Effect of using Latin

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Such illogical drivel I am sad to note. The Greek Kyrie Eleison is a remnant from the days when Greek was the language for the Eastern Empire which we lost thanks to the human sinfulness of the Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople who could not speak to each other, the Pope could not speak Greek. So much for the absolute need to communicate in the tongue of the other- God does best with us in the vernacular. The Church gave in to the obvious by reversing its stubborness forcing people to be spectators .instead of ACTIVE SHARERS, Vat. 11 document. I recall a a child the rosary was prayed by the whole congregation in October during. Mass and most people prayed it privately the rest of the year. Few used a missal with the text in English when the priest was racing ahead in Latin in some cases. The reference to translating the Mass is irrelevant, do you enjoy reading the sub-titles/texts of a film or prefer to hear and see the actors comunicate in your language.? The average Catholic does not need to know Latin to take part in Mass outside her own parish. I enjoy the Pope praying the Mass’s Euch. Prayer in Latin or Italian and preaching in Italian because I can prayerfully follow the Mass in Spanish, French Italian and Latin and just need a little help from the trnslator for his homilies. I am most comfortable in English.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It’s interesting that you selected the example of “and with your spirit.” I think that this will cause problems in the Catholic Church. Yes, now the translation from Latin to English is more correct–yay! But the problem is that in the United States, we don’t understand the phrase “and with your spirit” in our own language!

We have been influenced heavily by the media when it comes to the word “spirit.” Almost every celeb tosses around the term “spirituality”, even if they are an outspoken atheist. “Spirit” has a decided “New Age” meaning in the United States, and when I hear the word “spirit,” the first thing that comes to my mind is Native American religion, sweat lodges, channelling, seances, soul travel, the spiritualist camp at the edge of my city, etc.

I personally confess–and I wish with all my heart that this were not true, but it is–that I don’t really understand the phrase “and with your spirit” because of a lifetime of media distortion of this word here in the United States. We live in the West, and it is hard for us to understand “and with your spirit.”

I fear that many Catholics besides myself will have a hard time with this and will have to be catechized in more detail in our own language about the Catholic understanding of this phrase and the words “your spirit”, or else we will find ourselves feeling all Shirley MacLaine-y during the Mass and thinking of the priest as our “guide” rather than in personae Christae." And even that [Latin] phrase seems New Agey to me, because it sounds so much like channelling; I would prefer to see a good, clear English tranlation of the phrase.

I actually didn’t think about anything New-Agey at all when I first heard about “And with your spirit,” and I’m pretty Western/American. I was kind of excited because it sounded more religious than “And also with you.” And then I found out that it was more correct, and that was an added bonus. And you point out the catechism problem. Well, yes, we do need better catechism. That’s where many of our problems start.

It is a good, clear English translation of the phrase. Et=and. Cum=with. Spiritu=conjugation of “spirit.” Tur=your. So “et cum spirituo tuo” transliterates as “and with spirit your,” which we change to “and with your spirit.” Can’t get any clearer than that.

 

[TrueLight]

I recall a a child the rosary was prayed by the whole congregation in October during. Mass and most people prayed it privately the rest of the year. Few used a missal with the text in English when the priest was racing ahead in Latin in some cases. The reference to translating the Mass is irrelevant, do you enjoy reading the sub-titles/texts of a film or prefer to hear and see the actors comunicate in your language.? The average Catholic does not need to know Latin to take part in Mass outside her own parish. I enjoy the Pope praying the Mass’s Euch. Prayer in Latin or Italian and preaching in Italian because I can prayerfully follow the Mass in Spanish, French Italian and Latin and just need a little help from the trnslator for his homilies. I am most comfortable in English.

Have you been to an EF mass lately?

Maybe the priests were rushing through the Latin when you were a child. I have no idea. Maybe the changes after Vatican II was the impetus needed to create a greater devotion in the traditional mass.

All I know is that the EF mass of today is celebrated reverently and with great devotion on the parts of both priest and laity.

I think that everyone who is so vehemently against the Latin mass should ask themselves if the pre-Vatican II mass was so bad, then how did we end up with so many Saints, Doctors of the Church and countless conversion of souls?

 

[ProVobis]

Such illogical drivel I am sad to note. The Greek Kyrie Eleison is a remnant from the days when Greek was the language for the Eastern Empire which we lost thanks to the human sinfulness of the Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople who could not speak to each other, the Pope could not speak Greek.

So are you accusing the early Church of being like the Tower of Babel? I haven’t heard that before.

If you remember, the Roman had conquered the Greeks, yet let them keep their language, their arts, their philosophy, etc. I’m not sure I buy your argument.

So much for the absolute need to communicate in the tongue of the other- God does best with us in the vernacular.

Need to reread the Tower of Babel again.

The Church gave in to the obvious by reversing its stubborness forcing people to be spectators .instead of ACTIVE SHARERS, Vat. 11 document.

There was no Vat 11. And the Latin you’re referring to was “actuosa participatio.” Depending on one’s agenda, he can translate this “active” or “actual.” THERE IS NO EXACT TRANSLATION HERE.

I recall a a child the rosary was prayed by the whole congregation in October during. Mass and most people prayed it privately the rest of the year.

I still see some people bringing their rosaries to the OF. What’s your point?

do you enjoy reading the sub-titles/texts of a film or prefer to hear and see the actors comunicate in your language.?

The subtitles work fine for me even in the English so I can make out what they’re talking about. Try it sometime and you’ll probably be amazed at how much you miss by just listening to the English or whatever language you’re trying to follow.

As far as a different language goes, okay for the English but give me the authentic untranslated version too. Again no translation is perfect or completely trustworthy.

 

[Marie5890]

What brings a person to holiness is the ultimate goal.

Some find that way thru the Latin Mass, some find that thru profound devotion to Our Lady , and the list goes on.

Like TrueLight said, the Latin Mass for centuries was the Mass of the Doctors and Saints of the Church, and they were also profoundly devoted to Our Lady.

We all need to look at ourselves and discover what ways the Church makes available to us to become holy. Some will find it in the Latin Mass, others the OF, other profound devotion to Our Lady, the Communion of Saints, whatever.

So many times what the Lord does is takes our own personal biases and preferences, turns them on our head and challenges us to not be so rigid and small minded. That doesnt mean that all paths to holiness will appeal to us as individuals. Obviously the centuries of a wide variety of traditions and devotions show us that there is room for diversity.

If a person feels that the Latin Mass will make them more holy, then they should seek it out.
If a person feels that devotion to Our Lady will make them more holy, then they should seek Her intersession.

The list goes on and God is not limited.

 

[ProVobis]

And even that [Latin] phrase seems New Agey to me, because it sounds so much like channelling; I would prefer to see a good, clear English tranlation of the phrase.

Good luck with that. Or any translation, for that matter. Unlike my step-brother, I quit the translation business a long time ago. All you get is criticized because things don’t SOUND right.

 

[Eugenius]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will try to respond, although I will have to break the post into two parts. Sorry.

That’s nice. But what exactly does that mean other than warm fuzzies?

Yes, I’ve already stated that knowing our history and heritage helps us to understand that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus established, and that’s very important in apologetics and in personal faith.

But just because I am saying the same words that another saint has said before me–what exactly does that do other than thrill me for a few seconds? If I don’t understand those words, what’s the point? I can look at a translation guide, yes–does the act of having to listen and then translate do something to right and left halves of the brain to deepen understanding? I would think that there would be even greater understanding if the words were said or written in my own language, and then a skilled teacher expounded upon the words and discussed applications to modern times and our lives in order to help us internalize the words and apply them to our daily walk with God.

It’s interesting that you selected the example of “and with your spirit.” I think that this will cause problems in the Catholic Church. Yes, now the translation from Latin to English is more correct–yay! But the problem is that in the United States, we don’t understand the phrase “and with your spirit” in our own language!

We have been influenced heavily by the media when it comes to the word “spirit.” Almost every celeb tosses around the term “spirituality”, even if they are an outspoken atheist. “Spirit” has a decided “New Age” meaning in the United States, and when I hear the word “spirit,” the first thing that comes to my mind is Native American religion, sweat lodges, channelling, seances, soul travel, the spiritualist camp at the edge of my city, etc.

I personally confess–and I wish with all my heart that this were not true, but it is–that I don’t really understand the phrase “and with your spirit” because of a lifetime of media distortion of this word here in the United States. We live in the West, and it is hard for us to understand “and with your spirit.”

I fear that many Catholics besides myself will have a hard time with this and will have to be catechized in more detail in our own language about the Catholic understanding of this phrase and the words “your spirit”, or else we will find ourselves feeling all Shirley MacLaine-y during the Mass and thinking of the priest as our “guide” rather than in personae Christae." And even that [Latin] phrase seems New Agey to me, because it sounds so much like channelling; I would prefer to see a good, clear English tranlation of the phrase.

Cat, I’m sorry but I think you are protesting too much and making things up. I doubt Catholics will have a problem with the word “spirit.” There is nothing the least bit “new age” about it and the fact that your mind went there says more about your frame of reference than what the average Catholic is going to think.

 

[Will_S]

I personally confess–and I wish with all my heart that this were not true, but it is–that I don’t really understand the phrase “and with your spirit” because of a lifetime of media distortion of this word here in the United States. We live in the West, and it is hard for us to understand “and with your spirit.”

Presumably by “the West” you mean California, because most, if not all, other European (Western) languages have used the equivalent of “and with your spirit” for the past 50 years.

English has been the odd man out on a lot of these translation issues.

 

[Eugenius]

Music in the Mass is a whole 'nother issue. I am in despair that Catholics or any Christian will ever have any understanding of corporate singing, because of the abysmal state of music education in the United States. I think that the chances that Latin chant will become established in our Masses are about as good as the chances that I will become rich and famous. Yes, it could happen! But boy, there will have to be some major changes in education in this country. At the moment, most Americans have no clue about music other than popular.

It is my personal opinion that ancient music forms will repel most American Catholics, who now have the choice of attending non-denominational megachurches and hearing professionally-done rock/pop music. And even though making this choice puts the Catholic’s soul in danger of hell, I think that Catholics don’t understand their own theology, and will make that choice because here in the United States, “we have to have our tunes.” That’s why most of us (not me!) carry an iPod everywhere we go–music is not just something we listen to, but it is who we are!

And for most American Catholics, Gregorian chant is not “who we are.” There will have to be some huge re-education in the U.S., not just in the Church, but in our schools, to teach us to appreciate music styles other than rock/pop.

This is your personal experience, and I’m pleased for you. But my personal experience, and that of every other person, is different. Latin does not not help me to focus on God; quite the contrary, it irritates me because I can’t understand it and have to look across the page to a translation. Because of my upbringing, I prefer the “common sounds” of my own dear language. As for music, what brings me into absolutely focus and helps me to shut out all else is traditional hymns in English, Gospel hymns (e.g., Fannie Crosby, Phillip Bliss, etc.), and contemporary praise (e.g., “Let There Be Praise,” “Thy Word,” etc.), done with good instrumentals. I like the organ for the traditional and Gospel hymns, although I grew up hearing it with the piano (I’ve learned that this is an evangelical Protestant tradition), and I prefer the piano and other instruments, especially brass, for the contemporary praise. I understand that this kind of language and music may be a total disconnect for you and others. But it’s MY personal experience.

And I totally understand that the Church is not obligated to provide either you or me with “our personal worship music.” But I also understand that the various documents do not forbid other styles of music in the Mass besides Gregorian chant. I think our Church is more reasonable than Her people!

Cat, I’m curious where you have heard Latin during mass (spoken or sung). Are you attending the EF mass or are you talking about an OF mass where Latin is being used for short prayers that are already recited at every mass (whether in English, Latin or any other language)? Some of the things you are saying sound more like a Protestant service instead of the Catholic liturgy. I don’t mean to criticize, but I am a convert that truly loves the traditions of the Catholic church. One of the things I truly detested about the church I left was the constant squabbling about “what it means to me” and “personal preferences.” The Graduale Romanum already proscribes the songs to be sung for each mass; they support and reinforce the readings and what is going on during the liturgy instead of randomly filling space with someone’s favorite song. I find this to be truly liberating. It means that our egos and likes/dislikes are meaningless before the timelessness of the Catholic faith.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Hey, ‘Here I am, Lord’ is all right! It’s ‘praise bands’ you should worry about…

Somewhere between Michael row the boat ashore and all eucharisitic hymns at Mass there is a happy balance. Musical tastes are diverse so getting everyone on the same page is not on, look at the crud that passes for today’s popular music. But what educated contemporary young adult is going to be attracted to the Catholic Church or return to nit by hearing the Agnus Dei sung in Latin. Museums are for old stuff, churches are for warm, living, beathing sinners who seek a contact with their JESUS and do not need a barrier of a foreign language in their way. There is magnificent Latin music available today for personal private prayer and I thoroughly enjoy it
The English at the moment is NOT American vernacular, it was done with Vatican okay by the ICEL. There are some very puzzling changes in the new translation calix is Latin for chalice which is now chalice instead of cup. What was wrong ? Joshua is the name of Jesus in Hebrew what is wrong with Jesus or Miriam for Mary if someone wants to revert to “tradition.” The TRADITION is making JESUS and His Gospel present and alive in ourselves and the Church as His Body not presuming that “ttradition” is a dead laanguage that does not serve today’s CATHOLIC as in universal Church where people need to learn Latin so they can sing at Mass in St Peter’s Basilica.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Somewhere between Michael row the boat ashore and all eucharisitic hymns at Mass there is a happy balance. Musical tastes are diverse so getting everyone on the same page is not on, look at the crud that passes for today’s popular music. But what educated contemporary young adult is going to be attracted to the Catholic Church or return to nit by hearing the Agnus Dei sung in Latin. Museums are for old stuff, churches are for warm, living, beathing sinners who seek a contact with their JESUS and do not need a barrier of a foreign language in their way. There is magnificent Latin music available today for personal private prayer and I thoroughly enjoy it
The English at the moment is NOT American vernacular, it was done with Vatican okay by the ICEL. There are some very puzzling changes in the new translation calix is Latin for chalice which is now chalice instead of cup. What was wrong ? Joshua is the name of Jesus in Hebrew what is wrong with Jesus or Miriam for Mary if someone wants to revert to “tradition.” The TRADITION is making JESUS and His Gospel present and alive in ourselves and the Church as His Body not presuming that “ttradition” is a dead laanguage that does not serve today’s CATHOLIC as in universal Church where people need to learn Latin so they can sing at Mass in St Peter’s Basilica.

I am a very well-educated, contemporary young adult and I’d rather hear a good, reliable Latin rendition of the Agnus Dei than some watered-down, campfire English version. I think most educated, contemporary young adults would agree with me on this one.

 

[Cat]

Presumably by “the West” you mean California, because most, if not all, other European (Western) languages have used the equivalent of “and with your spirit” for the past 50 years.

English has been the odd man out on a lot of these translation issues.

By “the West,” I mean the United States. (I live in Northern Illinois).

 

[Cat]

Cat, I’m curious where you have heard Latin during mass (spoken or sung). Are you attending the EF mass or are you talking about an OF mass where Latin is being used for short prayers that are already recited at every mass (whether in English, Latin or any other language)? Some of the things you are saying sound more like a Protestant service instead of the Catholic liturgy. I don’t mean to criticize, but I am a convert that truly loves the traditions of the Catholic church. One of the things I truly detested about the church I left was the constant squabbling about “what it means to me” and “personal preferences.” The Graduale Romanum already proscribes the songs to be sung for each mass; they support and reinforce the readings and what is going on during the liturgy instead of randomly filling space with someone’s favorite song. I find this to be truly liberating. It means that our egos and likes/dislikes are meaningless before the timelessness of the Catholic faith.

Latin is used in many of the OF Masses in our city (and our diocese). Latin is used at the weekly Benedictions in my parish.

The parishes in our diocese use traditional hymns and contemporary hymns from Catholic hymnals and missalettes. They do not use the contemporary praise hymns that I mentioned in my post–yes, you are absolutely right, these are used in Protestant worship services, which I was part of for 47 years (I’m a convert from evangelical Protestantism). I obviously did not make my post clear–I personally find the music mentioned in my post conducive to worship and concentration on the Lord Jesus, and I personally do NOT find chant or other ancient music styles restful or conducive to thinking about the Lord. But the kind of music that I personally find worshipful is NOT used in any Catholic churches in my city and probably never will be. You do not have to worry that the parishes in our diocese are “Protestantized.” They are not.

I agree that our likes/dislikes are meaningless in the Catholic liturgy, unless you happen to like chant and other ancient music forms. Then–lucky you!–you have it made in the shade!

But Catholics like me have to work hard to allow the Holy Spirit to get us to a place where ancient music will help us to concentrate on God rather than distracting us and irritating us. It will definitely be good for us to go through this “refining process” and lose our “egos.”

I just have one request–those of you who are already humble when it comes to music, and who love chant and the Latin–PLEASE sing OUT LOUD whenever the chants are used in the Masses! It does not help the cause of chant when only a few people are singing so softly that no one can hear. It definitely doesn’t help me to like the stuff when the few people singing it are no where near the notes, and are just singing on a monotone in a very low register (I thought one of the complaints about “new” Catholic hymns is that they are too high. So is the chant lower? Then sing it in the proper register, please!)

On TV and in recordings, Gregorian and other chant is always done by excellent singers with angelic voices, so yes, of course, it sounds holy and worshipful. But all the chant that I have ever heard in real life is done by a cantor who really can’t do it that well, and no one in the congregation sings along and it’s awful. No wonder I don’t like it–it sounds pathetic and disjointed and rambling. SO if you like chant and want it to become established in Masses, then SING! Let us hear it! Show us why chant is the ultimate Catholic music. At the moment, I’m very discouraged about music in the Mass. Show me why I should rejoice rather than be discouraged.

 

[Cat]

Cat, I’m sorry but I think you are protesting too much and making things up. I doubt Catholics will have a problem with the word “spirit.” There is nothing the least bit “new age” about it and the fact that your mind went there says more about your frame of reference than what the average Catholic is going to think.

I hope you’re right.

And I can’t help my frame of reference. I wasn’t raised Catholic. I was raised evangelical Protestant. I can’t go back and change all that.

 

[Cat]

I am a very well-educated, contemporary young adult and I’d rather hear a good, reliable Latin rendition of the Agnus Dei than some watered-down, campfire English version. I think most educated, contemporary young adults would agree with me on this one.

I think that the educated, contemporary young adults that you personally know and are friends with would probably agree with you.

But the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know prefer English and a nice melody.

Actually, most of the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know would prefer rock or pop.

We can’t make general statements about entire demographics of people.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think that the educated, contemporary young adults that you personally know and are friends with would probably agree with you.

But the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know prefer English and a nice melody.

Actually, most of the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know would prefer rock or pop.

We can’t make general statements about entire demographics of people.

But I did it anyways . It’s a forum, not a Department of Defense think tank.

Wow, liberating post for me. No, really. I suddenly feel at ease with posting, and I don’t feel like I have to provide scholarly sources from some ancient scribe’s compendium.

 

[ProVobis]

Joshua is the name of Jesus in Hebrew what is wrong with Jesus

Jesus was one of the inscriptions on the cross. It was in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. And it wasn’t pronounced “GEE-SUZ.”

calix is Latin for chalice

Any translation may have various possibilities. Even in English there are subtle differences in meanings between synonyms such as assume and presume, even though one shows the other in its definition. Stick to the source. If someone uses the word “presume” don’t say he said “assume” or don’t say he said “happy” when he said “gay.”

 

[Bluegoat]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will try to respond, although I will have to break the post into two parts. Sorry.

That’s nice. But what exactly does that mean other than warm fuzzies?

Yes, I’ve already stated that knowing our history and heritage helps us to understand that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus established, and that’s very important in apologetics and in personal faith.

But just because I am saying the same words that another saint has said before me–what exactly does that do other than thrill me for a few seconds? If I don’t understand those words, what’s the point? I can look at a translation guide, yes–does the act of having to listen and then translate do something to right and left halves of the brain to deepen understanding? I would think that there would be even greater understanding if the words were said or written in my own language, and then a skilled teacher expounded upon the words and discussed applications to modern times and our lives in order to help us internalize the words and apply them to our daily walk with God.

It’s interesting that you selected the example of “and with your spirit.” I think that this will cause problems in the Catholic Church. Yes, now the translation from Latin to English is more correct–yay! But the problem is that in the United States, we don’t understand the phrase “and with your spirit” in our own language!

We have been influenced heavily by the media when it comes to the word “spirit.” Almost every celeb tosses around the term “spirituality”, even if they are an outspoken atheist. “Spirit” has a decided “New Age” meaning in the United States, and when I hear the word “spirit,” the first thing that comes to my mind is Native American religion, sweat lodges, channelling, seances, soul travel, the spiritualist camp at the edge of my city, etc.

I personally confess–and I wish with all my heart that this were not true, but it is–that I don’t really understand the phrase “and with your spirit” because of a lifetime of media distortion of this word here in the United States. We live in the West, and it is hard for us to understand “and with your spirit.”

I fear that many Catholics besides myself will have a hard time with this and will have to be catechized in more detail in our own language about the Catholic understanding of this phrase and the words “your spirit”, or else we will find ourselves feeling all Shirley MacLaine-y during the Mass and thinking of the priest as our “guide” rather than in personae Christae." And even that [Latin] phrase seems New Agey to me, because it sounds so much like channelling; I would prefer to see a good, clear English tranlation of the phrase.

Spirit is new age? As in, Holy Spirit?

And it is a good, clear, English translation.

I’ve said “and with thy spirit” all of my adult Christian life, and many other Anglicans would recognize it, and some older Lutherans as well.

People who are totally new to Christianity find the whole thing involves a new language, so I don’t think this is an item that will much stand in their way.

 

[TrueLight]

I hope you’re right.

And I can’t help my frame of reference. I wasn’t raised Catholic. I was raised evangelical Protestant. I can’t go back and change all that.

So was I, but I loveeee Gregorian Chant.

On TV and in recordings, Gregorian and other chant is always done by excellent singers with angelic voices, so yes, of course, it sounds holy and worshipful. But all the chant that I have ever heard in real life is done by a cantor who really can’t do it that well, and no one in the congregation sings along and it’s awful. No wonder I don’t like it–it sounds pathetic and disjointed and rambling.

You really owe it to yourself to attend a mass at least once, where a nice schola/choir does the chanting.

I find that I don’t like it as much when it is a single cantor either.

As for the congregation singing, well I think everyone knows my opinion on that and plenty of folks are happy to call me Protestant because I think the congregation should sing.

If you ever visit NY, please do see if you can attend Father Rutler’s OF mass, at the Church of our Savior, which has beautiful Gregorian chant and polyphonic music.

 

[MontChevalier]

I think that the educated, contemporary young adults that you personally know and are friends with would probably agree with you.

But the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know prefer English and a nice melody.

Actually, most of the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know would prefer rock or pop.

We can’t make general statements about entire demographics of people.

Ahh the decline of US culture. That’s wonderful. Kids care more about dollar bills and sex while people are out there starving to death. Great society.