Effect of using Latin

[Hokomai]

I have a question about the use of Latin in liturgy and its wider impacts as a language-learning experience. Is there any study of the impact of hearing Latin - do people actually learn any Latin as a result? Have Latin-Mass-goers ever been scientifically tested to see if, in isolation from the Mass, they can understand the phrases used?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I have a question about the use of Latin in liturgy and its wider impacts as a language-learning experience. Is there any study of the impact of hearing Latin - do people actually learn any Latin as a result? Have Latin-Mass-goers ever been scientifically tested to see if, in isolation from the Mass, they can understand the phrases used?

No.
No.
No.

 

[Usige]

Interesting question, but I have to agree with Pfaffenhoffen. Just because you hear the Pater Noster does not teach you what it means or Latin grammar. I do find that some younger people attending Latin masses are more interested in learning Latin as a result of attending, but they still have to use sources other than the Mass to actually learn Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

Just because you hear the Pater Noster does not teach you what it means or Latin grammar. I do find that some younger people attending Latin masses are more interested in learning Latin as a result of attending, but they still have to use sources other than the Mass to actually learn Latin.

Kids who learn English prayers at an early age hardly know what they’re saying either. And, judging by decreasing reading scores, an increasing number never learn any grammar. I even hear “pray for our sinners now…” during group rosaries. And since English is so full of silent letters and homophones, it’s a wonder anyone can spell when they just hear.

 

[fall_fox]

I have a question about the use of Latin in liturgy and its wider impacts as a language-learning experience. Is there any study of the impact of hearing Latin - do people actually learn any Latin as a result? Have Latin-Mass-goers ever been scientifically tested to see if, in isolation from the Mass, they can understand the phrases used?

fall fox

NO ! ! ! I truly believe that even a lot of the priests back then didn’t " KNOW " Latin. To be generous, I think they knew the, Mass but probably could not carry on a conversation in Latin. I really hope that EWTN will lead the way and embrace the new Mass with enthusiasm, they have been adding more and more Latin to the Mass and I feel their audience would be better served by their sticking to the new Mass.

 

[Windmill]

EWTN is using the New Mass. They are just doing it with more Latin as Vatican II asked for:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

Also, the Pope has called for more Latin in the New Mass:

even in the great liturgical celebrations in Rome, no one can sing the Kyrie or the Sanctus any more, no one knows what Gloria means, then a cultural loss has become a loss of what we share in common. To that extent I should say that the Liturgy of the Word should always be in the mother tongue, but there ought nonetheless to be a basic stock of Latin elements that would bind us together. [God and the World, SF, CA: Ignatius, 2002, pp. 417-18]

So I would say that EWTN is thinking with the mind of the Church.

Beyond, that, once you start “banning” Latin, you automatically cut yourself off from the liturgical music treasury of the Church…which is all in Latin. People in the pews are fairly ignorant of the beautiful hymns that have been sung in Catholic churches for over a millennium, and this is because parishes have widely ignored what Vatican II called for. They quickly put in cheesy guitar music, Protestant hymns, or some New Age music that has very little theological substance. Now you have a whole generation of Catholics that have no link with their Catholic ancestors other than by name. Many don’t even believe Catholic dogma, so their beliefs don’t even unite them.

I agree with the Pope: start reclaiming a “Catholic” identity.

 

[Usige]

I agree with the Pope: start reclaiming a “Catholic” identity.

Windmill, I agree with you in many ways. I don’t think that that just using Latin will fix the issue, but I do think embracing Latin as part of that identity is a step in the right direction.

I would be truly happy to see Latin used more often even in post Vatican II Masses as EWTN is doing. Well that and banishing the horrible music like “Here I Am, Lord” and all the rest of the fluff folk music from Dan Schutte and his ilk.

 

[jwinch2]

More likely bringing more Latin into the Mass will lead to people sitting and praying their rosary as they used to rather than being engaged in the Mass…

 

[Usige]

Jason, I can’t speak to how many people prayed the rosary during mass before the 70’s, but I can tell you when ever I go to an FSSP parish offering the Latin mass everyone there is attentive. Going to the local NO mass and people are looking around, staring at their watches, looking at the women in short skirts, and doing any number of things not related to mass.

The point is that people who show up for mass just because they have to will be engaged or disengaged regardless of the language that is used. To be honest I’d be surprised if half the people in the pews now a day couldn’t say a Hail Mary any more than an Ave Maria.

 

[TrueLight]

How can people not learn ANY Latin when the vernacular translation is right near the Latin.

So after hearing the Gloria Patri for years, if someone sees, “et nunc et semper” outside the mass they won’t have any idea what it means?

Or if you’re reading and you see “Pater” you won’t know what that means either? How about “Spiritu?”. And when you hear the word “terra” you won’t think, oh, that’s why we have the term “terra firma”.

I’m not saying people learn inordinate amounts of Latin, but if I have learned a lot from attending Latin mass for 6 months, I can’t see how people, including priests, who have celebrated and assisted at mass for years, have no idea what is being said.

 

[Will_S]

No.
No.
No.

Well as anecdotal counterevidence, I have never studied Latin at all, but not only do I know various prayers in Latin by heart, I also know the meaning of each word and phrase in these prayers. Some of the prayers I know are: Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, Apostle’s Creed, St. Michael, Hail Holy Queen, The Gloria, Nicence Creed, Confiteor, Prayers at the foot of the Altar, and the Prayers after Low Mass.

However, I couldn’t write a paragraph in Latin or hold a conversation in Latin.

 

[Usige]

TrueLight, I agree that you might learn Latin phrases, but that is not the same as learning the Latin language. For instance I recognize ora pro nobis as “pray for us”, but that doesn’t mean I can understand something like “…* ad novas regulas nobis edenda …*” from Caritas In Veritate. I can guess the Pope was talking about something to do with us, but no clue what.

Even though you might be able to tease stuff out, that’s not really learning the language. Just go try to ready any document from the Vatican in Latin and it quickly becomes apparent that the small selection in Mass is not enough to get a full grasp of the language.

 

[Eugenius]

Latin is used in mass is to recite proscribed texts on a specialized subject. It is not used to have a spntaneous conversation with your neighbor, order a salad at a restaurant or read a manual to change the oil in your car. Learning enough Latin at mass is not going to help you in those other areas, nor is it intended to.

 

[ProVobis]

Even though you might be able to tease stuff out, that’s not really learning the language. Just go try to ready any document from the Vatican in Latin and it quickly becomes apparent that the small selection in Mass is not enough to get a full grasp of the language.

You shouldn’t compare the documents written by the Vatican with the Latin in the Mass. Do you understand the bills that Congress writes? Does that mean you don’t have “full” grasp of English, whatever that means?

The Latin in the Mass and the prayers are much easier and should be more familiar to all of us through spaced repetitions. They have been used for many centuries and there’s no reason why they can’t be used going forward. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what they say. Of course, you’re not going to understand them the same way you understand English. But then, I don’t understand things in the English language the same way I understand them in Polish. It’s just the nature of languages and cultures, something the monolingual who just has to have everything in his vernacular and with the proper dialect will probably never understand.

 

[Usige]

Eugenius, while it might be used *in Mass *for reciting proscribed text, that is not it’s only use. All Vatican documents are prepared in Ecclesiastic Latin for various purposes. I also have a couple friends who have Classics degrees and they converse and tell each other jokes in Latin all the time. While Latin is the language of the Church it is not a sacred language and can be used outside the mass which is what the OP was asking about.

 

[jwinch2]

Jason, I can’t speak to how many people prayed the rosary during mass before the 70’s, but I can tell you when ever I go to an FSSP parish offering the Latin mass everyone there is attentive. Going to the local NO mass and people are looking around, staring at their watches, looking at the women in short skirts, and doing any number of things not related to mass.

The point is that people who show up for mass just because they have to will be engaged or disengaged regardless of the language that is used. To be honest I’d be surprised if half the people in the pews now a day couldn’t say a Hail Mary any more than an Ave Maria.

People who go to a FSSP parish do so because they are actively seeking out Latin mass. That is not the same as all of the faithful having to go to Latin Mass. I am glad that the TLM is being more widely offered so that those who wish to attend can do so. In fact, I think its great. However, I am also quite glad that Mass is being offered in English and that is the Mass I attend.

As for your observations comparing the two, in one sentence you say that language doesn’t matter and in the other you say that it does. Which is it?

Finally, at the NO Mass I go to everyone is attentive and seems to want to be there. How can that be, if the NO mass is to blame for lack of attention?

 

[Usige]

ProVobis, I agree 100%. Learning common prayers and responses in Latin is a good thing. Every Catholic should know the correct response to “Dominus vobiscum” is "et cum spiritu tuo" and not “Huh?!?!?”

I read the OP as asking if attending Latin Mass translated into making it easier to learn Latin as a language. If the question is simply do you learn any Latin phrases that is a different question.

 

[mick321]

I have a question about the use of Latin in liturgy and its wider impacts as a language-learning experience. Is there any study of the impact of hearing Latin - do people actually learn any Latin as a result? Have Latin-Mass-goers ever been scientifically tested to see if, in isolation from the Mass, they can understand the phrases used?

Most folks in English-speaking localities learned the Mass and its prayers in English before learning them in Latin.

Scientific testing? I’m not aware if Latin Mass-goers, medical doctors or attorneys, are scientifically tested to see of they can understand the phrases the use in their fields. I would suspect that many physicians, nurses and pharmacists would be familiar with dosage instructions in Latin. Likewise, lawyers, paralegals and courtroom observers will know what is meant when they hear quid pro quo or* ipso facto*. Rest assured, it is not unusual that those who frequent the EF Mass become familiar with its prayers.

 

[mick321]

Interesting question, but I have to agree with Pfaffenhoffen. Just because you hear the Pater Noster does not teach you what it means or Latin grammar. I do find that some younger people attending Latin masses are more interested in learning Latin as a result of attending, but they still have to use sources other than the Mass to actually learn Latin.

I agree. The Traditional Latin Mass is not a classroom where one is likely to learn conversational Latin.

 

[asia53]

How can people not learn ANY Latin when the vernacular translation is right near the Latin.

So after hearing the Gloria Patri for years, if someone sees, “et nunc et semper” outside the mass they won’t have any idea what it means?

Or if you’re reading and you see “Pater” you won’t know what that means either? How about “Spiritu?”. And when you hear the word “terra” you won’t think, oh, that’s why we have the term “terra firma”.

I’m not saying people learn inordinate amounts of Latin, but if I have learned a lot from attending Latin mass for 6 months, I can’t see how people, including priests, who have celebrated and assisted at mass for years, have no idea what is being said.

The EF is only done at my parish once a week, Saturday. All other times, it’s the OF.

We will do Sanctus in latin starting the first day of Advent, until Christmas. Then we’ll do the Sanctus in latin starting the first day of Lent, until Easter.

Other than that, we don’t hear the latin. Sure, most of us can pick out a latin word, here and there, and know it’s meaning.

Our priest is fluent in Latin. Several of us have shown an interest in learning latin, he’s volunteered to co-teach with a high school latin- german teacher, who is a parishioner.