EF masses today

[promethius]

Satistic?

Approx 1 million: Number of EF adherents according to Vatican estimates

Statistics: Catholics who self-described as “traditional” (including conservative OF attendants) are, on average, 8 years older than the average catholic

You will kindly note that the 8 years difference is between self-described conservative/traditional catholics and the CHURCH AS A WHOLE… the disparity between those describing themselves as traditional and those describing themselves as liberal is greater than 8 years.

Since the TLM is a deliberate choice, as opposed to a default option or learned habit, it stands to reason that only mature persons are capable of making that choice; therefore, we should expect to find informed and older persons at the EF. Again, the TLM is an issue that requires i) pompting and provision of necessary initial information and, finally, ii) deliberation and determination on the part of the person before attendance even becomes a possibility (in most cases assumed).

Further, it usually requires (above mental labour) additional physical labour or at least time investment and monetary expense to attend the EF, as it is not, on average, as accessible as the OF. Naturally younger people are more liable to lack the means to be able to religiously attend the Old Mass; therefore, we should not be surprised if older persons, who are more likely to enjoy the means to attend the EF, also predominate at the EF.

Older meaning in the 65+ group as compared to, say, the 30-40 group. I’m not talking about 16 year olds here. By and large mass attendance in ANY rite goes up with age (except, of course, for that 18-30 group I mentioned previously). Why you think a 40 year old is incapable of making informed moral decisions is beyond me… certainly that is not the teaching of the Catholic church!

I have no idea where you concluded that older people have more capability to attend mass at a distance than younger… when we start talking about the 65+ age groups, we start talking about reduced mobility and dependence… the retirement community on fixed and limited incomes… but also with more time on hand.

The EF, it can and should be argued, under present policy, is prejudiced against young persons and teenagers by reason of its lower accessibility especially. The fact that, in spite of these obstacles to the EF that it has, nonetheless, grown and expanded is a credit to the zeal it either attracts or inspires and potentially confirms.

The fact that it has grown has probably got more to do with availability on the whole. More diocese are holding the EF now and the perception that there was a restriction against hosting an EF has been removed. As the availability has expanded (even if someone has to drive 50 miles), so has attendance therein… but this isn’t straight CONVERSION here… most of these would have attended the EF before had it been available to them, so when they are made aware of an opportunity to do so, this does not represent a change in perspective.

This comment is loaded with prejudice and inuendo and therefore needs not be addressed. The word “cling” gives the impression that they are fighting against some natural law; the word “element” suggests an intention to marginalize, while the addition of the political label “conservative” suggests divisiveness or a political inuendo (on their part) that has been by no means substantiated with any evidence.

This is ludicrous, and I’m grossly offended. I will refer you to the catechism where you should read up on rash judgement and the REQUIREMENT by catholics NOT to assume the worst possible intent of a person.

I will also refer you to the Websters Dictionary, where you will find that cling and element have no derogatory definition (and NOTHING about “fighting against some natural law” as regards “to cling” or marginalization as regards “element” which merely denotes a portion of a larger whole).

I will also refer you to the Webster’s Dictionary again to find that conservative DOES have other than political connotations, which are in fact appropriate terms to describe the idea of the Traditional Catholic movement… namely: a : tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional

So now that you’ve basically trounced the English language to villainize me by making it appear that I was saying something other than I did, I request your apology.

As was already demonstrated above, this observation can be argued as much in favour for the EF as it can be used to relativize it.

I’ve never said I was against the EF, so I don’t see why you think my intent was to relativize it. The point remains, there is only one mass for the EF daily mass attendants in all three parishes, and there are three for the OF daily mass attendants. It’s admirable that the EF drive extra distance to get there, but that doesn’t dismiss the fact that there is a greater collection ability for one rite holding a single mass than three whilst covering the same geographical area.

 

[promethius]

Statistic?

Excuse me, I left out a word.

Nationally, attendance at the OF form of mass is level, not declining as is often erroneously claimed on this forum.

the median change in total Sunday/Saturday Vigil Mass attendance in U.S. is flat indicating neither growth nor decline.

This thread is proof enough that population of EF varies by region, although I’m certain CARA has a report on that as well.

This remark does not seem to make sense. We would assume that all regions (i.e., the nation) have 18-30 year olds and persons above the age of 65. Are you suggesting that the alleged peculiarly EF regions have more senior citizens?

I’m not asserting a connection there, although there are regions with a heavier concentration of youth vs elderly and vice versa.

I would say that the fact that population attending EF goes back to that question about accessability, as well as social attitudes of the area (more than age in this case). Ft Myers, FL has a large elderly population, but their latin mass doesn’t warrant a parish of its own. Despite availability, the population of EF attendants as compared to the population of the area is low.

Pensacola, same situation… there’s a readily available EF mass, which has it’s OWN parish and is centrally located with easy parking (not a drive for anyone in the area), and yet that parish boasts hardly 20 people (if that).

Comparitively, others on here claim that their EF has significant populations and I’m inclined to believe them.

You’ll kindly note that there are two statements here:

1. OF mass attendance as a percentage is level. As a raw number it is on the rise.
2. EF Population (and therefore attendance as a raw number) is varied by region (though with the resurgence of conservatism in 18-30 year olds AND under 18… use websters!.. attendance at traditional parishes is likely to rise)

Assuming you mean Catholic families, then the usual observation that Catholic families attending the EF tend to have more children suggests a relationship between that attendance and adherence to Church teaching in regards to the family.

You do, I suppose, have a statistic to validate your claim that EF catholic families have more children?

I would peg this more as a reflection of personality than rite, and that personality influences what rite people attend.

For example: NF and NT types probably have a greater affinity for the OF mass, although I can see where an NT type would dig the EF.

SJ and SP type personalities are considered “guardian” types and probably represent a greater portion of mass attendance at EF masses.

This personality distribution would LIKEWISE affect adherence to Catholic social teaching, as SJ and SP types are more likely to accept traditional morality and authoritative teachings than NTs (who need a logical reason to follow teachings) and NFs (who tend to look for personal aspects of moral teaching).

This is, of course, a hypothesis. To my knowledge no one has done a personality study of EF mass attendants.

We can, therefore, expect more young persons attending the EF and also the increased likelihood of religious vocations; regardless, the power of nature being what it is, we can expect a dispraportionate increase in attendence at the EF if the observation that those who attend the EF tend to have more children (than their OF counterparts) is true. In time, of course, we can logically expect even a majority.

I would say that yes, conservative catholics as a whole are likely to have more children, and traditional catholics, falling into that conservative aspect, are in that group… thus the rise of conservative catholic values is almost a given, and with that a rise in population as a percentage of those who attend the EF.

I disagree with the majority claim, however. The OF has shown itself to host the most explosive growth in raw numbers of Catholics in the history of the church… in the USofA, Catholicism has grown by 75 % in the last 40 years, and worldwide Catholicism has nearly doubled it’s numbers in that time frame.

The OF has also seen a global increase in diocesan priestly ordinations (contrary to popular belief), although a decrease in religious sisters and religious ordinations.

As I have said before… problems that are attributed to the OF in the United States have more to do with US social problems than with the OF itself. Those who ascribe these problems to the rite are simply the victims of limited sample size influencing their attribution errors.

Statistics

 

[Old_Salt]

Most of the people I see at the TLM, be it diocesan or FSSPX are younger than 50.
About 1/3 seems older than 50.
Most married people, especially at the FSSPX Mass I go to have at least 4 children.
I have seen up to 9.

 

[ProVobis]

Nationally, attendance at the OF form of mass is level, not declining as is often erroneously claimed on this forum.

The English Mass is declining, especially in the urban areas. The Spanish and Polish Masses are healthier, negating some decline. In Africa and Asia, Mass attendance is flourishing.

 

[promethius]

The English Mass is declining, especially in the urban areas. The Spanish and Polish Masses are healthier, negating some decline. In Africa and Asia, Mass attendance is flourishing.

Actually, that was the case until about ten years ago. Since then, mass attendance in America (as a percentage of catholics) has been stable, while mass attendance as a raw number has risen (due to growth of the church overall). I cited the national statistics from CARA on my last post… the one you quoted from.

Anyone telling you that mass attendance at the OF is currently in free fall in the US and Europe is misinformed.

Although I agree with your assessment of Spain, Poland, Africa, and Asia

 

[promethius]

Most of the people I see at the TLM, be it diocesan or FSSPX are younger than 50.
About 1/3 seems older than 50.
Most married people, especially at the FSSPX Mass I go to have at least 4 children.
I have seen up to 9.

This may be accurate for your parish. But it is still anecdotal.

As I just spent two hours researching concise, easy sources to back up the assertions I made, I was really hoping for authoritative statistics in response.

 

[alwayslooking]

I’ll be going to my first solemn high mass this coming sunday in St. Louis, so I’ll post then what I find. I went to a low mass in Springfield MO at noon, the day before thanksgiving. It was in a small side chapel, but about 20 people were there, with a number of little kids and people in their 20’s-30’s.

I hope you have a great experience. We have tow great parishes in St. Louis that celebrate the EF.

I go to Sts Gregory & Augustine for mass every other week or so, but the most beautiful weekly mass that I have ever seen is high mass at St. Francis DeSales.

 

[jonbhorton]

This may be accurate for your parish. But it is still anecdotal.

As I just spent two hours researching concise, easy sources to back up the assertions I made, I was really hoping for authoritative statistics in response.

Promethius,

Thanks for the hard work! It certainly provides some better information to analyze the situation the Church faces globally in contrast to our own areas.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I used to attend regularly at the Institute of Christ the King in Chicago and I watched as attendance kept increasing. The people still come in the winter even though there’s no real heating in the church as yet. I no longer can attend much, but every time I do, it seems like there’s a great number of people. The TLM is growing.

 

[Esrb99]

I hope you have a great experience. We have tow great parishes in St. Louis that celebrate the EF.

I go to Sts Gregory & Augustine for mass every other week or so, but the most beautiful weekly mass that I have ever seen is high mass at St. Francis DeSales.

I meant Kansas City, haha. I’m actually going to St. Francis De Sales on Ash Wednesday. It will be my first time there… I’m looking forward to it!!!

I actually hope to get a teaching job in KC when I graduate, so that I can go on a weekly+ basis.

Out of curiosity, how is attendance at both parishes?

 

[pbr7w6]

The Oratory here in Saint Louis is very well attended. An article from a few years ago says that roughly 1000 attend each Sunday split between two Masses, an 8am low and 10am high.

Here is an interesting survey conducted yearly that confirms the stable community.

 

[archangel04]

Satistic?

Since the TLM is a deliberate choice, as opposed to a default option or learned habit, it stands to reason that only mature persons are capable of making that choice; therefore, we should expect to find informed and older persons at the EF. Again, the TLM is an issue that requires i) pompting and provision of necessary initial information and, finally, ii) deliberation and determination on the part of the person before attendance even becomes a possibility (in most cases assumed).

Further, it usually requires (above mental labour) additional physical labour or at least time investment and monetary expense to attend the EF, as it is not, on average, as accessible as the OF. Naturally younger people are more liable to lack the means to be able to religiously attend the Old Mass; therefore, we should not be surprised if older persons, who are more likely to enjoy the means to attend the EF, also predominate at the EF.

The EF, it can and should be argued, under present policy, is prejudiced against young persons and teenagers by reason of its lower accessibility especially. The fact that, in spite of these obstacles to the EF that it has, nonetheless, grown and expanded is a credit to the zeal it either attracts or inspires and potentially confirms.

This comment is loaded with prejudice and inuendo and therefore needs not be addressed. The word “cling” gives the impression that they are fighting against some natural law; the word “element” suggests an intention to marginalize, while the addition of the political label “conservative” suggests divisiveness or a political inuendo (on their part) that has been by no means substantiated with any evidence.

As was already demonstrated above, this observation can be argued as much in favour for the EF as it can be used to relativize it.

Statistic?

This remark does not seem to make sense. We would assume that all regions (i.e., the nation) have 18-30 year olds and persons above the age of 65. Are you suggesting that the alleged peculiarly EF regions have more senior citizens?

Assuming you mean Catholic families, then the usual observation that Catholic families attending the EF tend to have more children suggests a relationship between that attendance and adherence to Church teaching in regards to the family. We can, therefore, expect more young persons attending the EF and also the increased likelihood of religious vocations; regardless, the power of nature being what it is, we can expect a dispraportionate increase in attendence at the EF if the observation that those who attend the EF tend to have more children (than their OF counterparts) is true. In time, of course, we can logically expect even a majority.

As Timothy H said to the poster you are replying to, I say to you, “This is a very well thought out and lucid post.”

 

[Mike30]

I can only speak to two,New Orleans, LA. and San Diego, CA. Both Masses are extremely well attended by a wide cross section of society, young, old, middle aged,married, single, familes, teenagers,white, black, hispanic, asian etc. Both of these cities have long histories of celebrating the Traditional Mass and have been lucky in having supportive Bishops.

As an aside, in San Diego they have two Traditional Masses daily and I believe four on Sundays. They also have a fully traditional parish run by the FSSP.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

This may be accurate for your parish. But it is still anecdotal.

As I just spent two hours researching concise, easy sources to back up the assertions I made, I was really hoping for authoritative statistics in response.

I’ve attending a fair number of different churches that have the EF, either exclusively (ICKSP) or just on Sundays and holy days (Diocesan). The three that I go to more often are mostly attended by younger people with families. Sure, there are some elderly people, but they are a minority. One of these churches is in Chicago and two of them are far out in the country.

I suggest you spend a couple hours of research and attend a TLM.

 

[promethius]

I’ve attending a fair number of different churches that have the EF, either exclusively (ICKSP) or just on Sundays and holy days (Diocesan). The three that I go to more often are mostly attended by younger people with families. Sure, there are some elderly people, but they are a minority. One of these churches is in Chicago and two of them are far out in the country.

I suggest you spend a couple hours of research and attend a TLM.

psssst…

I DID spend a couple hours of research and quoted the CARA study that found Catholics who describe themselves as “traditional” average eight years older.

Second, I have attended the TLM. I don’t know why there’s a phenomenon on CAF that says you can’t be FOR both rites, but I love them both.

Locally, our EF in our diocese is populated by approx 18 people aged 60+ and about 2 who are 20-35… one in the choir and one who is obviously a grandaughter.

Now, let me explain something to you about anecdotes: they don’t count for anything in a reasoned discussion. That’s why I cited CARA’s research and not my experience of the EF here.

So please. Cite a source for your claim (one that contradicts CARA’s research)

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

psssst…

I DID spend a couple hours of research and quoted the CARA study that found Catholics who describe themselves as “traditional” average eight years older.

Second, I have attended the TLM. I don’t know why there’s a phenomenon on CAF that says you can’t be FOR both rites, but I love them both.

Locally, our EF in our diocese is populated by approx 18 people aged 60+ and about 2 who are 20-35… one in the choir and one who is obviously a grandaughter.

Now, let me explain something to you about anecdotes: they don’t count for anything in a reasoned discussion. That’s why I cited CARA’s research and not my experience of the EF here.

So please. Cite a source for your claim (one that contradicts CARA’s research)

I don’t have to cite research to state my own experience - which is what I was doing. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[TrueLight]

psssst…

I DID spend a couple hours of research and quoted the CARA study that found Catholics who describe themselves as “traditional” average eight years older.

You know you may be right when it comes to diocesan parishes which offer the EF, but I don’t think it is the same in traditional parishes like FSSP parishes. Lot of families with teens and young children.

 

[Leon_Bloy]

They are pretty well attended where I go.

The demographics of those at the masses favor the young, however. Only about 1/5, at most, seems to be over 60 (just a rough guess) - i.e., people who “grew up” with the older form.

 

[promethius]

I don’t have to cite research to state my own experience - which is what I was doing. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Let’s see, I responded to old salt that his anecdotal experience does not trump statistical reality.

YOU responded with more anecdotal experience and then told me ***I need to research more about the TLM and attend it ***(snarky and rude number 1)

I respond that, again, I have done BOTH of the things you suggested, and requested the same level of proof back and I get… this.

You responded to me with snark first, Curt, unless you are trying to round about publicly state that you are also Old Salt, in which case I would suggest to you that the rules of the forum state that using multiple accounts in the same thread to create the appearance of agreement is against the rules.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Let’s see, I responded to old salt that his anecdotal experience does not trump statistical reality.

YOU responded with more anecdotal experience and then told me ***I need to research more about the TLM and attend it ***(snarky and rude number 1)

I respond that, again, I have done BOTH of the things you suggested, and requested the same level of proof back and I get… this.

You responded to me with snark first, Curt, unless you are trying to round about publicly state that you are also Old Salt, in which case I would suggest to you that the rules of the forum state that using multiple accounts in the same thread to create the appearance of agreement is against the rules.

1. I’m not Old Salt. Frankly, I’m insulted that you’d insinuate that I’m old!
2. The source you you provided is not something I would trust. For one, in that article (“Who are Traditional Catholics?”) that you quote that says trads are eight years older on average, there is no indication on how broad the survey was. Was it a thousand? Ten thousand? It doesn’t say. Secondly, judging by the answers given, many of those self-labeled “traditional” Catholics certainly are not traditional. I’ll give an example: “Three out of five think that abortion should be possible when a woman’s health is in danger.” This means that of those polled, 60% of those who label themselves as “traditional” believe that it’s perfectly okay to just sap the life out of an innocent child. Traditional? I think not. That’s not even Catholic at all! There’s plenty more in that poll, too, that gives evidence that it isn’t accurate in determining anything about the people who attend the EF. Sources are good, but not if they aren’t reliable - and that one source definitely isn’t reliable for what you are trying to determine.

That is one reason I suggested research at the TLM. I was serious (and I didn’t know if you attended or not) because personal experience doesn’t hurt and you get to talk to other trads (you could ask them). Try doing a poll on a site that consists of mainly people who attend the TLM on a regular basis and you’ll get answers from people all over the world on what the relative age groups are. I’m sure in some places the people will be older (I’ve heard that from some people as well). In some they’ll be younger. But again, overall, more people have mentioned to me that their TLM has many, many young people (and this isn’t just my area). Now, is that proof that the TLM has younger people everywhere? No. It could be that people notice it much more because it’s something that stands out, so when they see lots of young couples and children everywhere, it catches their eye and they remember it. It’s an oddity these days because young people (and pardon my saying so) are becoming a rare sight in the U.S.A.

And for what it’s worth, I just meant the attending the TLM comment to be humorous and not insulting. You might (or might not) be surprised how many people I’ve heard who make blanket statements to me about the TLM, who attend it, and what they are like without ever having been to one at all or even knowing a person who goes to one. On the flip side, I attend the NO more often than the TLM now due to circumstances, so I’m very familiar with both.