Effeminate Behavior

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Fan_of_Trent said:
Yes, I agree that this answer may be a little overboard. I will not go any further than that though, as disagreeing with an apologist is grounds for excommunication from these forums. I am going to privately follow up with Fr. Serpa, however.
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Please do. Obviously I was pretty hesitant to bring up this topic in the first place – it took me about a month to do so.
 
hmm a point of consideration also would be the fact that it doesn’t matter even if its not a learned behavior and is at least partially to blame on some underlying genetic factor. For example the Church’s teaching on homosexuality has nothing to do with whether homosexuality is a completely learned behavior or entirely to blame on genetic factors. What matters is whether the actions are in line with the nature of the human person.
 
Allegra said:
You know. I was thinking about this and I notice that alot of the behaviors that most people consider “effeminate” in men are not really flattering characteristics of women either. For example, being whinny, clingy, over-emotional, petty, obsessed with clothes or appearance, are traits that would be called “girly” in a man. None of these traits are really positive aspects of womanhood either. They might be more socially accepted flaws in women, but no man says, “Gee, my girlfriend is so emotionally reactive! It’s so hot!” By the same token, traits that are considered extremely masculine in women are not neccessarily positive aspects of manhood. (ie. selfishness, boisterous behavior, agressiveness etc.)
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When speaking about myself I was talking more about traits such as assertiveness (not aggressive. The idea of me being aggressive is hilarious.) straightforwardness, bluntness, (not rudeness), and pragmatism. I am very loyal and extremely protective of my friends and family. I have taught self-defense classes alongside male police officers. I’m certainly not afraid to get dirty, have undignified fun, or laugh at man humor and movies.

One of my best friends is an effeminate, heterosexual male. He has a master’s in social work and his more feminine traits work well for him, especially when working with battered women and children. He isn’t whiny or clingy, but he does have effeminate mannerisms, has a soft tone and a gentle way of speaking, is more passive, and acts far more on his emotions than his thoughts. His wife adores him.

Sometimes you just have to find what works for who you are.
 
BlueEyedLady said:
When speaking about myself I was talking more about traits such as assertiveness (not aggressive. The idea of me being aggressive is hilarious.) straightforwardness, bluntness, (not rudeness), and pragmatism. I am very loyal and extremely protective of my friends and family. I have taught self-defense classes alongside male police officers. I’m certainly not afraid to get dirty, have undignified fun, or laugh at man humor and movies.

One of my best friends is an effeminate, heterosexual male. He has a master’s in social work and his more feminine traits work well for him, especially when working with battered women and children. He isn’t whiny or clingy, but he does have effeminate mannerisms, has a soft tone and a gentle way of speaking, is more passive, and acts far more on his emotions than his thoughts. His wife adores him.

Sometimes you just have to find what works for who you are.
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I think the idea of masculine and effeminate traits has gone a little overboard. I would not consider any of the traits you mentioned above to be specifically effeminate.
 
Nate13 said:
I think the idea of masculine and effeminate traits has gone a little overboard. I would not consider any of the traits you mentioned above to be specifically effeminate.
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I would, but I know him. He’s one of those people that you are just sure is gay, as stereotypical as that may be. But then you see him with his wife and realize that there’s no way. He’s always been “one of the girls”, minus the makeup. But that’s just who he clicks with based on his interests and personality.
 
Yeah, Fr. Serpa’s answer is rather silly. I know a guy in theater (BTW, I’m also in theater so this is only minorly related to this) who talks with a higher pitched voice, has girls as best friends, and frankly acts more girly than manly. He’s extremely effeminate.

He is also a Catholic who, despite the generally high reputation it has in the theater (I myself refuse to watch either the movie or any productions but absolutely love some of the music), absolutely refuses to watch Rent because he thinks their lifestyle is sickening and a horrible example. He MIGHT be suppressing homosexuality. I don’t know, because I do believe there are effeminate straight men. But he is most definitely not in favor of homosexual marriage or homosexual sex.

I am extremely doubtful that he “learned” his behavior.
 
That said, there are people who aren’t even slightly effeminate that I know but are afflicted by really silly stereotypes.

A loved one of mine having a conversation with me pointed out once that the previously mentioned boy was effeminate, to which I agreed. He said he thought he was homosexual to which I said he could be an effeminate straight man. This made him roll his eyes.

The lead in our play ended up as the lead ever year, and won major awards for both dancing and acting. He was a great actor and a really outstanding dancer. I mentioned him to my loved one and pointed out he wasn’t homosexual. My loved one said he wasn’t sure.

I stared at him (we’ll call him “Bob” and the previously mentioned actor “Jim”) and said, “Bob, have you ever SEEN Jim? First of all he’s ridiculously buff, with six pack abs. He doesn’t act even slightly effeminate. And his girlfriend is one of the most attractive girls in school. Trust me, he’s not even CLOSE to gay.” He backed off.

He just assumed he was homosexual because he was a dancer who did theater. Rather ridiculous, yes?

And after this he continued making remarks about my other friends in theater and my cousin’s boyfriend, telling me who he thought was probably homosexual or effeminate. All of which were very, very not true (and ridiculous).

My overall point? Just because you do things that aren’t traditionally thought of as masculine does not necessarily mean you’re homosexual or effeminate.
 
There are definitely effeminate straight men, but these steroetypes exist probably because it’s difficult for some people to believe that a normally masculine man could be homosexual or a normally feminine woman could be a lesbian. People want to be able to tell them apart, and so attribute homosexuality with distinct mannerisms, speech patterns, and behavior. To be certain, there are definitely some homosexuals that look and act like the opposite sex, but many don’t. Some of the most famous male fashion designers are completely hetero even though it’s commonly assumed that the fashion industry is dominated by gay men. Also, there are quite a few hyper- glamorous designers, models, and actresses that are bi/homosexual, and plenty of manly looking/acting female athletes who are heterosexual. The reason for this might be because people only notice the “obvious” homosexuals. Strangely it doesn’t bother me if someone is homosexual, but it does make me a little uneasy when they act so much like the opposite sex. 😛
 
Nate13 said:
hmm a point of consideration also would be the fact that it doesn’t matter even if its not a learned behavior and is at least partially to blame on some underlying genetic factor. For example the Church’s teaching on homosexuality has nothing to do with whether homosexuality is a completely learned behavior or entirely to blame on genetic factors. What matters is whether the actions are in line with the nature of the human person.
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YES. Which is why Fr. Serpa’s response bothered me so much. Is it not enough that you don’t participate in homosexual activities? Must you also act virtually like a stereotype of your sex – even where it doesn’t come naturally?
 
Allegra said:
You know. I was thinking about this and I notice that alot of the behaviors that most people consider “effeminate” in men are not really flattering characteristics of women either. For example, being whinny, clingy, over-emotional, petty, obsessed with clothes or appearance, are traits that would be called “girly” in a man. None of these traits are really positive aspects of womanhood either. They might be more socially accepted flaws in women, but no man says, “Gee, my girlfriend is so emotionally reactive! It’s so hot!” By the same token, traits that are considered extremely masculine in women are not neccessarily positive aspects of manhood. (ie. selfishness, boisterous behavior, agressiveness etc.)
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The Latin word for effeminacy is “mollities,” which means “softness”. Essentially men who are effeminate are soft or weak. A man can show no feminine characteristics, but still be effeminate morally, spiritually, physically, emotionally, etc.That’s where those undesirable characteristics come from.
 
OrangeOwl said:
YES. Which is why Fr. Serpa’s response bothered me so much. Is it not enough that you don’t participate in homosexual activities? Must you also act virtually like a stereotype of your sex – even where it doesn’t come naturally?
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Which was my point above. While Father Serpa is correct in saying its wrong for males to act as females and vice versa, the prudential judgement occurs when deciding which actions are specifically male and which are female. For example somehow shopping has become something only females like to do and if a guy likes to shop people start wondering if hes gay lol. Or if a guy does ballet that all of sudden obviously means he is gay. Its just absolutely ridiculous anymore.

@BlueEyedLady
I would, but I know him. He’s one of those people that you are just sure is gay, as stereotypical as that may be. But then you see him with his wife and realize that there’s no way. He’s always been “one of the girls”, minus the makeup. But that’s just who he clicks with based on his interests and personality.
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How do you know your not just buying into the stereotype for how homosexuals act?
 
Nate13 said:
@BlueEyedLady

How do you know your not just buying into the stereotype for how homosexuals act?
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I’m not. I have enough gay friends and relatives to know that the stereotypes are quite often not true. And I was engaged to a particularly masculine gay man who shocked everyone when he came out.

But let’s face it, while it isn’t politically correct we all have stereotypes engrained in us, and quite often when we come across someone before we even have time to think or correct ourselves our mind jumps to conclusion and we have reflexively made an assumption.

Using that psychological phenomenon was the only way I could explain his behavior and personality without taking up a whole page, because everyone knew what I meant.
 
I bought a music CD of a Christian band, the name of the band is “Fine China”. Made in the year 2000, not new. The lead singer, Rob Withem, sings with an effeminate whine like many 80’s bands did. I like their alternative musical sound but the vocals alternately seem OK and the next minute I think he sounds vocally overdone and womanly. Unfortunately there are not many “Christian bands” with alternative music sounds but I feel like I should toss the disc in the trash because of his voice! It’s like if I was listening to it and a woman walked in the room I might feel embarrassed about what she might think of me.

Sample of a track from the Cd on you tube here;
youtube.com/watch?v=gt04xHA1jFY

Opinions on that?
 
Allegra said:
I think the problem is that the question is extremely vague. The poster did not clarify what sort of “effeminate behavior” he was concerned about and Father Serpa seemed to conclude that the poster was exhibiting behaviors that negated his appropriate gender role. For all we know, the poster could have been refering to his enjoyment of playing piano, his talent for cooking a souffle, or a taste for an abundance of hair product. (All of which can be fit into an the gender role of a husband and father.)

Not every man needs to be a rifle-toating, elk-hunting, cowboy-hat-wearing, stereotype that would rather be burned alive than caught singing out loud in church. (Likewise, not all women need to be a stay-at-home-mother/Barbie doll that has to put on a full-face of cosmetics before setting out for the gym in order to suit their gender role.)

The mark of a real man is that he serves the Lord, loves and respects his wife, and actively teaches his children to be righteous people. That is the male gender role.
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Indeed. I think it’s very important to draw a distinction between sexual differences which are actually commanded by God (only members of opposite sexes can marry, only men can be ordained, etc.) and sexual differences which are simply artifacts of human culture (boys wear blue, girls wear pink, etc.) Personally I find a lot of stereotypically-feminine traits unattractive, but I am almost as annoyed by girls who display them as I am by guys who display them.
 
This stuff always pains me because I grew up in the “real men can’t cry/express themselves” community and suffered much because of it.
Deo_Gratias42 said:
The Latin word for effeminacy is “mollities,” which means “softness”. Essentially men who are effeminate are soft or weak. A man can show no feminine characteristics, but still be effeminate morally, spiritually, physically, emotionally, etc.That’s where those undesirable characteristics come from.
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So, to be effeminate, that is, to be “like a woman” is to be “weak morally, spiritually, physically, emotionally”? This makes it sound like feminine traits are negative, like being a woman is a negative.
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Mike_tn:
I bought a music CD of a Christian band, the name of the band is “Fine China”. Made in the year 2000, not new. The lead singer, Rob Withem, sings with an effeminate whine like many 80’s bands did. I like their alternative musical sound but the vocals alternately seem OK and the next minute I think he sounds vocally overdone and womanly. Unfortunately there are not many “Christian bands” with alternative music sounds but I feel like I should toss the disc in the trash because of his voice! It’s like if I was listening to it and a woman walked in the room I might feel embarrassed about what she might think of me.

Sample of a track from the Cd on you tube here;
youtube.com/watch?v=gt04xHA1jFY

Opinions on that?
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The singer has a high voice for a man. For the most part, one is unable to control that. It’s just the way your voice was made. I don’t see what the big deal is to be honest.
 
Mike_tn said:
I bought a music CD of a Christian band, the name of the band is “Fine China”. Made in the year 2000, not new. The lead singer, Rob Withem, sings with an effeminate whine like many 80’s bands did. I like their alternative musical sound but the vocals alternately seem OK and the next minute I think he sounds vocally overdone and womanly. Unfortunately there are not many “Christian bands” with alternative music sounds but I feel like I should toss the disc in the trash because of his voice! It’s like if I was listening to it and a woman walked in the room I might feel embarrassed about what she might think of me.

Sample of a track from the Cd on you tube here;
youtube.com/watch?v=gt04xHA1jFY

Opinions on that?
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🤷 Sounds like any other singer to me. By the way, have you heard Geddy Lee? Now that is an interesting voice to say the least… 🙂
 
OrangeOwl said:
Please see: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=701428

Does his answer bother anyone else?

I suppose my main issue is that I don’t necessary agree with the premise that this is always a learned behavior.

Moreover, the idea of certain behaviors reserved for males and certain behaviors reserved for females just… bothers me. I understand the importance of gender roles, but is it ok that I think this might be taking it a little overboard?
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His answer was great. Our post modern culture cannot accept it though. We tend to view all of life as simply a social construct that has no lasting value and can be modified at will. We are too indoctrinated to see even simple advice as truthful and reasonable.

Aquinas taught the being effeminate was a vice.
 
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