Efficacious grace?

[Monica4316]

I was listening to a talk by a traditional priest (Fr Ripperger, FSSP) and he said that our prayers are not “efficacious” without grace. The article I found linked below, says the same thing. It seems to be the traditional understanding.

catholictradition.org/Tradition/efficacious-grace.htm

I was wondering, what does this mean? Does God still hear the prayers of someone who is in mortal sin, if they are praying for repentance, for example? I’m also not sure what the term “efficacious” means.

Thank you

 

[Luvtosew]

"efficacious means not as powerful or effective. I think God hears all prayers and all prayers are effective, are they more effective if in a state of grace without mortal sin, I don’t think so, but the article says different.

 

[thomas_jd]

I was listening to a talk by a traditional priest (Fr Ripperger, FSSP) and he said that our prayers are not “efficacious” without grace. The article I found linked below, says the same thing. It seems to be the traditional understanding.

catholictradition.org/Tradition/efficacious-grace.htm

I was wondering, what does this mean? Does God still hear the prayers of someone who is in mortal sin, if they are praying for repentance, for example? I’m also not sure what the term “efficacious” means.

Thank you

Efficacious means having a desired effect. Think of prayer as a petition to God requesting God granting us a favor, would God be as inclined to hear a request from someone not in communion with Him > being in the state of sin< or someone in communion with Him?
Without grace our prayers will not bring the desired results.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Efficacious means having a desired effect. Think of prayer as a petition to God requesting God granting us a favor, would God be as inclined to hear a request from someone not in communion with Him > being in the state of sin< or someone in communion with Him?
Without grace our prayers will not bring the desired results.

Many of us who drifted away from the Church prayed to return, I prayed the rosary; most of those of us in that condition were also in a state of mortal sin. If the prayers of those in a state of sin are not effective I doubt so many of us would have found our way back. Based on the teaching found in the New Testament I would think the prayers of those in sin are actually preferred by God, recovering His lost sheep. I know the Church teaches otherwise so it’s just a musing on my part.

 

[Monica4316]

hmm… It seems that traditional teaching is that our prayers are efficacious if we’re in a state of grace.

That makes sense for prayer in general… Howeven then we have the question: what if a person is not in a state of grace but is praying for repentance? Fr Ripperger mentioned something about the prayers of the pagans being heard because of their contriteness… so maybe prayers for repentance are different because this is God trying to reach the soul, to bring it to a state of grace?

Also, are there other ways besides Confession of being in a state of grace? For example: let’s say a person decided to go to Confession on a given day. However the day before, they were praying for greater contrition, and received the grace of perfect contrition. Are they now in a state of grace? (though of course they should still go to Confession, and do this before receiving Communion, to be safe, and because repentance involves the desire for Confession if the person is not ignorant of it).

Hope I didn’t say anything heretical lol maybe I’m just overthinking!

 

[eddadonkey]

Monica4316, I would point to you St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, First Part of the Second Part, Question 109, Article 2, whose title is: “Without God’s grace, can man do or wish any good?”

His answer is basically yes and no. Yes, man can do good without grace, but only in respect to natural good. However, no, man cannot do, nor even wish, any supernatural good without God’s grace. And supernatural goods include prayer.

Therefore, the mere fact that you want to pray means that grace is already there. That is, actual grace (not necessarily sanctifying grace). Actual grace is the help from God to do, or even wish, good.

The saints themselves know this fact. St Francis de Sales was known to suddenly stop in the middle of a busy street to pray when the inspiration to do so reaches him.

The problem here is how far we are willing to cooperate with God’s grace, and that is why prayer can be “not efficacious without grace.” Scripture itself says that it is the Holy Spirit Himself that helps us with prayer (Romans 8:26), and St. Thomas even says that without grace you cannot even think of praying. But when you start to pray, will you groan what the Holy Spirit in you is groaning?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Monica4316, I would point to you St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, First Part of the Second Part, Question 109, Article 2, whose title is: “Without God’s grace, can man do or wish any good?”

His answer is basically yes and no. Yes, man can do good without grace, but only in respect to natural good. However, no, man cannot do, nor even wish, any supernatural good without God’s grace. And supernatural goods include prayer.

Therefore, the mere fact that you want to pray means that grace is already there. That is, actual grace (not necessarily sanctifying grace). Actual grace is the help from God to do, or even wish, good.

The saints themselves know this fact. St Francis de Sales was known to suddenly stop in the middle of a busy street to pray when the inspiration to do so reaches him.

The problem here is how far we are willing to cooperate with God’s grace, and that is why prayer can be “not efficacious without grace.” Scripture itself says that it is the Holy Spirit Himself that helps us with prayer (Romans 8:26), and St. Thomas even says that without grace you cannot even think of praying. But when you start to pray, will you groan what the Holy Spirit in you is groaning?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Excellent. You elegantly described the situation to which I referred. I had not considered Actual Grace and was concentrating on Sanctifying Grace, the state to which I was aspiring, we cannot attain the one without the other.

 

[thomas_jd]

Many of us who drifted away from the Church prayed to return, I prayed the rosary; most of those of us in that condition were also in a state of mortal sin. If the prayers of those in a state of sin are not effective I doubt so many of us would have found our way back. Based on the teaching found in the New Testament I would think the prayers of those in sin are actually preferred by God, recovering His lost sheep. I know the Church teaches otherwise so it’s just a musing on my part.

t
The Church indeed teaches otherwise and with very good reasons!
The lost sheep has rejoined the flock. The sheep that was lost was found, the prodical son returns to the Lord. There is rejoicing and a time of joy for he who was lost is found!

God calls for repentance, John the Baptist called us to repent! When you prayed the rosary did you say the angels decade prayer?

“Forgive us our sins save us from the fires of heaven and lead all souls into heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy.”

Those in sin have the entire church praying for their return!

That alone should show one the efficacious use of Prayer.

 

[Hesychios]

I was listening to a talk by a traditional priest (Fr Ripperger, FSSP) and he said that our prayers are not “efficacious” without grace. The article I found linked below, says the same thing. It seems to be the traditional understanding.

catholictradition.org/Tradition/efficacious-grace.htm

I could not find a link to the talk you mentioned on that web page.

It’s hard to get a sense for what he meant.

I was wondering, what does this mean? Does God still hear the prayers of someone who is in mortal sin, if they are praying for repentance, for example? I’m also not sure what the term “efficacious” means.

Thank you

Efficacious means ‘effective’

He is stating that prayer is not effective if so-and-so. I don’t know what the so-and so is though.

I have a few comments based on what little there is to work with:

1] I don’t understand how he can know that your prayers or mine will not be heard, regardless of the state of our souls. How can he know the mind of God?

2] On the surface of it, it seems like this idea is ripe for abuse.
~ It could lead people to believe that if their heartfelt prayers are not (or do not seem to be) answered they must not be in a state of grace.
~ It could lead some people who believe their prayers have been answered to assume they are in a state of grace. I think everyone can see the danger of that line of thinking.

Now I would like someone to explain what conditions must be met for someone to be in a state of grace. That seems to me to be a wide open subject.

 

[Hesychios]

Excellent. You elegantly described the situation to which I referred. I had not considered Actual Grace and was concentrating on Sanctifying Grace, the state to which I was aspiring, we cannot attain the one without the other.

How many types of grace are there?

 

[Bob_Aliano]

t
The Church indeed teaches otherwise and with very good reasons!
The lost sheep has rejoined the flock. The sheep that was lost was found, the prodical son returns to the Lord. There is rejoicing and a time of joy for he who was lost is found!

God calls for repentance, John the Baptist called us to repent! When you prayed the rosary did you say the angels decade prayer?

“Forgive us our sins save us from the fires of heaven and lead all souls into heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy.”

Those in sin have the entire church praying for their return!

That alone should show one the efficacious use of Prayer.

Yes I discovered the prayer when I decided a daily rosary was my best hope, I pray it now for those still out there as well as myself.

There must be a form of grace present in those striving to return to the Church, the journey is difficult and I’m fairly sure I would not have made it alone. In fact I attempted to return several times unsuccessfully until an elderly Monsignor took me aside and worked with me.

 

[Monica4316]

I could not find a link to the talk you mentioned on that web page.

It’s hard to get a sense for what he meant.
Efficacious means ‘effective’

He is stating that prayer is not effective if so-and-so. I don’t know what the so-and so is though.

I have a few comments based on what little there is to work with:

1] I don’t understand how he can know that your prayers or mine will not be heard, regardless of the state of our souls. How can he know the mind of God?

2] On the surface of it, it seems like this idea is ripe for abuse.
~ It could lead people to believe that if their heartfelt prayers are not (or do not seem to be) answered they must not be in a state of grace.
~ It could lead some people who believe their prayers have been answered to assume they are in a state of grace. I think everyone can see the danger of that line of thinking.

Now I would like someone to explain what conditions must be met for someone to be in a state of grace. That seems to me to be a wide open subject.

We know we are in a state of grace if we confessed all our mortal sins I hope that if anyone is worried that they are not in a state of grace becaues their prayer was not answered, they would remember that prayer is always answered according to God’s will, not ours, and also that if they confessed thier mortal sins with true repentance, they are in fact in a state of grace and need not worry

 

[Monica4316]

Monica4316, I would point to you St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, First Part of the Second Part, Question 109, Article 2, whose title is: “Without God’s grace, can man do or wish any good?”

His answer is basically yes and no. Yes, man can do good without grace, but only in respect to natural good. However, no, man cannot do, nor even wish, any supernatural good without God’s grace. And supernatural goods include prayer.

Therefore, the mere fact that you want to pray means that grace is already there. That is, actual grace (not necessarily sanctifying grace). Actual grace is the help from God to do, or even wish, good.

The saints themselves know this fact. St Francis de Sales was known to suddenly stop in the middle of a busy street to pray when the inspiration to do so reaches him.

The problem here is how far we are willing to cooperate with God’s grace, and that is why prayer can be “not efficacious without grace.” Scripture itself says that it is the Holy Spirit Himself that helps us with prayer (Romans 8:26), and St. Thomas even says that without grace you cannot even think of praying. But when you start to pray, will you groan what the Holy Spirit in you is groaning?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

thank you! that truly helps

i just want to check my understanding here… and I realize that this is a complicated subject. I like that you brought up sanctifying and actual grace.

I do have three questions for anyone who knows…

• does “efficacious” refer to sanctifying grace specifically?
• can a person receive actual graces while being in a state of sin?
• If a person is in mortal sin but still wants to love God and wants to pray, and they have repented of their sin and are now waiting for Confession - are those graces ‘actual graces’? And they would receive sanctifying grace when absolved?
• now what if this person made an act of perfect contrition prior to Confession?

haha hope I didn’t mix up all the terms again I’m sure this is complicated and only God knows it completely (for example, what happens when people are praying for repentance). All the categorizing is for our little human minds But the idea of actual and sanctifying grace makes sense. That explains why a person can want to follow God while in a state of sin, and yet isn’t truly completely able to do so until after Confession. I noticed in myself, it’s so much easier to love God after Confession. Is that sanctifying grace?

So sanctifying grace is what makes our souls “alive”. Actual grace is pointing us to God. When we talk about “efficacious” we mean sanctifying grace?

 

[eddadonkey]

thank you! that truly helps

You’re welcome

i just want to check my understanding here… and I realize that this is a complicated subject. I like that you brought up sanctifying and actual grace.

I do have three questions for anyone who knows…

• does “efficacious” refer to sanctifying grace specifically?
• can a person receive actual graces while being in a state of sin?
• If a person is in mortal sin but still wants to love God and wants to pray, and they have repented of their sin and are now waiting for Confession - are those graces ‘actual graces’? And they would receive sanctifying grace when absolved?
• now what if this person made an act of perfect contrition prior to Confession?

haha hope I didn’t mix up all the terms again I’m sure this is complicated and only God knows it completely (for example, what happens when people are praying for repentance). All the categorizing is for our little human minds But the idea of actual and sanctifying grace makes sense. That explains why a person can want to follow God while in a state of sin, and yet isn’t truly completely able to do so until after Confession. I noticed in myself, it’s so much easier to love God after Confession. Is that sanctifying grace?

So sanctifying grace is what makes our souls “alive”. Actual grace is pointing us to God. When we talk about “efficacious” we mean sanctifying grace?

You can read more about grace and its different types and effects in the Catechism.

Actually you got it with your last paragraph: Sanctifying or habitual grace is the gift of God that makes us spiritually alive and pleasing to God. Actual graces are all the supernatural gifts given by God to us that (1) bring us to or keep us in sanctifying grace, (2) are not permanent but are used up after we cooperated with the graces. There are also charisms and sacramental graces, which you can read in the Catechism link I gave you.

There is, lastly, what Leo Trese in The Faith Explained called natural graces, which are all the material things in this world that help us get closer to God, because, you see, all things material came from God and have a supernatural origin (they were all created out of nothing).

sigh I miss that book, I’ll probably buy it again. And I would suggest you would, too, it is an excellent companion to the Catechism.

Now, about efficacious prayer. We must remember that God cannot change, therefore no amount of prayer can change God’s mind about things. However, God allows things to seemingly “change” upon our prayer when in fact He is just waiting for us to pray. This is why the most efficacious prayer is one in which you cooperate fully with the grace (yes, actual grace) that inspired you to pray in the first place.

And yes, you can receive actual grace even while in mortal sin, for without the impetus of God’s grace we wouldn’t even think of repenting:

CCC 2001: The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace.

 

[thistle]

I was listening to a talk by a traditional priest (Fr Ripperger, FSSP) and he said that our prayers are not “efficacious” without grace. The article I found linked below, says the same thing. It seems to be the traditional understanding.

catholictradition.org/Tradition/efficacious-grace.htm

I was wondering, what does this mean? Does God still hear the prayers of someone who is in mortal sin, if they are praying for repentance, for example? I’m also not sure what the term “efficacious” means.

Thank you

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

EFFICACIOUS GRACE. The actual grace to which free consent is given by the will so that the grace produces its divinely intended effect. In the controversy between the Dominicans [led by Báñez (1528-1604)] and the Jesuits [led by Molina (1525-1600)] there was no agreement on what precisely causes an actual grace to become efficacious. In the Báñezian theory, the efficacy of such grace depends on the character of the grace itself; in the Molinist theory, it depends on the fact that it is given under circumstances that God foresees to be congruous with the dispositions of the person receiving the grace. In every Catholic theory, however, it is agreed that efficacious grace does not necessitate the will or destroy human freedom. (Etym. Latin efficax, powerful, effective, efficient, gratia, favor freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE.

 

[PhilOSophia]

On a practical level: who would you rather have pleading your case with God: A sinner or a living saint?

 

[Bob_Aliano]

On a practical level: who would you rather have pleading your case with God: A sinner or a living saint?

Our Blessed Mother.

 

[Hesychios]

We know we are in a state of grace if we confessed all our mortal sins

But that leaves out the people who are outside looking in.

Are the prayers of protestants seeking Truth not heard because they cannot avail themselves?

What about the early Christian concept of the ‘Virtuous Pagan’ ? Is that out the window?

… remember that prayer is always answered according to God’s will, not ours, and also that if they confessed thier mortal sins with true repentance, they are in fact in a state of grace and need not worry

What about the cry from scripture “I do believe, help my unbelief!”. Does Christ turn this one away?

Another thing that disturbs me is this division of grace into different kinds. To me grace is God. You might not share this idea, but to me the question is not whether grace works, but how. What is the point of a grace that does not work?

This topic has more questions than answers.

 

[Luvtosew]

I do believe a sinner can go directly to God and plead his own case.

 

[eddadonkey]

+JMJ+

But that leaves out the people who are outside looking in.

Are the prayers of protestants seeking Truth not heard because they cannot avail themselves?

What about the early Christian concept of the ‘Virtuous Pagan’ ? Is that out the window?

What about the cry from scripture “I do believe, help my unbelief!”. Does Christ turn this one away?

All of these are heard by God. Please see CCC 2001.

Another thing that disturbs me is this division of grace into different kinds. To me grace is God.

Yes, for me and other Catholics, that is grace for us too. Grace is God’s totally unmeritable and free gift of Himself to us. However, it is how God’s gift of Himself works in and on us that it is topic of the different “kinds” of grace.

You might not share this idea, but to me the question is not whether grace works, but how. What is the point of a grace that does not work?

The answer is of course that grace always works, or God is not God at all. However, grace also “builds upon nature,” i.e. grace does not wipe out our natural characteristics, but rather purifies and enhances it…and our nature includes our heart, mind, soul and strength. Remove or lessen any one or all of these and grace will have less or even nothing to work on, and thus grace can be “not efficacious,” in that grace has nothing to “build” upon.

This topic has more questions than answers.

Fortunately for us, these questions have been answered looooooooooooong ago