Effect of using Latin

[mick321]

More likely bringing more Latin into the Mass will lead to people sitting and praying their rosary as they used to rather than being engaged in the Mass…

Indeed, that would present another set of challenges to overcome. Many of those otherwise “engaged” in the Mass would have to put forth the effort to learn the structure and prayers of the Rosary. A good thing to know.

 

[Usige]

Jason, I am not saying that everyone should be forced to go to a Latin Mass. Both are valid and people should go where they feel comfortable. I was talking about the use of Latin in Novus Ordo masses. If a priest blesses people saying “In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti” in an NO mass the people shouldn’t go running for the doors because they think they have accidentally ended up in the wrong church.

I also wasn’t saying that EF/Latin Mass = attention and NO/Vernacular Mass = inattention. I was saying that the same people sitting in a pew not paying attention in the 50’s are the same type of people not paying attention today. You should be engaged in the Mass because it’s a holy sacrifice regardless of the language used. Saying that going back to Latin in Mass means people will start praying the rosary implied that people automatically are disengaged when listening to Latin and automatically engaged when listening to English. I was merely pointing out that my observations do not prove out that point.

 

[Protector]

fall fox

NO ! ! ! I truly believe that even a lot of the priests back then didn’t " KNOW " Latin. To be generous, I think they knew the, Mass but probably could not carry on a conversation in Latin. I really hope that EWTN will lead the way and embrace the new Mass with enthusiasm, they have been adding more and more Latin to the Mass and I feel their audience would be better served by their sticking to the new Mass.

Now that information is truly disappointing “fall fox”. I saw on TV about 12months ago that the Vatican had employed (?) a man whose sole job was to keep the Latin language alive. Is he now redundant?

Protector.

 

[Eugenius]

Eugenius, while it might be used *in Mass *for reciting proscribed text, that is not it’s only use. All Vatican documents are prepared in Ecclesiastic Latin for various purposes. I also have a couple friends who have Classics degrees and they converse and tell each other jokes in Latin all the time. While Latin is the language of the Church it is not a sacred language and can be used outside the mass which is what the OP was asking about.

Yes, I realize that, which is why I said “Latin at mass is not going to help you in those other areas, nor is it intended to.”

 

[Usige]

Eugenius, my apologies. I misinterpreted you first sentence as “Latin is [only] used in mass,] to recite proscribed texts on a specialized subject.” Thank you for pointing out my misreading of your statement.

I have ran into too many people that see Latin as a purely liturgical language and passed your statement through the same filter.

 

[Hokomai]

Thanks for these interesting replies. I have some further questions: If you recite the words of a prayer, but do not understand them, are you praying? Or is it just the mental prayer int he background. I know that in Wales and Ireland and New Zealand, liturgy and prayer (and hymns) have been helpful in leeping endangered languages alive. I wonder if with a little more language effort associated with the revival of the Latin Mass, we could breath some life into Latin? I also wondered if speakers of Latin-derived langauges like Spanish are more easily able to pick up the language from the Mass.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Well as anecdotal counterevidence, I have never studied Latin at all, but not only do I know various prayers in Latin by heart, I also know the meaning of each word and phrase in these prayers. Some of the prayers I know are: Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, Apostle’s Creed, St. Michael, Hail Holy Queen, The Gloria, Nicence Creed, Confiteor, Prayers at the foot of the Altar, and the Prayers after Low Mass.

However, I couldn’t write a paragraph in Latin or hold a conversation in Latin.

After all, there were 2 questions only.
Yes
No.

 

[Usige]

If you recite the words of a prayer, but do not understand them, are you praying? Or is it just the mental prayer int he background.

Good question. So if I phonetically learn a prayer in say Manx and repeat it with out knowledge of the meaning is that really a prayer? I guess it really depends on what is in your heart. If you have a firm intent to pray I don’t know if the words are truly relevant.

That also begs if the converse is true. Namely if you repeat a prayer, but in your heart are not praying is that truly prayer. For instance you recite the rosary, but are balancing your check book does that count if you are just going through the motions? My gut is no, but I’ve been wrong before.

As for the other questions about Latin being easier for someone that speaks a derived language I’m not sure; forty years down the road and I can barely speak English coherently most days. Based on my experiences from high school a million years ago I think it might be plausible. For instance I tried to learn both Spanish and French and was horrible at it, but since English is more closely related to German it seemed easier for me to learn it than the Latin based languages.

 

[jwinch2]

I was merely pointing out that my observations do not prove out that point.

I understand but I would suggest again that your exposure to Latin Mass is in a place where everyone there has made a conscious decision to attend that particular Mass. That is not an accurate comparison.

Quite frankly, I think the Mass celebrated by FSSP is incredible in its beauty and reverence. However, I would not attend because it is important for me to be completely into all aspects. If there was an Anglican use parish close to me where I could basically get the TLM in English, I would likely attend but there isn’t. Heck, I would even be thrilled about bringing many aspects of the TLM (again in English) into the NO Mass structure. But none of that is happening anytime soon.

 

[ProVobis]

If you recite the words of a prayer, but do not understand them, are you praying?

One can pray with any action, even silence. Intentions are more important than sound waves.

 

[fall_fox]

EWTN is using the New Mass. They are just doing it with more Latin as Vatican II asked for:

Also, the Pope has called for more Latin in the New Mass:

So I would say that EWTN is thinking with the mind of the Church.

Beyond, that, once you start “banning” Latin, you automatically cut yourself off from the liturgical music treasury of the Church…which is all in Latin. People in the pews are fairly ignorant of the beautiful hymns that have been sung in Catholic churches for over a millennium, and this is because parishes have widely ignored what Vatican II called for. They quickly put in cheesy guitar music, Protestant hymns, or some New Age music that has very little theological substance. Now you have a whole generation of Catholics that have no link with their Catholic ancestors other than by name. Many don’t even believe Catholic dogma, so their beliefs don’t even unite them.

I agree with the Pope: start reclaiming a “Catholic” identity.

fall fox

If I recall, I said nothing about banning Latin from the Roman Rite. I’ll tell you this though, there are more people responding to the prayers during the Mass than when the Mass was all Latin.
Were you around pre-Vatican II? As I have said before in other threads, I was an alter boy for a lot of years, I could zip off the Latin phrases with the best of them, but none of us knew what we were saying. Is that praying?
You mentioned the beautiful hymns, the melody was wonderful, but you still had the same problem with the Latin as you had with the Latin prayers. Your right that they borrowed Protestant Hymns, some were fine others were problematic and clashed with the Catholic Faith. You would have thought that some new Catholic music would have been scored by now. Maybe there has. I don’t know. I have heard good guitar music and I have heard some really bad guitar music. What I mean by bad is that it was a performance and the star of the show was the performer and not Jesus. New age ??? I don’t know what that is.
I want music that enhances the Mass, almost like background to the main event
" THE MASS ". The Mass and the celebration of the Holy Eucharist is really all that matters to me. The body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that is my Heritage, that is my focus. I don’t want to be distracted from that.

 

[Windmill]

The fact is, it’s not our call. The Pope and the Second Vatican Council have said that Latin is to be the norm. Is that evident in most parishes? Are we being faithful to our shepherds? Why are some people so willing to quickly cut themselves off from liturgical forms and music that has graced Catholic sanctuaries for 1500 years? Were these Latin prayers and chants any less invigorating for the generations of Catholics that preceded us (who didn’t know Latin)?

When I look at the Catholic consciousness today, I see a lot of people who don’t know the Faith at all. Contrast that with centuries of saints and martyrs who would die for the Holy Mass (in Latin). Most Catholics in the USA don’t even know what the Eucharist is. Yes, that’s due to a failure of catechesis in part, but does our public worship portray the timeless reality that unfolds before us on the altar? Has immediate intelligibility helped these clueless Catholics believe in the Real Presence more than those Catholics who heard Mass in Latin centuries ago? No.

Pray however you want in private, as long as it is within respectable norms of Christian piety, but when it comes to corporate worship, there is a decorum and hierarchy that should be evident. You speak differently, you act differently when in a public forum.

Missals tell you exactly what is being said, so the argument of unintelligibility is moot. Worship aids can easily be made to tell a congregation what a hymn is about if its in Latin. I know…I helped found a men’s gregorian chant group here in Texas that is enjoying its 6th year of huge success…and we only sing Latin!

People aren’t idiots. Let them learn some Latin prayers and fulfill the Church’s vision of corporate worship.

 

[fall_fox]

Now that information is truly disappointing “fall fox”. I saw on TV about 12months ago that the Vatican had employed (?) a man whose sole job was to keep the Latin language alive. Is he now redundant?

fall fox

FYI, we were taught in Catholic grade school and high school that Latin was used in the Mass because it WAS a dead language. As you know, all language change with usage and the passing of time. Not so with Latin, It is a language that cannot change because it is not being used as a language by anyone. That is why it will always be kept as our base in the Roman Rite
The revised Mass that we will begin to use on Nov.27.is an excellent example, they went back to the Latin Mass to correct some wording and to clarify some wording in the Mass. It all goes back to the Vulgate Bible that St.Gerome translated from Greek.

 

[fall_fox]

EWTN is using the New Mass.

EWTN USING THE NEW MASS ???

I didn’t think anyone was to use it until the first Sunday of Advent 27th Nov…
I’ll have to take a look.

 

[Will_S]

Windmill;8387202:

EWTN is

using the New Mass.

EWTN USING THE NEW MASS ???

I didn’t think anyone was to use it until the first Sunday of Advent 27th Nov…
I’ll have to take a look.

I think he meant only that EWTN is using the postconciliar Mass and not the Tridentine Mass.

 

[Will_S]

fall fox

Were you around pre-Vatican II? As I have said before in other threads, I was an alter boy for a lot of years, I could zip off the Latin phrases with the best of them, but none of us knew what we were saying.

I’ve seen this claim so many times from “the old guys” but I don’t understand it at all. All of the kids who serve for the Latin Mass now know what they’re saying, so why didn’t you guys figure it out back then? It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[At_Trent]

How can people not learn ANY Latin when the vernacular translation is right near the Latin.

So after hearing the Gloria Patri for years, if someone sees, “et nunc et semper” outside the mass they won’t have any idea what it means?

Or if you’re reading and you see “Pater” you won’t know what that means either? How about “Spiritu?”. And when you hear the word “terra” you won’t think, oh, that’s why we have the term “terra firma”.

I’m not saying people learn inordinate amounts of Latin, but if I have learned a lot from attending Latin mass for 6 months, I can’t see how people, including priests, who have celebrated and assisted at mass for years, have no idea what is being said.

You are right.

Most who claim priests mumble the Latin, and claim those in the pews don’t understand the EF have probably never been to a single EF in their life.

 

[Lukesgal]

Our family attends a Latin Mass, my children have learned some Latin from the mass. They listen to the words and prayers from the Latin mass and relate it to the words and prayers they already know in English.

My children asked if they could learn Latin and Greek and surprisingly I have found that there is such a direct correlation with English that I can sometimes skip my English lesson for the day( I homeschool). I don’t feel that Latin is a “dead language” many of us use some form of it everyday.

 

[ProVobis]

fall fox

If I recall, I said nothing about banning Latin from the Roman Rite. I’ll tell you this though, there are more people responding to the prayers during the Mass than when the Mass was all Latin.

When you ever attend a Latin OF, you might be a little surprised as to the enthusiastic response to the prayers. Especially if it’s said by the Pope.

I could zip off the Latin phrases with the best of them, but none of us knew what we were saying. Is that praying?

Yes. I was there too. You were probably told later that you didn’t know what you were saying and you believed them and were sold the vernacular instead. Seems that calculators were sold on almost the same marketing ploy – that people didn’t understand long division, square roots, multiplication, etc. so they didn’t have to do them anymore. The only difference is that calculators are generally accurate; translations are very seldom accurate.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually, if you were studying the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 566. Why does the Church use the Latin language instead of the national language of its children?

A. The Church uses the Latin language instead of the national language of its children:

To avoid the danger of changing any part of its teaching in using different languages;

That all its rulers may be perfectly united and understood in their communications;

To show that the Church is not an institute of any particular nation, but the guide of all nations.

As you know, all language change with usage and the passing of time. Not so with Latin, It is a language that cannot change because it is not being used as a language by anyone.

This is not actually true. When Latin was used extensively by illiterates and half-literates in the West by the 3rd century there had developed a Vulgar Latin, from which the modern Romance languages were derived. (These have either changed or been morphed into what we see today.) The Latin (the grammar, the endings, and the vocabulary) the Church adopted had been codified by Cicero and other Roman classicists and then Christianized by the early Church (for example, “oratio” become prayer instead of speech, etc.) Thus Classic Latin becomes distinguished from Ecclesiastical Latin but both of them have survived thanks to the hard work of monks and/or scholars through almost two millennia.

The revised Mass that we will begin to use on Nov.27.is an excellent example, they went back to the Latin Mass to correct some wording and to clarify some wording in the Mass. It all goes back to the Vulgate Bible that St.Gerome translated from Greek.

It could be said that St. Jerome consolidated the older (poor quality) Latin Vulgate, the Greek Vulgate, Hebrew, and some of the work that he had available at the time. The Greek itself was a translation.