It couldn’t hurt.

But from what I remember of the old latin mass there never was congregation participation. Maybe there was supposed to be but from my experience that was left to the choir and altar servers.

Pax Christi!

That’s my memory as well. The congregation follows along in the missal, but that’s it.

I love the Latin Mass, but I REALLY love being a lector!

God bless.

 

[elgar]

If you’re a lapsed catholic, you’re still a Catholic. You have no business at an Anglican parish (unless it’s Anglican Use Catholic Ordinariate). What you experience is typical of EF Masses. Our priest tries to get us to sing, but it never happens. Our you want congregational singing from Catholics, you need to go to an Anglican Use Catholic Ordinariate (not to be confused with Anglo-catholics who are protestants, NOT Catholics).

Believe me, I am well aware of the Ordinariate and it ain’t gonna happen around here. Our parish is part of ACNA which is Protestant with Catholic liturgical rituals.

I was rather surprised of the High Mass done every week with so few in attendance. No, I really wasn’t expecting Protestant hymns or people in the pews singing Gregorian Chant, even though there are booklets for them to at least open. Because of my age, (55) I don’t remember much from the old rite. One thing that I do remember is with the exception of a few “barn burner” Catholic hymns–like "Holy God We Praise Thy Name and those from the Marian category–folks in the pew were primarily there to observe and say/sing very little.

 

[malphono]

TARRAT;11346188:

But from what I remember of the old latin mass there never was congregation participation. Maybe there was supposed to be but from my experience that was left to the choir and altar servers.

That’s my memory as well.

It’s sad but true. In my experience, most Usus Antiquior people just sit there in silence, and that despite the fact that the choir master often hands-out music for the Ordinary. OTOH, there seems to be growing number who actually do open their mouths. Some who sing are of the less inhibited younger generation, who think nothing of actually raising their voices in song. OTOH, some are of my age group who apparently recall being taught the Instruction “De musica sacra” from 1958, when it was made clear that we could – and should – sing what we can. I, for one, have never been shy about singing whatever I know, although I cannot read music (any notation) and will therefore not sing what I don’t know, lest it mess-up the whole thing. But I’m somewhat of a quick study, and once I’m familiar with something, watch out.

 

[ProVobis]

Go ahead and volunteer. It couldn’t hurt.

But from what I remember of the old latin mass there never was congregation participation. Maybe there was supposed to be but from my experience that was left to the choir and altar servers.

Maybe overall you’re right but “Et cum spiritu tuo” and “Ahmen” seems to be quite popular in the Masses I attend. Not that much different in the OF except for the more popular (to my dismay) “Aymen” and a lot of murmuring.

 

[moon1234]

The EF of the mass is being offered every Sunday afternoon at a church just a few miles from where I live. I am a lapsed Catholic who is part of a vibrant Anglican congregation whose members eager to learn and participate in corporate worship. At the same time I am more than curious about the traditional Latin Mass and have attended a few and always come away disappointed.

I have considerable music abilities as a degreed organist am a decent tenor who can sight read well. My main observation is in spite of the good intentions of the priest to make this available–even though his ability to chant the mass is all over the place-- the level of response from the congregation is almost nil. I seem to be the only person who even opens a book or sings along. I think a lot of it has to do with the painfully slow tempos set by the organist. Good Protestant hymns are used–only a verse or two–at the beginning and the end. Again, the choir and I are the only people singing.

Another interesting observation, the hosting parish does support the idea of the EF, but members don’t attend themselves. I think their aim is for the sojourners to join the parish. I really would like for this effort to be successful but am doubtful. I’ve toyed with volunteering my talents but get the sense I would be viewed as an intruder–especially coming from a non-Catholic.

Don’t be shy about joining the choir, especially if you have skills. An organist can really set the tone for the members of the choir as well. I had to leave our choir because we had a change in organists. The personal choices of music from the organists were just too different for me. I did not like a lot of the music that was chosen by the replacement. Much of it is way too somber with very little triumphant music. There is nothing wrong with that, but I was just not happy singing that music so I let the others who were take my spot.

The organist at our parish, who retired, was a Lutheran. He had very good skills and knew the proper tempo at which to play the music. TOO often Catholic organists play music too slowly so those in the choir who have a harder time with the music can keep up. If you are an accomplished organist, by all means ask to join the choir.

I goaded our old organists many a time to try and get him to play Widor’s iconic toccata. He always told me his fingers were too old. How I wished I could have heard that as the recessional on Easter!

 

[phil19034]

Believe me, I am well aware of the Ordinariate and it ain’t gonna happen around here.

It could happen. There are some Ordinariate parishes which actually use the Church of a “normal” Roman parish. Sometimes they even start very small.

The one in the City of Philadelphia attends Mass at a Roman parish. One in NorthEastern PA used to use another parish until they moved into their own Church.

If you are interested, you might be able to start one. Lots of Anglicans are starting to get feed up with the Anglican Union. I believe becoming part of the Ordinariate is a “win-win” for conservative Anglicans.

God Bless.

 

[M1Garand]

If people are not participating in the EF they are not praying the Mass. If you have a latin Missal then you know that you sing the entrance hymn, respond several times during the mass including reciting the Pater Noster and Credo, sing one of the Marian prayers depending on the calendar and then sing the closing. You are also to pray the Mass along with the Priest in silence by reading the Missal. If you want to do more volunteer to sing in the Schola.

I would also read up on what the Holy Mass is celebrating. It is not about glad tambourines, hand waiving and a killer drum section.

 

[moon1234]

If people are not participating in the EF they are not praying the Mass. If you have a latin Missal then you know that you sing the entrance hymn, respond several times during the mass including reciting the Pater Noster and Credo, sing one of the Marian prayers depending on the calendar and then sing the closing. You are also to pray the Mass along with the Priest in silence by reading the Missal. If you want to do more volunteer to sing in the Schola.

Actually this is 100% false. Vocal participation is NOT required at Mass. You are not required to say anything at an EF Mass. What you are required to do is join your prayers with the Priest. That is active participation. Singing, saying the responses is NOT active participation. In fact, a person can utter the same words every Sunday and be 100 miles away in his/her own world.

Saying the Our Father and some of the other responses with the server is what is called a Dialogue Mass. Most places I have been to that have the EF do not have dialogue Masses. It is a common misperception of many who are not familiar with the EF or mostly attend the OF that people are not participating unless their lips or bodies are moving.

 

[M1Garand]

Actually this is 100% false. Vocal participation is NOT required at Mass. You are not required to say anything at an EF Mass. What you are required to do is join your prayers with the Priest. That is active participation. Singing, saying the responses is NOT active participation. In fact, a person can utter the same words every Sunday and be 100 miles away in his/her own world.

Saying the Our Father and some of the other responses with the server is what is called a Dialogue Mass. Most places I have been to that have the EF do not have dialogue Masses. It is a common misperception of many who are not familiar with the EF or mostly attend the OF that people are not participating unless their lips or bodies are moving.

I did not say “vocal participation” is required. I was referring to the comment people are just sitting in the pews, and that there is no singing . If that is what they are doing they are not praying the Mass. So I said exactly what you said–no.

 

[malphono]

M1Garand;11346591:

If people are not participating in the EF they are not praying the Mass. If you have a latin Missal then you know that you sing the entrance hymn, respond several times during the mass including reciting the Pater Noster and Credo, sing one of the Marian prayers depending on the calendar and then sing the closing. You are also to pray the Mass along with the Priest in silence by reading the Missal. If you want to do more volunteer to sing in the Schola.

I would also read up on what the Holy Mass is celebrating. It is not about glad tambourines, hand waiving and a killer drum section.

Actually this is 100% false. Vocal participation is NOT required at Mass. You are not required to say anything at an EF Mass. What you are required to do is join your prayers with the Priest. That is active participation. Singing, saying the responses is NOT active participation. In fact, a person can utter the same words every Sunday and be 100 miles away in his/her own world.

Saying the Our Father and some of the other responses with the server is what is called a Dialogue Mass. Most places I have been to that have the EF do not have dialogue Masses. It is a common misperception of many who are not familiar with the EF or mostly attend the OF that people are not participating unless their lips or bodies are moving.

Well … sorry but it’s NOT 100% false, especially when taking the clarifications issued in de musica sacra in 1958 into consideration. There is not, and never really has been, a restriction on any member of any congregation joining voice with the choir. Just because it was rarely done before that Instruction, does not mean it was forbidden.

Perhaps it might also be helpful to note that the OP was in regard to singing, which would mean a Missa Cantata or even a Solemn Mass (I’m discounting any hymns that may be done at a Missa Lecta (“Low Mass”). A Missa Recitata (aka “Dialogue Mass”) is Low Mass with responses. BTW, none of is a “misperception” on my part. I’m more than familiar with the Missale Romanum and its rubrics. And when in a Latin church (which is relatively frequently for me for reasons of geographical circumstance) I attend the Usus Antiquior exclusively.

 

[elgar]

I have and agree with your statement above. What I observed from most of these folks was a lack of joy or any kind of enthusiasm. I don’t mean to judge. Just my observation.

 

[moon1234]

Well … sorry but it’s NOT 100% false, especially when taking the clarifications issued in de musica sacra in 1958 into consideration. There is not, and never really has been, a restriction on any member of any congregation joining voice with the choir. Just because it was rarely done before that Instruction, does not mean it was forbidden.

Perhaps it might also be helpful to note that the OP was in regard to singing, which would mean a Missa Cantata or even a Solemn Mass (I’m discounting any hymns that may be done at a Missa Lecta (“Low Mass”). A Missa Recitata (aka “Dialogue Mass”) is Low Mass with responses. BTW, none of is a “misperception” on my part. I’m more than familiar with the Missale Romanum and its rubrics. And when in a Latin church (which is relatively frequently for me for reasons of geographical circumstance) I attend the Usus Antiquior exclusively.

The fact that MOST people don’t say the responses, sing, etc. is that it WAS proper for these functions to be clerical and not lay. Those offices being filled by the laity and later transferred to the laity we due to a lack of clerics. A choir used to be restricted to clerics along with those serving at the altar.

Changes, such as the dialogue Mass, are seen by many who attend the EF as innovations and stepping stones to the novus ordo. That is why some may choose not to respond.

To insinuate that being quiet in the pew=no participation is wrong. MOST of the people that attend my parish do not say a word nor sing, yet they are some of the most devout people I know. Some are religious ed teachers. It is inconsiderate to assume that someone silently uniting themselves with the Priest is not actively participating in the Mass.

 

[Chatter163]

I did not say “vocal participation” is required. I was referring to the comment people are just sitting in the pews, and that there is no singing . If that is what they are doing they are not praying the Mass. So I said exactly what you said–no.

What, pray tell, does “just sitting in the pews” mean? How can you tell how people follow the Latin Mass by looking at them?

 

[moon1234]

Well … sorry but it’s NOT 100% false, especially when taking the clarifications issued in de musica sacra in 1958 into consideration. There is not, and never really has been, a restriction on any member of any congregation joining voice with the choir. Just because it was rarely done before that Instruction, does not mean it was forbidden.

Perhaps it might also be helpful to note that the OP was in regard to singing, which would mean a Missa Cantata or even a Solemn Mass (I’m discounting any hymns that may be done at a Missa Lecta (“Low Mass”). A Missa Recitata (aka “Dialogue Mass”) is Low Mass with responses. BTW, none of is a “misperception” on my part. I’m more than familiar with the Missale Romanum and its rubrics. And when in a Latin church (which is relatively frequently for me for reasons of geographical circumstance) I attend the Usus Antiquior exclusively.

Here is a decree from 1922 which states the opposite of what you said above:

Decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites of August 4, 1922

Q. “May the congregation, assisting at the Sacrifice make the responses in unison, instead of the server?”

Reply: The norm is: Things that in themselves are licit are not always expedient. Owing to the difficulties which may easily arise, as in this case, especially on account of the disturbances which the priests who celebrate and the people who assist may experience, to the disadvantage of the sacred Action and of the rubrics. Hence it is expedient to retain the common usage, as we have several times replied in similar cases.

 

[elgar]

Maybe overall you’re right but “Et cum spiritu tuo” and “Ahmen” seems to be quite popular in the Masses I attend. Not that much different in the OF except for the more popular (to my dismay) “Aymen” and a lot of murmuring.

Funny you mention the jarring “Aymen”. The priest at yesterday’s EF mass actually pronounced it that way and he has a Phd in some other discipline. This is a prime example of what low-church Protestantism has done to Catholic liturgy over the last 40 years. Remember the movie “Lilies of the Field”? Ironically, most of the Anglicans I worship with pronounce it “Ahmen”.

 

[malphono]

Here is a decree from 1922 which states the opposite of what you said above:

I said absolutely nothing about a Missa Recitata other than mentioning that it exists. The OP was about SUNG Mass, and that is where my post was directed. But whatever … I made a comment in this thread without any interest in engaging in an absurd argument. Ergo, it’s time for me to exit and end my involvement.

 

[TimothyH]

I said absolutely nothing about a Missa Recitata other than mentioning that it exists. The OP was about SUNG Mass, and that is where my post was directed. But whatever … I made a comment in this thread without any interest in engaging in an absurd argument. Ergo, it’s time for me to exit and end my involvement.

Your first post came across as very condescending and a not a little bit sarcastic.

Many of your posts come across that way, as a lecture from a superior to an inferior rather than a conversation between two people.

-Tim-