Effect of using Latin

[Eugenius]

I think that the educated, contemporary young adults that you personally know and are friends with would probably agree with you.

But the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know prefer English and a nice melody.

Actually, most of the educated, contemporary young adults that I personally know would prefer rock or pop.

We can’t make general statements about entire demographics of people.

I have heard that a significant number of people attending the EF mass are from the younger generations.

 

[TradionalWay]

By learning the whole latin mass by heart, wont enable you to speak latin, neither does memorising a spanish mass teach u spanish

People might get encourage to study latin, for a fact, latin is/was??? a subject taught in catholic schools

 

[Cat]

By learning the whole latin mass by heart, wont enable you to speak latin, neither does memorising a spanish mass teach u spanish

People might get encourage to study latin, for a fact, latin is/was??? a subject taught in catholic schools

Latin is taught in the private, college-prep country day school that my daughters attended. Students may begin their study of Latin in 6th grade (the school is age 3 through 12th grade, and up until recently, all students, including the 3-year olds, study French).

Many of the students in that school earn highest honors and medals taking various national and international Latin exams. There are quite a few students who study Latin and love it. They get to the point where they are able to write papers and verses in Latin, and they read and translate various ancient works that were written in Latin.

I only know of one student from the school in recent years who continued his studies in Latin after high school; at one time he was considering becoming a priest, but I believe he decided instead to go into teaching classical studies.

The other school in our city that offers Latin is the traditional Catholic academy, but this school is still pretty new and I’m not sure if they have a track record yet on the various Latin exams.

If I were a student in our city interested in Latin, I would enroll in the country day school because of the 80-year track record of teaching Latin.

I don’t think that any of the other private schools offer Latin, and the public schools are not in the position (financial woes) to offer any extras.

I took Latin in high school, but discontinued it in favor of German. I found Latin extremely dull compared to German, and I never got into classical studies. (I was ranked third in my class out of over 600 students, BTW, so I was no dummy.) So I guess my dislike of Latin goes way back.

 

[ProVobis]

By learning the whole latin mass by heart, wont enable you to speak latin, neither does memorising a spanish mass teach u spanish

But we memorize English words and phrases and word order, don’t we, as part of the learning process? What’s wrong with expanding this process to Latin or Spanish or Polish and learn some real grammar?

 

[ProVobis]

I took Latin in high school, but discontinued it in favor of German. I found Latin extremely dull compared to German, and I never got into classical studies. (I was ranked third in my class out of over 600 students, BTW, so I was no dummy.) So I guess my dislike of Latin goes way back.

I guess by a stretch of that reasoning I should have a dislike of English as Polish was my first language (not to mention that my mother was fluent in both German and Polish.) That, in spite of the fact that I won the Excellence in English award in my high school.

 

[Usige]

I have heard that a significant number of people attending the EF mass are from the younger generations.

Eugenius, you are right (depending on how you define “younger generation”). When we go to the FSSP parish I would say about 70 - 80% of the people are like me and were born after the Second Vatican council (I’d say most are under 40). Generally there are between 8 and 10 altar servers at each mass (obviously all boys).

Most the younger generation there tend to be larger families so even with our 5 kids we aren’t the weirdos like when we go to the local OF parish (“you need seats for how many?”). In speaking with many of the younger generation at EF parishes, a good number are actually “converts” like myself who went through RCIA in an OF parish, but were disappointed by the watered down liturgical forms, lack luster music, and tap dancing around the teaching of the church. Many want a parish that isn’t embarrassed about stating Catholic doctrine. I remember talking to one father there who said his old Lutheran church felt more Catholic than the RC parish down the street from him.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Eugenius, you are right (depending on how you define “younger generation”). When we go to the FSSP parish I would say about 70 - 80% of the people are like me and were born after the Second Vatican council (I’d say most are under 40). Generally there are between 8 and 10 altar servers at each mass (obviously all boys).

Most the younger generation there tend to be larger families so even with our 5 kids we aren’t the weirdos like when we go to the local OF parish (“you need seats for how many?”). In speaking with many of the younger generation at EF parishes, a good number are actually “converts” like myself who went through RCIA in an OF parish, but were disappointed by the watered down liturgical forms, lack luster music, and tap dancing around the teaching of the church. Many want a parish that isn’t embarrassed about stating Catholic doctrine. I remember talking to one father there who said his old Lutheran church felt more Catholic than the RC parish down the street from him.

Exactly, I felt so jipped when I first attended mass, before I converted.

 

[Will_S]

The other school in our city that offers Latin is the traditional Catholic academy, but this school is still pretty new and I’m not sure if they have a track record yet on the various Latin exams.

Most such schools focus on Ecclesial Latin, not on Classic Latin, so the awards may not be on the way. Personally I think the academic focus on Classic Latin is wrong. Latin was, in fact, a living language right up until the early modern era when, suddenly, people decided everything had to be modeled on classic Roman authors. That’s when Latin fossilized.

I took Latin in high school, but discontinued it in favor of German. I found Latin extremely dull compared to German, and I never got into classical studies.

Funny because what most people find most tedious about Latin is the conjugations and declensions and German is kind of like a mini-Latin in that regard.

 

[Usige]

I just have one request–those of you who are already humble when it comes to music, and who love chant and the Latin–PLEASE sing OUT LOUD whenever the chants are used in the Masses! It does not help the cause of chant when only a few people are singing so softly that no one can hear. It definitely doesn’t help me to like the stuff when the few people singing it are no where near the notes, and are just singing on a monotone in a very low register (I thought one of the complaints about “new” Catholic hymns is that they are too high. So is the chant lower? Then sing it in the proper register, please!)

Cat, I would be more than happy to oblige you, but alas the OF parishes in my area only seem to trot out the Agnus Dei during Lent. As for chant, it is essentially unheard of. Even at the end of the Eucharistic prayer, when the paten and chalice are raised, the priest says, but does not chant the doxology (“through him, with him, in him …”). I have noticed that a couple of the priest that were ordained in the last couple years do use plain chant (in English) much more often.

I actually fell in love with Latin when singing in high school some 20 years before I became Catholic.The church has so much beautiful liturgical music that I was shocked by how little of it is used now a day. When we moved to a new parish a few years back I went and talked to the music director about joining the choir and looked at the current song list. About 85% of the repertoire was the folksy stuff turned out since the mid sixties. I was so disheartened that I couldn’t bring myself to join the choir and rarely sing any more. Even if you discount chant, there are hundreds of beautiful mass settings in both Latin and English, but most parishes stick with the contemporary stuff. Not only do I not like the music, but most have that fuzzy-wuzzy kumbaya feel to them; they are both musically and lyrically empty to me. If “Here, I am Lord” is the best we can offer up in praise and adoration then liturgical music may be beyond recovery.

Just imagine if the Church allowed the same thing to happen with other art forms. Could you imagine taking Michelangelo’s Pietà and sticking it in the Vatican basement so that it could be replaced with a sculpture made of polished steel pipes? How about we replace the paintings of the Sistine Chapel with a laser light show? If we can appreciate the old masters in sculpture and canvas why do we lock up church music and pretend like the last 30 - 40 years are the culmination of musical expression? That’s what I fell we have done with both traditional music and Latin; stick it in the basement and pretend it doesn’t exist.

 

[Cat]

Cat, I would be more than happy to oblige you, but alas the OF parishes in my area only seem to trot out the Agnus Dei during Lent. As for chant, it is essentially unheard of. Even at the end of the Eucharistic prayer, when the paten and chalice are raised, the priest says, but does not chant the doxology (“through him, with him, in him …”). I have noticed that a couple of the priest that were ordained in the last couple years do use plain chant (in English) much more often.

I actually fell in love with Latin when singing in high school some 20 years before I became Catholic.The church has so much beautiful liturgical music that I was shocked by how little of it is used now a day. When we moved to a new parish a few years back I went and talked to the music director about joining the choir and looked at the current song list. About 85% of the repertoire was the folksy stuff turned out since the mid sixties. I was so disheartened that I couldn’t bring myself to join the choir and rarely sing any more. Even if you discount chant, there are hundreds of beautiful mass settings in both Latin and English, but most parishes stick with the contemporary stuff. Not only do I not like the music, but most have that fuzzy-wuzzy kumbaya feel to them; they are both musically and lyrically empty to me. If “Here, I am Lord” is the best we can offer up in praise and adoration then liturgical music may be beyond recovery.

Just imagine if the Church allowed the same thing to happen with other art forms. Could you imagine taking Michelangelo’s Pietà and sticking it in the Vatican basement so that it could be replaced with a sculpture made of polished steel pipes? How about we replace the paintings of the Sistine Chapel with a laser light show? If we can appreciate the old masters in sculpture and canvas why do we lock up church music and pretend like the last 30 - 40 years are the culmination of musical expression? That’s what I fell we have done with both traditional music and Latin; stick it in the basement and pretend it doesn’t exist.

I still go back to blaming music education in the U.S. over the last few decades.

As the pressure has mounted on the public schools to teach more academics such as reading, writing, math, and science, the budget for teaching fine arts, music, theater, has been cut and cut again. The elementary school students in our city’s public schools get one half-hour per week of music–that’s it. That’s not enough time to teach children how to read music. It might be enough time to teach correct singing techniques, but there will be little retention because there is no time for regular practice of the skills.

As for teaching music appreciation and literature–fat chance. No time or money.

On top of all these woes, the public schools have been utterly purged of any mention whatsoever of anything Christian, other than to teach how Christians have exploited the rest of the world. In the public schools in our city, the children and teenagers aren’t even allowed to do a biography of Jesus Christ, because He isn’t recognized as a historical figure.

So music teachers are never allowed to use music that has any connection whatsoever with Christianity, and that includes many Latin pieces and classic or baroque pieces. I’m guessing that if by some chance a public school teacher manages to find time to teach any music history or literature at all, he/she will not even mention Gregorian chant because it means acknowledging the existence of the Christian church and faith.

So it’s no wonder that the musicians in our churches are undereducated, and that the non-musicians are completely uneducated about music.

In my opinion, the answer is an organized system of musical catechesis not only in the Catholic schools, but offered in the parish as well for all children who are not enrolled in Catholic schools. I also believe that the catechesis needs to include teenagers and adults. Somehow, we have to teach Americans how to sing and how to appreciate (even if they don’t love) different musical styles.

But until this happens, we will continue to hear contemporary Christian hymns in the Mass because they’re easy to do. And that’s OK with me, because I frankly would rather hear reasonably-well-done contemporary music rather than really badly-done ancient music.

 

[ProVobis]

Most such schools focus on Ecclesial Latin, not on Classic Latin, so the awards may not be on the way. Personally I think the academic focus on Classic Latin is wrong. Latin was, in fact, a living language right up until the early modern era when, suddenly, people decided everything had to be modeled on classic Roman authors. That’s when Latin fossilized.

When I studied Latin at the university level, there was less emphasize on translation (which can wear any one out quickly) and more emphasize on breaking down and comparing the styles of the different classicists. I’m not sure how much they’re doing that these days but it did raise the interest level of the language. I guess one can say the same about Ecclesiastical Latin. Instead of doing the work of translating parts of the Psalms, for example, start looking for patterns between Introits, for example. With some due diligence, you’ll find a lot of similarity. Unlike English which has no declension per se, Latin is a language of endings; when you figure out what a the function of the noun is (Deus, Dei, Deo, Deum, etc.), you’re halfway home in the understanding process without knowing what the words mean.

 

[TradionalWay]

Latin is taught in the private, college-prep country day school that my daughters attended. Students may begin their study of Latin in 6th grade (the school is age 3 through 12th grade, and up until recently, all students, including the 3-year olds, study French).

Many of the students in that school earn highest honors and medals taking various national and international Latin exams. There are quite a few students who study Latin and love it. They get to the point where they are able to write papers and verses in Latin, and they read and translate various ancient works that were written in Latin.

I only know of one student from the school in recent years who continued his studies in Latin after high school; at one time he was considering becoming a priest, but I believe he decided instead to go into teaching classical studies.

The other school in our city that offers Latin is the traditional Catholic academy, but this school is still pretty new and I’m not sure if they have a track record yet on the various Latin exams.

If I were a student in our city interested in Latin, I would enroll in the country day school because of the 80-year track record of teaching Latin.

I don’t think that any of the other private schools offer Latin, and the public schools are not in the position (financial woes) to offer any extras.

I took Latin in high school, but discontinued it in favor of German. I found Latin extremely dull compared to German, and I never got into classical studies. (I was ranked third in my class out of over 600 students, BTW, so I was no dummy.) So I guess my dislike of Latin goes way back.

Haha how I wish I could be in a catholic school

But we memorize English words and phrases and word order, don’t we, as part of the learning process? What’s wrong with expanding this process to Latin or Spanish or Polish and learn some real grammar?

Did i say there was any harm? I just said it wont teach u the language
I know all latin prayers, but if I had to converse in Latin, would get stuck after the 2nd sentence

 

[TradionalWay]

Exactly, I felt so jipped when I first attended mass, before I converted.

 

[ProVobis]

I know all latin prayers, but if I had to converse in Latin, would get stuck after the 2nd sentence

I would think you would have to learn a few everyday words in any language before you speak it.

Not only that, in Latin and some other languages like Polish, you need to learn some verbal grammar as well, as many words are formed depending on their usage.

youtube.com/watch?v=HZHRCuEjpbA&feature=related

 

[Bluegoat]

Most such schools focus on Ecclesial Latin, not on Classic Latin, so the awards may not be on the way. Personally I think the academic focus on Classic Latin is wrong. Latin was, in fact, a living language right up until the early modern era when, suddenly, people decided everything had to be modeled on classic Roman authors. That’s when Latin fossilized.

Funny because what most people find most tedious about Latin is the conjugations and declensions and German is kind of like a mini-Latin in that regard.

I don’t see the issue here. Beginning with classical Latin makes a lot of sense, and if one can read it it is easy to read medieval Latin. Plus the important works of the classical Roman period.

It isn’t always as easy to go the the way, from medieval Latin to classical.

 

[TradionalWay]

I would think you would have to learn a few everyday words in any language before you speak it.

Not only that, in Latin and some other languages like Polish, you need to learn some verbal grammar as well, as many words are formed depending on their usage.

youtube.com/watch?v=HZHRCuEjpbA&feature=related

Basically it depends on what’s your native language, for a Spanish or French speaking person it would be easier to learn Latin (as example) because grammatically and pronunciation they are close. Same goes to a Dutch speaker that learns flemish, its much easier

 

[Bluegoat]

I still go back to blaming music education in the U.S. over the last few decades.

As the pressure has mounted on the public schools to teach more academics such as reading, writing, math, and science, the budget for teaching fine arts, music, theater, has been cut and cut again. The elementary school students in our city’s public schools get one half-hour per week of music–that’s it. That’s not enough time to teach children how to read music. It might be enough time to teach correct singing techniques, but there will be little retention because there is no time for regular practice of the skills.

As for teaching music appreciation and literature–fat chance. No time or money.

On top of all these woes, the public schools have been utterly purged of any mention whatsoever of anything Christian, other than to teach how Christians have exploited the rest of the world. In the public schools in our city, the children and teenagers aren’t even allowed to do a biography of Jesus Christ, because He isn’t recognized as a historical figure.

So music teachers are never allowed to use music that has any connection whatsoever with Christianity, and that includes many Latin pieces and classic or baroque pieces. I’m guessing that if by some chance a public school teacher manages to find time to teach any music history or literature at all, he/she will not even mention Gregorian chant because it means acknowledging the existence of the Christian church and faith.

So it’s no wonder that the musicians in our churches are undereducated, and that the non-musicians are completely uneducated about music.

In my opinion, the answer is an organized system of musical catechesis not only in the Catholic schools, but offered in the parish as well for all children who are not enrolled in Catholic schools. I also believe that the catechesis needs to include teenagers and adults. Somehow, we have to teach Americans how to sing and how to appreciate (even if they don’t love) different musical styles.

But until this happens, we will continue to hear contemporary Christian hymns in the Mass because they’re easy to do. And that’s OK with me, because I frankly would rather hear reasonably-well-done contemporary music rather than really badly-done ancient music.

I think this is on the right track. My parish has had a good choir for many years that sings mostly polyphonic mass settings, but this year we are starting to look at the kids, and have formed a junior choir and cherubs choir. The cherubs are pre-readers and meet for 15 min or so after church to sing, stuff for very young kids obviously.

The junior choir is for readers up to teens, and they meet an hour a week. The week after Canadian Thanksgiving they are singing in church, “The Birds” by Brittian, and another piece which also uses sign language (we are the parish in our diocese which has signed services for the deaf.) They are also working on a gospel/spiritual piece.

But this takes work for sure - our music director is in charge of this, but it means paying him a decent salary.

 

[ProVobis]

Basically it depends on what’s your native language, for a Spanish or French speaking person it would be easier to learn Latin (as example) because grammatically and pronunciation they are close. Same goes to a Dutch speaker that learns flemish, its much easier

FWIW, here are some language trees which may show you a connection:

andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/indoeuropean-language-family-tree.jpg%3Fw%3D325&imgrefurl=http://anthropology.net/2008/02/05/the-indo-european-language-tree/&h=404&w=325&sz=57&tbnid=JrKhbHbQNOTE6M:&tbnh=82&tbnw=66&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlanguage%2Btree%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=language+tree&docid=23BcuVBURrSQKM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wnSMTqP0NOGKsALe3YzKBA&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAQ&dur=200

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.linguatics.com/images/indoeuro02c.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm&h=425&w=798&sz=79&tbnid=XANgVw-Wbk1cjM:&tbnh=59&tbnw=111&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlanguage%2Btree%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=language+tree&docid=SRfLHwHBcyXx7M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wnSMTqP0NOGKsALe3YzKBA&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQ9QEwBA&dur=270

wdtprs.com/images2/11_09_28_latin_lr.jpg

 

[TradionalWay]

FWIW, here are some language trees which may show you a connection:

andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/indoeuropean-language-family-tree.jpg%3Fw%3D325&imgrefurl=http://anthropology.net/2008/02/05/the-indo-european-language-tree/&h=404&w=325&sz=57&tbnid=JrKhbHbQNOTE6M:&tbnh=82&tbnw=66&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlanguage%2Btree%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=language+tree&docid=23BcuVBURrSQKM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wnSMTqP0NOGKsALe3YzKBA&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAQ&dur=200

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.linguatics.com/images/indoeuro02c.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm&h=425&w=798&sz=79&tbnid=XANgVw-Wbk1cjM:&tbnh=59&tbnw=111&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlanguage%2Btree%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=language+tree&docid=SRfLHwHBcyXx7M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wnSMTqP0NOGKsALe3YzKBA&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQ9QEwBA&dur=270

wdtprs.com/images2/11_09_28_latin_lr.jpg

Thank you, exactly what I meant

 

[ProVobis]

Thank you, exactly what I meant

You’re welcome.

There’s a real good book out there which I highly recommend:

Latin Alive: The Survival of Latin in English and the Romance Languages by Joseph B. Solodow (Kindle version available)

It goes into the evolution of words and sounds (dropping of the -m, letter substitutions, barbarian effect, etc.) mostly in the French, Italian, and Spanish with many examples. Very interesting and astute observations on the author’s part.