EF Mass Preferers now demand "right" of all sacraments under "old form"

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I’m curious why so many EF Mass Preferers (EFMPs) are so intent on creating their own “tlm-only” parishes or communities rather than (at least in part) be satisfied with a properly celebrated EF Mass in Catholic (no “tlm” or “no” qualifier) parishes of the Latin Rite?

It seems like a growing number of EFMPs now demand that all seven sacraments be available to them in the “old form” (“older” would be more honest) – something Summorum Pontificum doesn’t even address, much less guarantee.

Now this might just be EFMPs’ excuse for what seems to be their desire for ever-growing division? Their continued attempt to treat another form of the Mass as if it were another rite entirely? Has anyone else here noticed this?

It seems like a rather larger percentage of EFMPs are intent on cleaving themselves from parishes that predominantly celebrate the OF Mass as if doing so would ultimately create another “rite” of the Western Church.
 
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Duesenberg said:
It seems like a rather larger percentage of EFMPs are intent on cleaving themselves from parishes that predominantly celebrate the OF Mass
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That’s about right, at least in a lot of places including here in Pittsburgh.

In Pittsburgh, the John XXIII Parish was established and Lat(name removed by moderator)hiles are registered members of it. If you aren’t a registered member, you can’t get “full service” there. The goal seems to be grow their community- not so much to provide another option for the general Catholic population.

This is from their website, in describing the catechism classes they offer:“Only families who are registered parishioners of St. John XXIII Parish are permitted to register their children for these classes”
 
I’m not sure what the issue is here. I was there before and after Vatican II. Altar and communion rails, communion on the tongue, Easter procession, and other things were of tremendous value. The Mass in Latin. I have no problem with the English Mass but after Vatican II, a lot of abuses occurred, altar and communion rails were removed by persons unknown, statues were removed. None of this was even suggested by Vatican II. I still know the Latin. The missal had the Latin and English on the same page.

Starting in the 1970s, proper Catechesis was not taught. I don’t blame them.
 
edwest211 said:
I’m not sure what the issue is here. I was there before and after Vatican II. Altar and communion rails, communion on the tongue, Easter procession, and other things were of tremendous value. The Mass in Latin. I have no problem with the English Mass but after Vatican II, a lot of abuses occurred, altar and communion rails were removed by persons unknown, statues were removed. None of this was even suggested by Vatican II. I still know the Latin. The missal had the Latin and English on the same page.

Starting in the 1970s, proper Catechesis was not taught. I don’t blame them.
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I think this has a lot to do with it. People associate the Latin Mass itself with a more fulfilled faith-life, and a more “Catholic” Catholic Church.

While TLM may have had something to do with it, it has a lot more to do with people being lazy in the faith, and the sexual rebellion of the 60’s and 70’s tricking people into accepting immorality. The issue isn’t the mass, it’s the people, and that fact that people are increasingly unwilling to inconveniences themselves for God.
 
Augustinian said:
This is from their website, in describing the catechism classes they offer:“Only families who are registered parishioners of St. John XXIII Parish are permitted to register their children for these classes”
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That’s not actually uncommon. There are MANY parishes that only allow registered parishenors to register their kids for classes.

This is not an issue if OF vs EF, but rather an issue of supply & demand.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
I think this has a lot to do with it. People associate the Latin Mass itself with a more fulfilled faith-life, and a more “Catholic” Catholic Church.
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What “people”? EFMPers? I don’t think that’s true of the great majority of Catholic Christians though.
 
SP liberated the traditional Ritual and Breviary, along with (under certain conditions) the Pontifical.
 
Duesenberg said:
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ProdglArchitect:
I think this has a lot to do with it. People associate the Latin Mass itself with a more fulfilled faith-life, and a more “Catholic” Catholic Church.
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What “people”? EFMPers? I don’t think that’s true of the great majority of Catholic Christians though.
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It just seems to be the general feel I get from people who attend TLM. It’s a subjective assessment, to be sure, and I can’t say their views are completely without merit.
 
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Augustinian said:
That’s about right, at least in a lot of places including here in Pittsburgh.

In Pittsburgh, the John XXIII Parish was established and Lat(name removed by moderator)hiles are registered members of it. If you aren’t a registered member, you can’t get “full service” there. The goal seems to be grow their community- not so much to provide another option for the general Catholic population.

This is from their website, in describing the catechism classes they offer:“Only families who are registered parishioners of St. John XXIII Parish are permitted to register their children for these classes”
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That is exactly how “personal parishes” (which this is) are supposed to work, as per the Code of Canon Law.

Personal parishes are established to serve a particular segment of the population, where the membership is defined by the persons rather than the territory. In this case, that membership is defined (by the bishop) as being those who prefer the Extraordinary Form.

Personal parishes are specifically-not supposed to be places where members of regular (ie territorial) parishes can simply visit from time-to-time to receive First Communion or to hold weddings, etc. Of course, people can always visit other parishes without being members.

So again, what you describe is a parish that is actually abiding by the Code of Canon Law with regard to their status.
 
I know this will upset some, but I would really like to see Pope Francis promulgate a new Franciscan Mass.

Bring back the prayers before the altar.
Mandate that the Mass be celebrated ad orientem or liturgical East.
Mandate that in most circumstances, the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei are said in Latin.
Bring back the Tridentine Form of the Confiteor and mandate that the Confiteor and Kyrie are the penitential Rite to be used in all Masses.

Mandate reception of Communion on the tongue, and limit the number of EMHC’s and make the occasions for their usage less numerous.

Severely restrict the usage of any musical instruments besides the Pipe organ, and strongly encourage the use of polyphony and Gregorian chant when able.

Mandate that on most Sundays and Solemnities the Roman Canon is the appropriate Eucharistic prayer to be utilized.

Make it an option for Bishops to determine whether they want Communion received in a line or at an altar rail in their Dioceses.

Make it optional to read the Prologue to John after the Concluding Rites (though this is technically already an option, encourage the practice).

Take this new Fransican Mass and promulgate it, and strictly forbid any older form of Roman Rite Mass from being used - totally suppress both the Tridentine and Pauline Masses in favor of the Franciscan Mass.

This is a pipe dream, but I would be 100% on board with such a thing.

It would act as a good compromise between the EF and OF, and it would hopefully help quell the division which we see now cropping up more and more.
 
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If people wish to receive the older forms of the sacraments, then I can’t really see what the problem is.

I only ocasionally attend TLM, but I can see where people are coming from on wanting to form communities. The reverence displayed by these people, the behaviour of their children at Mass, how they value their faith, their whole attitude seems different. In these communities there seems to be a certain protection from secular liberal influences.

I’m not a traddie, but I do understand the attraction of such communities.
 
Duesenberg said:
I’m curious why so many EF Mass Preferers (EFMPs) are so intent on creating their own “tlm-only” parishes or communities rather than (at least in part) be satisfied with a properly celebrated EF Mass in Catholic (no “tlm” or “no” qualifier) parishes of the Latin Rite?

It seems like a growing number of EFMPs now demand that all seven sacraments be available to them in the “old form” (“older” would be more honest) – something Summorum Pontificum doesn’t even address, much less guarantee.

Now this might just be EFMPs’ excuse for what seems to be their desire for ever-growing division? Their continued attempt to treat another form of the Mass as if it were another rite entirely? Has anyone else here noticed this?

It seems like a rather larger percentage of EFMPs are intent on cleaving themselves from parishes that predominantly celebrate the OF Mass as if doing so would ultimately create another “rite” of the Western Church.
Click to expand...
When a EF parish is created, it’s done so by the Bishop. If the Bishop feels that a personal parish or quasi-parish is appropriate, that should be enough.

If a bishop feels EF only parishes are not appropriate, he will not allow them to be created. If a bishop likes them, he will create them.

I fail to understand why this bothers you so much? The creation of personal parishes is FAR more common than you think, and is also for the creation of OF parishes.

It is no different than when a bishop creates an African Parish, or a Polish Parish, or a Slovakian Parish, or an Italian Parish.

These personal parishes are created so the parishenors can have devotions that are specific to their culture / worship styles.

Let’s look at foreign language masses at a parish. There are a number of priests who are in favor of splitting a parish into two when the foreign language group gets too large. Reason: devotions. Let’s say a parish is split between people of Polish and Mexican lineage. The Mexicans are going to want many decorations, devotions & parish events of Mexican origin (like our Lady of Guadalupe) while the Pols are going to want decorations, devotions & parish events of Polish origin.

These desires can often compete against each other if the two groups are very ethnic and want their culture to be the prominent culture of parish life (not the American culture).

Same thing goes for the EF. People who are devoted to it may have a different culture than the people who are not.

So when the number of EF devotees grows and their donations grow, etc; it can create conflict with the OF devotees, esp if the Pastor is not the leader of both groups.

If the EF devotees fundraise to donate some traditional Catholic art to the parish, that conflicts with the modern art that the OF devotees love, who wins? The EF devotees who raised the money or the OF devotees who don’t want the art?

These are just some examples of why Bishops sometimes believe the creation of Personal Parishes and quasi-parishes are necessary.

God Bless
 
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I would love this!! I have the feeling this was more of the vision the Vatican II council had in mind.
 
All of the things you mention I am for: reverence, better behaved children and valuing the faith where God is in your life 7 days a week, not just one. Life is lived better as a practicing Catholic who has a daily relationship with Christ and assents to Church teaching. Only this will bring more faith into our lives.

And protection from secular liberal influences is job one. Know what they are but never do them. Avoid them.
 
Spyridon said:
strictly forbid any older form of Roman Rite Mass from being used
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I think this would be a bad idea, only because those who dislike Francis would use it to fit an agenda as him being against the TLM specifically and accuse him heresy/modernism/etc. I also think it’s hard to completely forbid a previously valid form without insinuating that they weren’t valid. I do think there’s a way to take the best parts of the OF and EF and make it very good.

I attended an OF mass Sunday for the first time since I was in high school and it was much better than I remember it being, but my parish is already pretty conservative, particularly the priest who is also my RCIA instructor.
 
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