Efficacy and effects of non-Catholic baptism questions for my dad

[slh3016]

My Dad is not a Christian although he has claimed various religious affiliations in the course of his life (raised, but not baptized, Church of Christ, attended Methodist Church, etc.)

He and my mom divorced 3 years ago dues to years of lying, cheating, emotional abuse on his part, etc. Since she finally left (after 38 years), he has attended church (of various denominations) and seems to be at least somewhat more open-minded to God, Church, etc. But frankly, he knows VERY little of any Christian doctrine of any denomination and just goes wherever he feels like it or wherever he’s invited to go by a friend. Most recently, he says he’s been going to a Church of Christ down the road from his home.

Over Christmas, he found out that we were becoming Catholic and I’d like to give him some information regarding Catholicism, but my most immediate concern is that he has not been baptized.

I’ve been thinking this over and here are my concerns:

If he were to go to the preacher at that small country CofC to be baptized and he was indeed baptized, would all his sin (original, mortal, venial) ALL be washed away? Would he be in a state of sanctifying grace at that moment as he would if he had been baptized in a Catholic Church?

Is contrition and repentance necessary for a non-Catholic baptism to be efficacious? In other words, if he is baptized without a proper attitude toward his past sins, are those sins still wiped away?

Should I actively be encouraging him to keep attending the CofC church in effort for him to most likely receive baptism (these are the best odds) or should I actively be steering him away from it in hope that he might become interested in Catholicism (knowing full well that this is only a VERY slim possibility).

What would you do (besides to keep praying)?

I’m just confused on how I should go about all this. Hopefully, my question makes sense

 

[1ke]

Yes, any Christian baptism washes away all sin prior to baptism.

 

[Neofight]

Yes, any Christian baptism washes away all sin prior to baptism.

With the caveat that they are repentant. The sacrament requires that one “repent and be baptised”.

 

[slh3016]

With the caveat that they are repentant. The sacrament requires that one “repent and be baptised”.

And this is exactly what bothers me. I’ve never once heard anything about the validity of a non-Catholic baptism that required repentance. From the research I’ve done, I’ve only read and heard that it must be of “proper form” using the Trinitarian formula.

So, in my Dad’s case, if he half-heartedly approaches the preacher and asks for baptism, many times these baptisms occur immediately precisely because the CofC believes that there is no salvation without baptism (for persons over the age of reason). I’ve even heard it said in the pulpit that if you dropped dead on your way down the aisle to be baptized, then “too bad so sad.”

Therefore, there is usually not a time of proper catechesis prior to these baptisms to ensure that the baptismal candidate does indeed fully understand the nature of their sin, etc. But, there again, I’ve never read anything in Catholic teaching that says these baptisms are not valid unless the Trinitarian formula isn’t used. That’s why I’m confused

So, in my dad’s particular case, should I just encourage him to be baptized in the most expedient manner (as long as the name of the Trinity is invoked) and then try to talk to him about Catholicism after that?

I guess what I’m really saying/asking is should I give him material that may sway him off the course he is on now toward this Protestant denomination in which he would receive a valid baptism or wait until if/when he’s baptized and then try to gently steer him toward the Catholic Church?

I guess I’m trying to hedge my bets

 

[Elizium23]

With the caveat that they are repentant. The sacrament requires that one “repent and be baptised”.

Where in the Catechism does it say that?

 

[otjm]

Most of us in these forae do not have degrees in theology, and some questions may take a bit more background. So rather than asking the uninitiated for a professional opinion about Sacramental Theology, it would be my suggestion that you call Catholic Answers, ask for the priest on staff, and ask him.

As to the wisdom re: giving your father information. I will be surprised if people don’t weigh in on both sides. And what you will get are opinions; keep in mind that our opinions and $2.75 will probably get you somewhere on the local transit line.

Meanwhile, keep praying. And remember that ultimately, your father will be judged by a just and merciful God, based on your father; not on you, or me, or the Pope.

 

[peter26]

Does the Church of Christ

• Baptise with the intent to perform a baptism as the Catholic church understands the concept?
• Use flowing water?
• Use the Trinity formula?

If so, encourage it, as any baptism meeting these three conditions washes away both original sin and all sins up to that point in a person’s life.

 

[FractalFire]

Where in the Catechism does it say that?

Not sure about the catechism, but my *Systematic Theology *book quotes Ludwig Ott, saying that in his Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, he writes:

“Baptism, provided that the proper dispensations (Faith and sorrow for sin) are present, effects: a) the eradication of sins, both original sin and, in the case of adults, also personal, mortal, or venial sins; b) inner sanctification by the infusion of sanctifying grace.”

However:]

“Even if it be unworthily received, valid baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character…The Baptized person is incorporated, by the Baptismal Character, into the mystical body of Christ…”

Regardless of whether or not the baptism is effective and good for the person without repentance, presumably the unrepentant would not be saved, correct? So perhaps the important thing would be to concentrate on drawing the person closer to what Catholics call the “Baptism of desire” (what I have heard termed the “Baptism by fire”) so that they actually *want *to be saved.

In this case, I think the OP would be better served by drawing his dad towards a deeper love of God and Christianity, so that his Dad will eventually *want *to actually be saved and baptized (the baptism by fire will translate into a desire for the physical seal of the covenant.) Doing the opposite – baptism by water first, then repentance, runs the risk of 1) His Dad remaining as he is instead of repenting 2) The baptism hence never becoming effective and 3) The OP thinking his dad is saved while his dad really continues as he is.

So I would argue that the OP should encourage his Dad towards a basic understanding of what C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity – not pushing him towards his current church, but trying to draw him towards God and Christianity instead. Once he has accepted Christianity, then presumably it will be easier to talk about important theological differences. Either way, once his Dad has got to this point, he can rest much more at ease about the state of his Dad’s salvation. Nonetheless, by all means hand him Catholic resources if you think it will help him in this regard. If you think inviting him to mass will work to, do that as well. (Just be careful, won’t you? Try to show what your heart really is – concerned about your Dad and trying to care for him, rather than merely a Catholic seeking converts for the sake of numbers.)

 

[FractalFire]

Does the Church of Christ

I’ll answer based on Wikipedia info found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Comparative_summary

• Baptise with the intent to perform a baptism as the Catholic church understands the concept?

Well, obviously not exactly as the Roman Catholics understand it, but it looks pretty darn close. What are we looking for exactly when you say “as the Catholic church understands the concept?” That’s a bit vague.

They do believe baptism regenerates and gives spiritual life, like the Catholic church, if that’s what you mean.

• Use flowing water?

Method used is submersion, but I see that Catholic church uses that in the East. I really fail to see why this would matter, except as a reminder of the format used by the ancient church.

• Use the Trinity formula?

Yep!!

If so, encourage it, as any baptism meeting these three conditions washes away both original sin and all sins up to that point in a person’s life.

Not quite – check the quote by a Catholic posted above.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I will keep your father in my prayers. That he finds his way home.

 

[Neofight]

Where in the Catechism does it say that?

[edited]

Because you asked a question you already knew the answer to, I will do the same.

At your parish, in the case of an sound minded and bodied adult seeking baptism, if that person claimed to be non-repenant, would he be baptised anyway, or would he be catechised and only be given the sacrament when his heart and mind is properly disposed?

[edited]

 

[slh3016]

Does the Church of Christ

• Baptise with the intent to perform a baptism as the Catholic church understands the concept?
• Use flowing water?
• Use the Trinity formula?

If so, encourage it, as any baptism meeting these three conditions washes away both original sin and all sins up to that point in a person’s life.

The answer is yes on all three of those. The CofC denomination is one of the few that does believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation so they are in agreement with the Catholic Church in that regard.

 

[slh3016]

I will keep your father in my prayers. That he finds his way home.

Thank you! That has been my prayer for over 20 years now. For whatever reason, my mom finally having enough of his philandering and leaving has caused my dad to have church on his radar a lot more in the last 3 years.

Regardless of whether or not the baptism is effective and good for the person without repentance, presumably the unrepentant would not be saved, correct? So perhaps the important thing would be to concentrate on drawing the person closer to what Catholics call the “Baptism of desire” (what I have heard termed the “Baptism by fire”) so that they actually *want *to be saved.

In this case, I think the OP would be better served by drawing his dad towards a deeper love of God and Christianity, so that his Dad will eventually *want *to actually be saved and baptized (the baptism by fire will translate into a desire for the physical seal of the covenant.) Doing the opposite – baptism by water first, then repentance, runs the risk of 1) His Dad remaining as he is instead of repenting 2) The baptism hence never becoming effective and 3) The OP thinking his dad is saved while his dad really continues as he is.

So I would argue that the OP should encourage his Dad towards a basic understanding of what C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity – not pushing him towards his current church, but trying to draw him towards God and Christianity instead. Once he has accepted Christianity, then presumably it will be easier to talk about important theological differences. Either way, once his Dad has got to this point, he can rest much more at ease about the state of his Dad’s salvation. Nonetheless, by all means hand him Catholic resources if you think it will help him in this regard. If you think inviting him to mass will work to, do that as well. (Just be careful, won’t you? Try to show what your heart really is – concerned about your Dad and trying to care for him, rather than merely a Catholic seeking converts for the sake of numbers.)

The problem with my dad is that he is, in many ways, EXTREMELY narcissistic. In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that a proper disposition (repentant heart, true acknowledgment and remorse of sins, etc.) is necessary but I was confused on some things I’d read in regards of the Catholic Church’s view of baptisms, particularly non-Catholic baptisms because it seemed that the question of “Were you truly repentant at the time you were baptized?” never was an issue. It was always “Was the Trinitarian formula used?” So, in regards to my dad and his narcissistic patterns, I’m not sure he will ever truly acknowledge ALL his sins with true remorse, because in many ways, he feels justified in them

Therefore, if I understand correctly though, a good many non-Catholic baptisms and their validity in taking away personal sin could be called into question. Even I don’t particularly remember my Baptist minister talking with me prior to my baptism about the seriousness of the sins I had committed. I never had to confess those because “I had been saved” so it didn’t matter any more in their theology.

So, in my own case (and even in my husband’s case), I guess when we come into the Church this Easter, we can trust that our baptisms washed away Original Sin and whether it removed personal sin or not, well, I guess we’d just better confess it all

Thanks for all the answers. I think my question is answered.

 

[Elizium23]

It seems logical that repentance is necessary for baptism and it seems that if the Rite of Baptism is observed in a Catholic Rite, it can be presumed from the outward behavior of the subject that he is indeed repentant and baptism will have some efficacy.

But this opens a whole can of worms about efficacy for me. Because what happens if I am not repentant at baptism? My sins are never washed away? What happens if I repent a week or a year later? Are my pre-baptismal sins blotted out at that moment? How repentant do I have to be? A priest requires contrition before he confers absolution, is it simply the same thing for baptism: if the minister detects a sufficient level of repentance then he can administer the sacrament, but if he doesn’t, then he withholds it? What about infants? Is the repentance of their parents required? Or is this simply waived for those under the age of reason? If I am unrepentant when being baptized, do the other effects still take place, or is it wholly invalid? Can an unrepentant adult join the Catholic Church at all, or does canon law have no effect on the unrepentant? How is unrepentance notated on certificates and in registers? I have never heard of an investigation of nullity for an unrepentant person. This could create scandal if unrepentant people join the Church and are later found out not to have been baptized at all. Could Holy Communion and the other sacraments be withheld from them?

 

[otjm]

Thank you! That has been my prayer for over 20 years now. For whatever reason, my mom finally having enough of his philandering and leaving has caused my dad to have church on his radar a lot more in the last 3 years.

The problem with my dad is that he is, in many ways, EXTREMELY narcissistic. In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that a proper disposition (repentant heart, true acknowledgment and remorse of sins, etc.) is necessary but I was confused on some things I’d read in regards of the Catholic Church’s view of baptisms, particularly non-Catholic baptisms because it seemed that the question of “Were you truly repentant at the time you were baptized?” never was an issue. It was always “Was the Trinitarian formula used?” So, in regards to my dad and his narcissistic patterns, I’m not sure he will ever truly acknowledge ALL his sins with true remorse, because in many ways, he feels justified in them

Therefore, if I understand correctly though, a good many non-Catholic baptisms and their validity in taking away personal sin could be called into question. Even I don’t particularly remember my Baptist minister talking with me prior to my baptism about the seriousness of the sins I had committed. I never had to confess those because “I had been saved” so it didn’t matter any more in their theology.

So, in my own case (and even in my husband’s case), I guess when we come into the Church this Easter, we can trust that our baptisms washed away Original Sin and whether it removed personal sin or not, well, I guess we’d just better confess it all

Thanks for all the answers. I think my question is answered.

And I will repeat what I said before; the question you are asking is one concerning a matter of Sacramental Theology, and so far, no one here has indicated they have a degree in it.

So I would suggest again, that you inquire of someone who actually has a degree in it, and resolve that particular question.

In my experience of about 20 years of being involved with RCIA, and with anyone I have had contact with relating to RCIA, and anything which I have read concerning the RCIA process, I have found nothing which indicates that there is either a process or a need to examine a Protestant candidate concerning their thoughts/attitudes/disposition at the time of their Protestant baptism.

That is not proof that there is not a question or a need; nor is it proof that there is no need to question. All I know is that we do not do conditional baptisms for those who were baptized in Protestant denominations except for instances where there is no record obtainable. And we baptize those who were members of denominations whose baptisms we do not recognize (and there is a list). As careful as the Church is concerning that, it is strange that no further inquiry seems to be made; but again, that is not proof of anything.

One thought comes to mind; and that is the maxim that God binds us; we do not bind God.

 

[andrewstx]

Does the Church of Christ

• Baptise with the intent to perform a baptism as the Catholic church understands the concept?
• Use flowing water?
• Use the Trinity formula?

If so, encourage it, as any baptism meeting these three conditions washes away both original sin and all sins up to that point in a person’s life.

I was baptized by dunking in a “Church of Christ” many years ago.
Not any Catholic teachings were referred to.

The water is not moving. It is in a large vat…

Yes they use the Trinitarian formula.

 

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Neofight
With the caveat that they are repentant. The sacrament requires that one “repent and be baptised”.

Catholic Encylopedia explains that proper disposition is necessary to receive grace of baptism in an adult.

The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, c. vii) states that each one receives grace according to his disposition and co-operation. We are not to confound an obstacle (obex) to the sacrament itself with an obstacle to the sacramental grace. In the first case, there is implied a defect in the matter or form, or a lack of the requisite intention on the part of minister or recipient, and then the sacrament would be simply null. But even if all these essential requisites for constituting the sacrament be present, there can still be an obstacle put in the way of the sacramental grace, inasmuch as an adult might receive baptism with improper motives or without real detestation for sin. In that case the person would indeed be validly baptized, but he would not participate in the sacramental grace. If, however, at a later time he made amends for the past, the obstacle would be removed and he would obtain the grace which he had failed to receive when the sacrament was conferred upon him. In such a case the sacrament is said to revive and there could be no question of rebaptism.

Fanning, W. (1907). Baptism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

 

[slh3016]

Catholic Encylopedia explains that proper disposition is necessary to receive grace of baptism in an adult.

The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, c. vii) states that each one receives grace according to his disposition and co-operation. We are not to confound an obstacle (obex) to the sacrament itself with an obstacle to the sacramental grace. In the first case, there is implied a defect in the matter or form, or a lack of the requisite intention on the part of minister or recipient, and then the sacrament would be simply null. But even if all these essential requisites for constituting the sacrament be present, there can still be an obstacle put in the way of the sacramental grace, inasmuch as an adult might receive baptism with improper motives or without real detestation for sin. In that case the person would indeed be validly baptized, but he would not participate in the sacramental grace. If, however, at a later time he made amends for the past, the obstacle would be removed and he would obtain the grace which he had failed to receive when the sacrament was conferred upon him. In such a case the sacrament is said to revive and there could be no question of rebaptism.

Fanning, W. (1907). Baptism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Thanks!

 

[otjm]

I was baptized by dunking in a “Church of Christ” many years ago.
Not any Catholic teachings were referred to.

The water is not moving. It is in a large vat…

Yes they use the Trinitarian formula.

If you got dunked, believe me, the water was moving.

 

[Gorgias]

Catholic Encylopedia explains that proper disposition is necessary to receive grace of baptism in an adult.

So then, rather than looking at what a 1907 non-magisterial source says, let’s look at what current canon law says:

Can. 865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.

Now, we need to keep one thing in mind: strictly speaking, the canon is looking at Christian baptism in the Catholic Church (it doesn’t set up obligations to non-Catholic Christians, per se). But, even with this caveat, we see a minimal set of requirements: the person must intend to be baptized and have ‘sufficient’ instruction about the faith. (We might discuss what this means in the context of a non-Catholic but valid Christian baptism.)

As far as repentance, the canon is rather gentle in its requirements: the (adult) to be baptized is merely ‘urged to have sorrow’ for his personal sins.