EF vs. OF Calendar - Breviary LOTH

[El_PAso]

Hi,

I am blessed to have a local daily Tridentine Latin Mass. As a result I am following that calendar.

Sunday October 26th was Christ the King in the EF and this presented a dilemma as I have not quite figured out the Roman Breviary and am using the LOTH. In fact I think I like the LOTH better due to the Office of Readings being so rich. I went ahead and skipped to the last Sunday of ordinary time and said the prayers for Christ the King.

As I go a long I am of course noticing more feasts and commemorations that are not synced. I also foresee a time when I will not have the daily TLM Mass so close or not even be able to get to daily Mass.

I’m assuming you can see the conflict. What if I am now praying the RB and going to a OF Mass or vis versa? Which calendar should I default to or does it matter?

One of the goals of the RB is to pray all the Psalms in one week, the LOTH is 4 weeks. If I am skipping between both I will inevitably be missing some Psalms along the way.

I am under no obligation to pray either so I imagine I am free to chose but am curious as to how others have dealt with this conflict?

I wonder why they changed the Mass so radically any way…seems like all they had to do was say the EF Mass in English (or native tongue) and turn the priest to face the congregation. I find the TLM Mass so much more fulfilling.

Thanks,

El Paso

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder why they changed the Mass so radically any way…seems like all they had to do was say the EF Mass in English (or native tongue) and turn the priest to face the congregation.

You’re describing the Mass as it was right after the Second Vatican Council. Translations were part of the problem as many saw it. It was basically an unstable Mass (everyone was using all sorts of Eucharistic Prayers among other things) until Pope Paul VI promulgated the New Mass (in Latin) with approved (and changing) vernacular. And of course, they changed the calendar along with the 1970 Mass.

St. John Paul II went on in 1984 to approve the TLM, but using the 1962 Missal only in Latin and using the older calendar. It had been virtually suppressed for that long a time.

 

[porthos11]

Hi,

I am blessed to have a local daily Tridentine Latin Mass. As a result I am following that calendar.

Sunday October 26th was Christ the King in the EF and this presented a dilemma as I have not quite figured out the Roman Breviary and am using the LOTH. In fact I think I like the LOTH better due to the Office of Readings being so rich. I went ahead and skipped to the last Sunday of ordinary time and said the prayers for Christ the King.

As I go a long I am of course noticing more feasts and commemorations that are not synced. I also foresee a time when I will not have the daily TLM Mass so close or not even be able to get to daily Mass.

I’m assuming you can see the conflict. What if I am now praying the RB and going to a OF Mass or vis versa? Which calendar should I default to or does it matter?

One of the goals of the RB is to pray all the Psalms in one week, the LOTH is 4 weeks. If I am skipping between both I will inevitably be missing some Psalms along the way.

I am under no obligation to pray either so I imagine I am free to chose but am curious as to how others have dealt with this conflict?

I wonder why they changed the Mass so radically any way…seems like all they had to do was say the EF Mass in English (or native tongue) and turn the priest to face the congregation. I find the TLM Mass so much more fulfilling.

Thanks,

El Paso

You follow the calendar for the edition of the Breviary you are using. So in the case of last Sunday, if you were using the Liturgy of the Hours, then you would have recited the XXX Sunday in Ordinary Time. But the Mass would have been that of Christ the King in the EF. That’s exactly what happened to me (I recite the LOTH, but attend the EF Mass). What happens is that I will simply be observing Christ the King twice, once at Mass last Sunday in the EF, and another in a few weeks with the OF Breviary.

The sync issue is there for those who attend the Mass in one form and the Breviary in another. We’re just going to have to live with it until something is done about the calendar. But I do not try to sync the two calendars; it’s just not worth the trouble and I believe it’s contrary to the mind of the Church.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Also, the LOTH are completely different from the Roman Breviary. The Roman Breviary does all 150 psalms in a week, whereas the LOTH doesn’t do all 150 psalms.

 

[Windmill]

Also, the LOTH are completely different from the Roman Breviary. The Roman Breviary does all 150 psalms in a week, whereas the LOTH doesn’t do all 150 psalms.

Not exactly true.

The RB is oftentimes caught in “Sanctoral Prison”, IOW, you are constantly using the Common of Saints and you are repeating the same Psalms many times a week. Beyond that, most Catholic laymen will not attempt the massive office of Matins, so even if they see a week without any feasts they are still not getting in 150 Psalms.

I personally prefer the RB over the LOTH, but I don’t think that a realistic selling point is that you get all 150 Psalms in a week.

Just keeping it real.

 

[OraLabora]

Not exactly true.

The RB is oftentimes caught in “Sanctoral Prison”, IOW, you are constantly using the Common of Saints and you are repeating the same Psalms many times a week. Beyond that, most Catholic laymen will not attempt the massive office of Matins, so even if they see a week without any feasts they are still not getting in 150 Psalms.

I personally prefer the RB over the LOTH, but I don’t think that a realistic selling point is that you get all 150 Psalms in a week.

Just keeping it real.

This is true. It’s one reason for the simplification of the liturgical calendar into memorials (optional or mandatory-using the ferial psalms most of the time), feasts, and solemnities (the latter two using the festive psalms), a process that was actually started by Pius XII and John XXXIII before Vatican II (under none other than Abp. Annibale Bugnini). Monks are fond of saying that they have a great devotion to St. Feria as the liturgy is less work on ordinary ferias. One of the reasons for the reform of the classes of feast was just that; a feast is supposed to be a special occasion, but in the old calendar it had become so that ordinary days were the special occasions that were looked forward to by religious and clergy as they were less work. Clearly feasts had thus lost their meaning.

One reason I like one of the 1-week, post-Vatican II Monastic Offices (either the traditional Benedictine schema A or the modern Schema B) is that you do have a realistic chance of going through the entire psalter in a week at best, sometimes two weeks. Moreover schema B has a much more realistic Matins; only 6 psalms instead of 12, albeit with the longer readings from LOTH (or from the two-year lectionary cycle, which our abbey uses).

It’s interesting to note though that the traditional Benedictine (post-Vatican II version) has new rubrics that simplify Matins and bring it within reach of laity with a bit of time on their hands. Instead of 12 psalms you can now say them on a 2-week cycle of 6 psalms per day, and the 3d nocturne canticles now ad libitum can be omitted on feasts (but are mandatory on Sundays and solemnities).

Schema B, nominally 150 psalms per week (well, sort of; a couple of psalms that are almost verbatim repeats of others or parts of others are not said), also has several 2-week options:

Option 1: omit 1 of six psalms from Vigils. Odd weeks, Nocturne 1 is 3 psalms and Nocturne 2 is 2 psalms, vice versa in even weeks, 1 psalm is omitted from each of Lauds and Vespers, and there are two mid-day Offices, Terce and Sext, with the latter being the psalms of Sext on odd weeks and of None on even weeks; no repetition of psalms of Compline

Option 2: Even weeks, psalms of Compline for Nocturne 1 and psalms of Nocturne 1 for Nocturne 2; odd weeks, the psalms of Nocturne 2 are used at Nocturne 2, Lauds, minor hours and Vespers as above, and psalms 4, 90 and 133 every day at Compline as in monastic tradition;

Option 3: Compline is replaced by anticipated Vigils the evening before with the same psalm distribution as above;

Option 4: Odd weeks, psalms of Nocturne 1 (3 psalms), even weeks, psalms of Nocturne 2, Lauds & Vespers as above, one mid-day prayer consisting of the psalms of Terce (always psalm 118) and Sext combined on odd weeks, and the psalms of Terce and None on even weeks.

Options 2, 3, and 4 spread the psalter over 2 weeks, a nice compromise between the LOTH and the BR or the full Monastic breviaries.

Another neat thing about the monastic office is that much shorter readings at Vigils are allowed in the summer months, on weekdays. In the Rule of St. Benedict this applies from Easter through All Saints; at our abbey they apply that rule from the Monday following the Octave of Easter until Sept. 15th; only the most optimistic mind could consider November 1st to still be “summer in this part of the world” ! (in fact my wife was hiking on the local mountain today and encountered sleet…)

 

[CountrySteve]

This is true. It’s one reason for the simplification of the liturgical calendar into memorials (optional or mandatory-using the ferial psalms most of the time), feasts, and solemnities (the latter two using the festive psalms), a process that was actually started by Pius XII and John XXXIII before Vatican II (under none other than Abp. Annibale Bugnini). Monks are fond of saying that they have a great devotion to St. Feria as the liturgy is less work on ordinary ferias. One of the reasons for the reform of the classes of feast was just that; a feast is supposed to be a special occasion, but in the old calendar it had become so that ordinary days were the special occasions that were looked forward to by religious and clergy as they were less work. Clearly feasts had thus lost their meaning.

One reason I like one of the 1-week, post-Vatican II Monastic Offices (either the traditional Benedictine schema A or the modern Schema B) is that you do have a realistic chance of going through the entire psalter in a week at best, sometimes two weeks. Moreover schema B has a much more realistic Matins; only 6 psalms instead of 12, albeit with the longer readings from LOTH (or from the two-year lectionary cycle, which our abbey uses).

It’s interesting to note though that the traditional Benedictine (post-Vatican II version) has new rubrics that simplify Matins and bring it within reach of laity with a bit of time on their hands. Instead of 12 psalms you can now say them on a 2-week cycle of 6 psalms per day, and the 3d nocturne canticles now ad libitum can be omitted on feasts (but are mandatory on Sundays and solemnities).

Schema B, nominally 150 psalms per week (well, sort of; a couple of psalms that are almost verbatim repeats of others or parts of others are not said), also has several 2-week options:

Option 1: omit 1 of six psalms from Vigils. Odd weeks, Nocturne 1 is 3 psalms and Nocturne 2 is 2 psalms, vice versa in even weeks, 1 psalm is omitted from each of Lauds and Vespers, and there are two mid-day Offices, Terce and Sext, with the latter being the psalms of Sext on odd weeks and of None on even weeks; no repetition of psalms of Compline

Option 2: Even weeks, psalms of Compline for Nocturne 1 and psalms of Nocturne 1 for Nocturne 2; odd weeks, the psalms of Nocturne 2 are used at Nocturne 2, Lauds, minor hours and Vespers as above, and psalms 4, 90 and 133 every day at Compline as in monastic tradition;

Option 3: Compline is replaced by anticipated Vigils the evening before with the same psalm distribution as above;

Option 4: Odd weeks, psalms of Nocturne 1 (3 psalms), even weeks, psalms of Nocturne 2, Lauds & Vespers as above, one mid-day prayer consisting of the psalms of Terce (always psalm 118) and Sext combined on odd weeks, and the psalms of Terce and None on even weeks.

Options 2, 3, and 4 spread the psalter over 2 weeks, a nice compromise between the LOTH and the BR or the full Monastic breviaries.

Another neat thing about the monastic office is that much shorter readings at Vigils are allowed in the summer months, on weekdays. In the Rule of St. Benedict this applies from Easter through All Saints; at our abbey they apply that rule from the Monday following the Octave of Easter until Sept. 15th; only the most optimistic mind could consider November 1st to still be “summer in this part of the world” ! (in fact my wife was hiking on the local mountain today and encountered sleet…)

Oh cool! I know this wasn’t directed towards me but thats amazing!

 

[El_PAso]

This is true. It’s one reason for the simplification of the liturgical calendar into memorials (optional or mandatory-using the ferial psalms most of the time), feasts, and solemnities (the latter two using the festive psalms), a process that was actually started by Pius XII and John XXXIII before Vatican II (under none other than Abp. Annibale Bugnini). Monks are fond of saying that they have a great devotion to St. Feria as the liturgy is less work on ordinary ferias. One of the reasons for the reform of the classes of feast was just that; a feast is supposed to be a special occasion, but in the old calendar it had become so that ordinary days were the special occasions that were looked forward to by religious and clergy as they were less work. Clearly feasts had thus lost their meaning.

One reason I like one of the 1-week, post-Vatican II Monastic Offices (either the traditional Benedictine schema A or the modern Schema B) is that you do have a realistic chance of going through the entire psalter in a week at best, sometimes two weeks. Moreover schema B has a much more realistic Matins; only 6 psalms instead of 12, albeit with the longer readings from LOTH (or from the two-year lectionary cycle, which our abbey uses).

It’s interesting to note though that the traditional Benedictine (post-Vatican II version) has new rubrics that simplify Matins and bring it within reach of laity with a bit of time on their hands. Instead of 12 psalms you can now say them on a 2-week cycle of 6 psalms per day, and the 3d nocturne canticles now ad libitum can be omitted on feasts (but are mandatory on Sundays and solemnities).

Schema B, nominally 150 psalms per week (well, sort of; a couple of psalms that are almost verbatim repeats of others or parts of others are not said), also has several 2-week options:

Option 1: omit 1 of six psalms from Vigils. Odd weeks, Nocturne 1 is 3 psalms and Nocturne 2 is 2 psalms, vice versa in even weeks, 1 psalm is omitted from each of Lauds and Vespers, and there are two mid-day Offices, Terce and Sext, with the latter being the psalms of Sext on odd weeks and of None on even weeks; no repetition of psalms of Compline

Option 2: Even weeks, psalms of Compline for Nocturne 1 and psalms of Nocturne 1 for Nocturne 2; odd weeks, the psalms of Nocturne 2 are used at Nocturne 2, Lauds, minor hours and Vespers as above, and psalms 4, 90 and 133 every day at Compline as in monastic tradition;

Option 3: Compline is replaced by anticipated Vigils the evening before with the same psalm distribution as above;

Option 4: Odd weeks, psalms of Nocturne 1 (3 psalms), even weeks, psalms of Nocturne 2, Lauds & Vespers as above, one mid-day prayer consisting of the psalms of Terce (always psalm 118) and Sext combined on odd weeks, and the psalms of Terce and None on even weeks.

Options 2, 3, and 4 spread the psalter over 2 weeks, a nice compromise between the LOTH and the BR or the full Monastic breviaries.

Another neat thing about the monastic office is that much shorter readings at Vigils are allowed in the summer months, on weekdays. In the Rule of St. Benedict this applies from Easter through All Saints; at our abbey they apply that rule from the Monday following the Octave of Easter until Sept. 15th; only the most optimistic mind could consider November 1st to still be “summer in this part of the world” ! (in fact my wife was hiking on the local mountain today and encountered sleet…)

Wow!

Great information!

One question. It seems the Invitatory is welded to Matins. If one attempts anticipated Matins is it started with the Invitatory? What if one has abundant time, can they pray Matins at the appropriate time then anticipated the same day as the next day will be full? Invitatory each time?

Thanks, I can’t find this in the Rubrics.

EP

 

[OraLabora]

Wow!

Great information!

One question. It seems the Invitatory is welded to Matins. If one attempts anticipated Matins is it started with the Invitatory? What if one has abundant time, can they pray Matins at the appropriate time then anticipated the same day as the next day will be full? Invitatory each time?

Thanks, I can’t find this in the Rubrics.

EP

I checked my pre-Vatican II monastic breviary. If Matins is anticipated, the verse “Deus in adiutorium…” opens the Office with no invitatory. If it’s said early in the morning, the verse “Domine, labia mea aperies…” is said instead, followed by Psalm 3 and the Invitatory (Psalm 94).

I would think that in private recitation one could say Matins for the current day early in the morning, and anticipate it in the evening for the following day. I do that occasionally myself when I know I won’t be able to recite Vigils (Matins) early in the morning the next day. In choir of course, the hour of Matins will be fixed, but it wouldn’t be unusual, if a monk had to travel the next day or was tied up with some other necessary task, that he anticipate Matins and recite the office privately in his cell.

For anticipated Matins, the invitatory will not be said, so it will end up said no more than once per calendar day.

 

[El_PAso]

I checked my pre-Vatican II monastic breviary. If Matins is anticipated, the verse “Deus in adiutorium…” opens the Office with no invitatory. If it’s said early in the morning, the verse “Domine, labia mea aperies…” is said instead, followed by Psalm 3 and the Invitatory (Psalm 94).

I would think that in private recitation one could say Matins for the current day early in the morning, and anticipate it in the evening for the following day. I do that occasionally myself when I know I won’t be able to recite Vigils (Matins) early in the morning the next day. In choir of course, the hour of Matins will be fixed, but it wouldn’t be unusual, if a monk had to travel the next day or was tied up with some other necessary task, that he anticipate Matins and recite the office privately in his cell.

For anticipated Matins, the invitatory will not be said, so it will end up said no more than once per calendar day.

Thanks again,

I very much appreciate your help with this.

I am at the point of liking a lot of the RB but missing parts of the LOTH.

Oddly I end up setting the RB aside and thinking I’m going back to the LOTH but pick it right back up!

El Paso