Efficacy of EF Office in the Vernacular

[ReaderT]

I see what you are saying — in the Orthodox view, the holy orders kind of “evaporate” if the priest or bishop leaves Orthodoxy, or at the very least, they can no longer be exercised validly (not just licitly).

It is “housekeeping issues” such as this, that will be one obstacle to full communion. I mean this in no bad way whatsoever, but in one sense, the Orthodox are similar to sedevacantists fast-forwarded 1000 years.

Forgive me, I probably should’ve added that the Orthodox don’t view holy orders as an “indelible mark” on the soul, as do Catholics. So somehow or other they leave. You’re right, the difference in understanding would hinder communion talks…

I never fully understood how this view works in light of the fact that the early Church condemned Donatism. Orthodox Churches will often also receive Catholic clerics through a simple vesting, so some semblance of ordination must be recognized?

I don’t know much about Donatism, but you’re right that we receive Catholic clerics through vesting (other times we do ordination). I don’t know why…

 

[phil19034]

Why do you think that something has to be said in Latin to be considered “true liturgy?” So the thousands of U. S. priests and deacons praying the LOTH in English aren’t really engaged in “liturgy?”

That’s not what the OP means.

The Ordinary Form of the LOTH is approved for the vernacular and the translations have been scrutinized to make sure they are legit for Liturgical use.

From what I understand, the Extraordinary Form of the LOTH did not have the same level of scrutinization for the translations. In other words, the translations were not approved for Liturgical (public) use.

 

[phil19034]

That is fair, however, I am living my life by the EF liturgical cycle. There is a great peace in being integrated with one calendar, rather than trying to force them to fit together and reconcile them in your life. This is what I have found lately.

This is why I would choose to pray Vespers with her in a good EF English translation (I do own one such translation). I would, of course, give her the disclaimer that it is not “true” liturgy (or maybe it is, but just illicit?), but that is still has a lot of merit as a devotional prayer.

I will say that I do still pray compline in the Ordinary Form, since it is hardly affected by the calendar differences (outside of pre-Lent stuff), so maybe that would be the best hour to pray with her in the vernacular.

I have two comments:

1. Unless you a member of a Third Order dedicated to praying the Divine Office in the EF (which I don’t think one exists) - you would be totally fine praying the EF LOTH in English.
2. I’m a little confused how you could pray Compline together with your girlfriend since it’s really meant to be prayed before bed, unless praying in community?

 

[jesusalright4me]

Compline would have to be prayed if we are hanging out late in the evening (like 9 o’clock or so). However, I totally agree, it makes more sense right before bed.

In terms of praying the EF Office in English, I am aware that I can do so. However, it would not be true liturgy at that point, as the English is not approved for liturgical use.

Ultimately, the question I am pondering is what are the benefits to praying the Divine Office as the prayer of the Church (in other words, as liturgy) versus praying something modified off of the Divine Office (such as an unapproved English translation of it)?

 

[phil19034]

Ultimately, the question I am pondering is what are the benefits to praying the Divine Office as the prayer of the Church (in other words, as liturgy) versus praying something modified off of the Divine Office (such as an unapproved English translation of it)?

For a lay person, I don’t think there is any difference.

 

[OraLabora]

From what I understand, the Extraordinary Form of the LOTH did not have the same level of scrutinization for the translations. In other words, the translations were not approved for Liturgical (public) use.

Yes, the translations of the EF breviary are simply there to help the user understand the Latin; I myself pray the OF or OF Monastic breviaries in Latin, but my books have the French (my mother tongue) alongside; while I can read the Latin fluently, my understanding is very, very far from that and the French helps. Being OF I could recite in French only but I like Gregorian chant for the Office.

For a lay person, I don’t think there is any difference.

Well, it depends. If simply as private prayer, no there isn’t a difference. If one wants to pray liturgically though, there is, although as liturgy, the EF breviary was never particularly encouraged for the laity. It is, however, encouraged for the OF Liturgy of the Hours. It makes it the natural choice, IMHO, for laymen or women who want to pray it in community, in a group, as a family, or with friends, etc.

It is also a very handy length for those with busy lives, such as working men and women, and diocesan clergy.

 

[TheMortenBay]

I think I was subconsciously waiting for @OraLabora to enter this discussion.

 

[HopkinsReb]

This leads to another, somewhat similar question I’ve had. If a validly ordained Catholic (or Orthodox, for that matter) priest becomes an Anglican, and celebrates their Mass with the intention of doing what the Catholic and Orthodox Church do (consecrate the bread and wine into the true Body and Blood of Christ), is it a valid Mass? Do the bread and wine, in fact, become the true Body and Blood?

The answer to this is yes, and this is likewise why the Catholic Church performs conditional ordinations for Anglican priests who come in through the pastoral provision and recognizes the validity of all of the Orthodox sacraments. The sacraments operate ex opere operato.

 

[ReaderT]

In terms of praying the EF Office in English, I am aware that I can do so. However, it would not be true liturgy at that point, as the English is not approved for liturgical use.

Forgive me, non-Catholic here: what does it mean that your prayer is “true liturgy” versus “not true liturgy” - what’s the essential difference?

 

[TomH1]

Liturgy is the official, public prayer of the Church. Any other prayer is personal, private prayer. Of course, God hears both.

 

[jesusalright4me]

God does here both, but correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t liturgical prayer more “powerful” or of an elevated form?

I know for sure that the Sacrifice of the Mass is for obvious reasons, but would this line of thought apply to the LOTH/Divine Office?

Also, I think we were all waiting for OraLabora to show up. He’s always great to have in a conversation about the Office

 

[OldCAFMember]

The answer to this is yes, and this is likewise why the Catholic Church performs conditional ordinations for Anglican priests who come in through the pastoral provision and recognizes the validity of all of the Orthodox sacraments. The sacraments operate ex opere operato.

They are not ordained conditionally, but absolutely. There were a handful of conditional ordinations, mostly in the early years of the pastoral provision. However, those were rare exceptions, and never the norm.

 

[OraLabora]

Also, I think we were all waiting for OraLabora to show up. He’s always great to have in a conversation about the Office

“Pray without ceasing”… if you figure in time zones, the fact that many say Lauds at 6 am, 9 am or anything in between, same with the other hours, then someone, somewhere, is praying something from the LOTH at all times. It’s a continual prayer chain. There’s got to be some synergy in that