Efficacy of prayers

[JRKH]

Thanks for the compliment!

As I have pointed out to Viki63, there are various Catholics who can be repentant and yet wouldn’t want to seek absolution through confession with different self-justifying excuses and reasons. And since they are not perfectly contrite, wouldn’t it mean that they are in mortal sin? And in mortal sin, they may still require the help of God in certain areas so they would fall on their knees in supplication. And surprising, they got it with a short period of prayer and went straight back to their sinful lifestyles upon receiving certain major blessing.

This cannot really be answered in any sort of simple way…Each individual circumstance will be unique and would need to be addressed in that way.

I will say that one does not have to be “perfectly contrite” in order to be released from mortal sin. How many of us are ever truly and “perfectly” contrite over every sin?
The path to holiness is a struggle and we don’t always get things exactly right.
What is important is that we keep trying…and prayer is a great way to help ourselves along that path.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Thanks James for the sharing such great insight!

You are very welcome…I hope that it is being of some help to you.

I have to clarify that I was talking about cyclical, and not cynical in my post. I hope that it isn’t a wrong use of the word.

:blushing: - - Sorry - It was not your fault - it was mine…you wrote “cyclical” and I saw cynical…my bad.

Since I was asking about the efficacy of prayers, I was curious on whether God will do something “more” if one is more disposed, in the state of grace, etc. It doesn’t sound really much of a relationship if only one party asks and and changes himself and the other party does what she intends from the very beginning.

Well - since one of the parties in this case (God) is already perfect, any change would make him imperfect…and that just isn’t going to work…
As for God doing anything more - well - using the table of food analogy - I think it has more to do with what we are able to see and embrace. The more good we can see with our heart’s eye…the more blessings we will be able to embrace. Blessings that have been there all along.

I did not do a thorough study on blessed Mother Teresa but it seems like what she was saying in her life seem to point in that direction. Which in essence is: we pray for God to do something about something, we do it ourselves, and lo and behold, that favor is granted.

I’m incapable of expressing that thought with my words, so I will have to say it bluntly and with the help of an analogy.

Wouldn’t that make prayer useless? That’s like a child asking his parent for some money to buy something, but the parent stayed silent, and eventually he saved up his pocket money to buy that desired object. If that child knew from the beginning that the parent would not do anything more, he could have not asked and just saved up. Keeping in mind that from the very beginning, there was pocket money from that parent and the parent did not do anything more than to give the initial amount that was arbitrarily decided.

I’ve not studied BMT at all so I will refrain from commenting on this other than to say that - from the view of Mother Theresa and her charism and work - she acts as the head heart and hands of God in the world. The things that she could do came as a result of the strength that God gave her. So this is His blessing to her.
Often times this is the case for all of us…God gives us the strength then expects us to act on that strength…Like the parable of the talents.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I love this example!

However, looking at the case of king Solomon, if he were to not ask for wisdom and asked instead for a long life, riches or the lives of his enemies, wouldn’t that ‘table of food’ be taken away entirely? I would say that at that time he was properly disposed and God favored him hence, blessings was poured out to him.

Well - we cannot know what would have happened of Solomon had made a different choice. As for the rest of the blessings - - I think that you answer this yourself above.
If he had answered differently - it would reflect his not being properly disposed toward God and, rather than God taking away the “table of food” - his lack of proper disposition would simply meant that he could not take advantage of what was available.

I agree with the part on tunnel vision, sometimes, we have so much and yet we think we’re so poor. Indeed, I’m guilty of looking for a specific kind of food, but this food is essential, without it, hardly will I ever be happy, I see this food on tables of so many of those who don’t appreciate it, some have an excess of it and takes a bite off every good piece of it and tossed the uneaten parts on the ground where they just rot or carried by the rats into the abyss. If I am to get my hands on this food, I will savor it with delight, with joy and appreciation not wasting a morsel of it. I’m even willing to give up some other food for this, but it seems like God doesn’t want me to have this food even with such a ‘deal’.

This is certainly true - Too many of us are guilty of this. Again - the journey toward God, our growth in holiness takes time and we need to work through much of this.
I’m sure you saw how often this idea is touched on in the book “Fulfillment of All Desire”.

I don’t understand what you mean by reflecting on Agape, forgive my ignorance but isn’t Agape the unconditional love of God? If we focus on His unconditional love, how will things change? Since even in prayer He doesn’t change anything but want us to change ourselves.

Actually what I said was that we are to reflect Agape to the world not reflect on Agape.
However reflecting on Agape should certainly lead us to reflecting Agape to the world.

Agape is the Greek word for a type of deep, unselfish, brotherly love. In it’s perfect state it is indeed God’s perfect Love for us.
But look at the passages that I mentioned and in the original Greek, you will find that Agape is the word used. Read these passages and insert “agape” for “love”.
Let’s just look at Mt 22:36-40:
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
The Greek uses “agape” for “love” in this. So we are to “agape God” and "agape neighbor as ourselves. Jesus tells us that all of the law and all of the prophets are based on these two commands and these are centered around agape.

I wouldn’t say that the people who has little are more spiritually blessed. I came across some poor who has to worry what to eat for their next meal, eating and drinking leftovers in eateries. Many of them resent God for their lots in life, as well as those who are chronically ill, always in pain and always asking God to take it away to no avail. I can’t even look at them without tearing up. I lack the courage to even speak to them of a benevolent God who will take care of them, all I can do is to lend a little listening ear or some money to help them out in a very short run. On the other hand, those who are full time in ministries are not exactly Buffetts or Zuckerbergs but well-off middle class retirees with children taking care of their needs(We’re Asians ) They lead ministries, are healthy and are always kind to others. So James, wouldn’t it mean that the latter group is more blessed spiritually?

YES - you have struck the nail…our spiritual health and wealth are not dependent on our material health and wealth…whether rich or poor, healthy or sick…different individuals will react differently in their spirit. It has to do with their world view (something else Ralph Martin discusses in the book Fulfillment).
Keep this in mind as you continue to consider this question of prayer…

It’s difficult to be prayerful and involved in Church when even basic necessities are not met or if one is afflicted with pains and diseases. I understand that a person can be poor even in the midst of riches and rich even in poverty but the reality is that it’s always easier to believe in a God when things are going fine.

Indeed - this is true. However I would ask you to consider that is is also easier to become lax and presumptuous when things are going fine. Every circumstance has it’s dangers.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut btw!

You are welcome

P.S. Previously I came across some of your posts at CAF and saw your signature, I purchased the mentioned book and have not regretted a cent. That is pure spiritual gold! Thanks for the recommendation, though it wasn’t specifically directed at me.

Yes - it’s a great book - - - I need to get it out and read it again. Some big changes in my life right now…

 

[JRKH]

Well, I have yet to consider it prayerfully as you’ve suggested, but a protestant friend of mine, already has everything and yet granted even more. It’s like God approving them of believing in their heretical prosperity gospel. I mean, since they are also Christians, they have faith in the Lord, how far will they fall.

I will simply say that this seems to reflect a worldview that is more worldly than heavenly.
I would just suggest that we remember that not all who cry “Lord Lord” will enter the kingdom.

I’m probably a little naive or even stupid, but it seems to me that the protestants(evangelical Christians especially) in general are more blessed in many aspects whereas Catholics seems to be a suffering bunch, God gives the protestant good things and permits trials and tribulations on His very own Catholic kids, can’t ever understand this infinite mind of His.

Anyway, as per your suggestion, I will pray and ask that God may show me a glimpse or enlighten my naivete.

I don’t think you are either naive or stupid…Like the rest of us you are just struggling along and learning as best you can.

I think that our evangelical brothers have some good practices and outlooks. “Prosperity Gospel” is not one of them, but certainly joy and an expectant trust are good things.
I’ve known of a number of protestant evangelicals who are just fine so long as things are going their way, but when things go wrong, their theology has no way to handle it.
The “Prosperity gospel” types have no room in their theology for suffering…and this can lead to a catastrophic loss of faith.

Peace
James

 

[wcknight]

Sometimes God takes quite a long time to answer our prayers. St Monica prayed for her son St. Augustine for years before he changed his ways. He really went through a wild and sinful life style long before he changed.

There are a few things that I’'ve prayed for over a decade. It may not even happen in my lifetime, but I know God will answer me because I believe He will just as he answered St Monica’s prayers.

I guess I have been one of these lucky ones, because just about everything important that I have ever prayed for has been answered. NOT always in the manner that I wanted, but many times in ways far better than how I originally wanted.

I don’t pray to win the lottery, because I know it would probably change me. I don’t pray for fame or fortune, because that means nothing to me. A lot of what I pray for is the strength to make it through difficult times, the faith and courage to do what God wants me to do, and for faith for my family and friends.

Sometimes, God may not directly give you what you want, but gives you the will power or ability to obtain what you want or need. You may want to become self sufficient or moderately wealthy, but are initially poor and struggling. So God gives you you the intelligence and determination to go to school and get a decent job. With a little bit of financial wisdom and long years of saving and some hard work, you eventually will attain what you want. You may not hit the lottery, but you can retire and live comfortably.

Along the way you learn some valuable life lessons, that you would not have gotten, had God simply given you a winning lottery ticket.

 

[wcknight]

Just because some protestants get rich does not mean they will fall, nor does it mean God approves of their faulty faith… There are a lot of rich Catholics as well as many other rich folks in other faiths.

Wealth is not a measure of God’s approval or disapproval. IF it were, then the Saudis and other oil rich folks would be God’s favorites. AS Jesus says, rich folks have a harder road to travel. Wealth has its own set of responsibilities, not the least of which is to help the poor and support the Church in proportion to their wealth.

 

[Joybearer]

You are very welcome…I hope that it is being of some help to you.

:blushing: - - Sorry - It was not your fault - it was mine…you wrote “cyclical” and I saw cynical…my bad.

Well - since one of the parties in this case (God) is already perfect, any change would make him imperfect…and that just isn’t going to work…
As for God doing anything more - well - using the table of food analogy - I think it has more to do with what we are able to see and embrace. The more good we can see with our heart’s eye…the more blessings we will be able to embrace. Blessings that have been there all along.

I’ve not studied BMT at all so I will refrain from commenting on this other than to say that - from the view of Mother Theresa and her charism and work - she acts as the head heart and hands of God in the world. The things that she could do came as a result of the strength that God gave her. So this is His blessing to her.
Often times this is the case for all of us…God gives us the strength then expects us to act on that strength…Like the parable of the talents.

Peace
James

James, I think that in discussion with you, it has somehow given me a slight paradigm shift. I can feel it but can’t put my finger on it but I have a vague sense of reassurance which is somehow absent when people tell me to trust the Lord and surrender my will to Him for He has great plans. And other than the concept of Agape to the world, I’m quite familiar with the concepts and ideas that were mentioned by you in your posts. I guess that’s a good thing?

Pertaining to the table of food analogy, should we just eat what we have been given? I am thankful for all these other food that I have been given, but the table is lacking for one form of food that I really desire and need. It’s like I lack simple carbohydrates on this table, there are food full of protein and other vitamins, fiber and minerals but there are no pastas, rice, bread, etc. Without these simple carbs I can’t have sense of satiation(pardon my weird analogy, but I went on a low carb diet in the past and I know the feeling of constant hunger despite having everything else to eat). Maybe God deprived this from the table because I needed a fat(sin) loss? I mean, how do we deal with that? Do we just make do with the lack? Or is there some other things we can do besides already having a prayerful life?

I will say that one does not have to be “perfectly contrite” in order to be released from mortal sin. How many of us are ever truly and “perfectly” contrite over every sin?
The path to holiness is a struggle and we don’t always get things exactly right.
What is important is that we keep trying…and prayer is a great way to help ourselves along that path.

I may have understood it inaccurately it so please correct me if I’m wrong in this. I believe it is in the teachings of the Church that imperfect contrition, with absolution granted through the sacrament of reconciliation frees us from mortal sin and returns our sanctifying Grace. The only other exception is unless that individual has perfect contrition(which doesn’t come easy as you have implied) before he/she is able to receive the Eucharist. So doesn’t that mean that a Catholic who is in mortal sin and refuse to be reconciled with God due to self-justifying reasons that I have stated in an earlier post a mortal sinner? And hence my question of how should I reconcile the fact that this individual who is supposedly not in the state of grace with God answering his prayers? And this this was a major blessing in his circumstance. This is a close friend of mine and I do not for even a moment intend that the blessings be taken away from him nor his prayers not answered in the first place, but I’m asking how? How does it work?

Actually what I said was that we are to reflect Agape to the world not reflect on Agape.
However reflecting on Agape should certainly lead us to reflecting Agape to the world.

Agape is the Greek word for a type of deep, unselfish, brotherly love. In it’s perfect state it is indeed God’s perfect Love for us.
But look at the passages that I mentioned and in the original Greek, you will find that Agape is the word used. Read these passages and insert “agape” for “love”.
Let’s just look at Mt 22:36-40:
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
The Greek uses “agape” for “love” in this. So we are to “agape God” and "agape neighbor as ourselves. Jesus tells us that all of the law and all of the prophets are based on these two commands and these are centered around agape.

This is very interesting, is there some place where there is literature on this? It’s still kind of a blur to me but I’m interested to find out more about Agape to the world, how does it work, how do we transcend the other loves to Agape to the world. If a person is unrelated to you, there is no friendship nor sexual attraction, how do we agape?

to be cont…

 

[Joybearer]

cont…

Yes - it’s a great book - - - I need to get it out and read it again. Some big changes in my life right now…

Indeed it is! I think after the Bible and CCC, this should be the next in line for Catholics on their shelves. Glad to read that God is doing massive work in your life

I wonder if you’ve ever felt this way James, upon reading this book or any literature on holiness for that matter. There is a fear in the back of my head. What if God asks too much of me? The story of Job always comes up to my mind. That kind of misery I cannot take, I can’t even be one percent of the saints who are souls for redemptive suffering of the world. The saints go through so much that without that God they would probably have given up long before. It’s unfounded because God supposedly doesn’t give us what we cannot bear. And I would have to put down the book due to this crippling fear. Now I’m still stuck at chapter 11 of that book, ‘growing in love’. I fear that when I grow in holiness, terrible things will happen. I had uncanny experiences that upon praying the litany of humility or prayer of St Francis of Assisi, small doses of misfortunes were given to me and I just had to stop and return to praying for the good things. I’m a spiritual toddler at best and have troubles trying to become a soldier of God. Any practical ideas to deal with that? Even St Teresa says to Christ that He has so little friends because of how He treats them.

I think that our evangelical brothers have some good practices and outlooks. “Prosperity Gospel” is not one of them, but certainly joy and an expectant trust are good things.
I’ve known of a number of protestant evangelicals who are just fine so long as things are going their way, but when things go wrong, their theology has no way to handle it.
The “Prosperity gospel” types have no room in their theology for suffering…and this can lead to a catastrophic loss of faith.

Ask them to join an RCIA process, we teach them to deal with the facts! , oh and suffering, redemptive suffering, and opening their eyes to see how sinful they really are, and that God doesn’t pour out massive prosperity upon commanding it in the name of Jesus nor does he fixes pain like a plumber fixing a pipe, but just stays with them and accompanies them through their pains.

Sometimes, I think being a Catholic, though we know the truth, it’s kind of gloomy in secular standards, perhaps that’s why the youths are leaving us to join them. Sigh Sorry, just ranting

I love this discussion James, thanks for your patience and (name removed by moderator)ut once again.

 

[JRKH]

James, I think that in discussion with you, it has somehow given me a slight paradigm shift. I can feel it but can’t put my finger on it but I have a vague sense of reassurance which is somehow absent when people tell me to trust the Lord and surrender my will to Him for He has great plans. And other than the concept of Agape to the world, I’m quite familiar with the concepts and ideas that were mentioned by you in your posts. I guess that’s a good thing?

This is good to hear. A paradigm shift is really what we need in our thinking (I’m still working at it too). In my view this entails a shift from thinking in terms of this world (finite) to the next world (infinite).

Pertaining to the table of food analogy, should we just eat what we have been given? I am thankful for all these other food that I have been given, but the table is lacking for one form of food that I really desire and need. It’s like I lack simple carbohydrates on this table, there are food full of protein and other vitamins, fiber and minerals but there are no pastas, rice, bread, etc. Without these simple carbs I can’t have sense of satiation(pardon my weird analogy, but I went on a low carb diet in the past and I know the feeling of constant hunger despite having everything else to eat). Maybe God deprived this from the table because I needed a fat(sin) loss? I mean, how do we deal with that? Do we just make do with the lack? Or is there some other things we can do besides already having a prayerful life?

Just two quick points. First, I’ve learned that we do need to be accepting of the food (graces) that God provides us even if it is not precisely what we feel we really need. By so doing we really allow ourselves to be open to His filling that need when the time is right.
Second - If you have specific issues that are deeply troubling you it is often a good idea to seek out a confessor or spiritual director to help you with them.

I may have understood it inaccurately it so please correct me if I’m wrong in this. I believe it is in the teachings of the Church that imperfect contrition, with absolution granted through the sacrament of reconciliation frees us from mortal sin and returns our sanctifying Grace.

This is quite correct.

The only other exception is unless that individual has perfect contrition(which doesn’t come easy as you have implied) before he/she is able to receive the Eucharist. So doesn’t that mean that a Catholic who is in mortal sin and refuse to be reconciled with God due to self-justifying reasons that I have stated in an earlier post a mortal sinner?

This becomes quite involved - but basically yes - where it gets tricky is determining if one truly meets the criteria for mortal sin.

And hence my question of how should I reconcile the fact that this individual who is supposedly not in the state of grace with God answering his prayers? And this this was a major blessing in his circumstance. This is a close friend of mine and I do not for even a moment intend that the blessings be taken away from him nor his prayers not answered in the first place, but I’m asking how? How does it work?

We cannot know - for we cannot know the heart of another or whether this person is honest and sincere in their “self justification” - in which case they would not have met the conditions for mortal sin.
Likewise, as I pointed out earlier, the devil can make promises (and we presume deliver on them) of worldly advantages - so one can legitimately wonder if this supposed “blessing” is actually a blessing at all - or is it really just a snare of the devil?

This is very interesting, is there some place where there is literature on this? It’s still kind of a blur to me but I’m interested to find out more about Agape to the world, how does it work, how do we transcend the other loves to Agape to the world. If a person is unrelated to you, there is no friendship nor sexual attraction, how do we agape?

Excuse me for being blunt but - how much literature one needs to to explain “Love your neighbor as yourself”? Is it really that difficult to understand?
This is something you really need to take to God in prayer. He will show you - in many small ways - how to show agape to others.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Indeed it is! I think after the Bible and CCC, this should be the next in line for Catholics on their shelves. Glad to read that God is doing massive work in your life

I wonder if you’ve ever felt this way James, upon reading this book or any literature on holiness for that matter. There is a fear in the back of my head. What if God asks too much of me? The story of Job always comes up to my mind. That kind of misery I cannot take, I can’t even be one percent of the saints who are souls for redemptive suffering of the world. The saints go through so much that without that God they would probably have given up long before. It’s unfounded because God supposedly doesn’t give us what we cannot bear. And I would have to put down the book due to this crippling fear. Now I’m still stuck at chapter 11 of that book, ‘growing in love’. I fear that when I grow in holiness, terrible things will happen. I had uncanny experiences that upon praying the litany of humility or prayer of St Francis of Assisi, small doses of misfortunes were given to me and I just had to stop and return to praying for the good things. I’m a spiritual toddler at best and have troubles trying to become a soldier of God. Any practical ideas to deal with that? Even St Teresa says to Christ that He has so little friends because of how He treats them.

Indeed I have felt this way and as one spiritual toddler to another, I can only suggest that you be patient with yourself and with our Lord. Take your time reading the book, but do keep moving forward on it - a little at a time.

As for the saints called to suffer…not all saints are called to that kind of suffering. Certainly we all do suffer and will suffer in our life…indeed you have expressed that you are suffering even now and bearing up under it - though it be difficult. Persevere in the small things and all will be well.

I love this discussion James, thanks for your patience and (name removed by moderator)ut once again.

You are welcome - don’t know if I can be much more help…Just remember that our faith, for all it’s apparent complexity is really quite simple and built upon Love.

Peace
James

 

[Joybearer]

Sometimes God takes quite a long time to answer our prayers. St Monica prayed for her son St. Augustine for years before he changed his ways. He really went through a wild and sinful life style long before he changed.

There are a few things that I’'ve prayed for over a decade. It may not even happen in my lifetime, but I know God will answer me because I believe He will just as he answered St Monica’s prayers.

I guess I have been one of these lucky ones, because just about everything important that I have ever prayed for has been answered. NOT always in the manner that I wanted, but many times in ways far better than how I originally wanted.

I don’t pray to win the lottery, because I know it would probably change me. I don’t pray for fame or fortune, because that means nothing to me. A lot of what I pray for is the strength to make it through difficult times, the faith and courage to do what God wants me to do, and for faith for my family and friends.

Sometimes, God may not directly give you what you want, but gives you the will power or ability to obtain what you want or need. You may want to become self sufficient or moderately wealthy, but are initially poor and struggling. So God gives you you the intelligence and determination to go to school and get a decent job. With a little bit of financial wisdom and long years of saving and some hard work, you eventually will attain what you want. You may not hit the lottery, but you can retire and live comfortably.

Along the way you learn some valuable life lessons, that you would not have gotten, had God simply given you a winning lottery ticket.

Thanks for the reply Wcknight

I agree with you, God takes His time to answer our prayers, and changes us so that we can achieve what we ask for with strength and will given by Him. So after all it seems like as I have mentioned earlier, it’s cyclical, we ask God for something, He lets us do it ourselves, prayer doesn’t do more, doesn’t do less. Prayer changes us instead of changing God. So my question was probably wrong from the start? Prayer isn’t efficacious when we are in a certain state or such, but prayer will lead us into a spiritual state where we will ask for the right things, and the things will be granted to us because in the very beginning it’s God’s will. Do we have consensus on that?

I feel trapped by this argument, claustrophobic, it’s like no matter what we do, God wants what God wants, which of course is perfection and goodness, since no one escapes from His metaphysical influence, it’s like my question has reduced to a worthless black spots on a white background. This is nerve wrecking for me, it’s like when Moses asks who God is on mount Sinai and He replies, “I am who I am”. According to Fr Barron’s interpretation, it’s as though Moses had asked a stupid question. That Moses has no power over God to even ask for His name. This is very very vexing :banghead:

Just because some protestants get rich does not mean they will fall, nor does it mean God approves of their faulty faith… There are a lot of rich Catholics as well as many other rich folks in other faiths.

Wealth is not a measure of God’s approval or disapproval. IF it were, then the Saudis and other oil rich folks would be God’s favorites. AS Jesus says, rich folks have a harder road to travel. Wealth has its own set of responsibilities, not the least of which is to help the poor and support the Church in proportion to their wealth.

Keeping in mind that these protestants are close acquaintances of mine. I know quite a few things about them. Firstly, I can be certain to a large extend they were indeed devoted to their own beliefs when they asked for favors. And secondly, they did not employ unorthodox/sinful methods in obtaining the objects of desire. Things literally fell on their laps(well, almost literally). In comparison to the rich Saudis, bankers and other rich folks, I would not be so fast to say that their practices have been free of blood tainted methods.

Wouldn’t in this case be safe to say that in these cases, the wealth has been Divine Providence? It seems to me that it’s not just merely that God didn’t deprive them of wealth in His will, but it was granted to them.

I agree that the wealthy probably has more to make up for than the not so well off. The responsibilities in reaching out to the poor and such. And these are the blessings that God has given to them so that they might do what is necessary, as with your example of God giving a person will and ability to make his life better. So wouldn’t that be an approval as well? Just that these 2 types of people are blessed in different ways, or rather, one more than the other since the rich has will and ability as well.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[Joybearer]

This is good to hear. A paradigm shift is really what we need in our thinking (I’m still working at it too). In my view this entails a shift from thinking in terms of this world (finite) to the next world (infinite).

Just two quick points. First, I’ve learned that we do need to be accepting of the food (graces) that God provides us even if it is not precisely what we feel we really need. By so doing we really allow ourselves to be open to His filling that need when the time is right.
Second - If you have specific issues that are deeply troubling you it is often a good idea to seek out a confessor or spiritual director to help you with them.

This is quite correct.

This becomes quite involved - but basically yes - where it gets tricky is determining if one truly meets the criteria for mortal sin.

We cannot know - for we cannot know the heart of another or whether this person is honest and sincere in their “self justification” - in which case they would not have met the conditions for mortal sin.
Likewise, as I pointed out earlier, the devil can make promises (and we presume deliver on them) of worldly advantages - so one can legitimately wonder if this supposed “blessing” is actually a blessing at all - or is it really just a snare of the devil?

Excuse me for being blunt but - how much literature one needs to to explain “Love your neighbor as yourself”? Is it really that difficult to understand?
This is something you really need to take to God in prayer. He will show you - in many small ways - how to show agape to others.

Peace
James

It seems that in this we cannot be sure of anything, so after all we shouldn’t compare. Is faith and manifestations really that immeasurable?

Not to be rigid but I think technicality will help clarify things. Say a person who has committed a mortal sin, one that satisfies the 3 conditions of the sin being mortal. Maybe pre-marital sex? Despite knowing the teachings of the church on purity and chastity, it’s grave enough and was done deliberately. So this man has committed a mortal sin and has lost his sanctifying grace. So am I not correct to say that this man is not in the state of grace? And so, wouldn’t this man’s prayer be less efficacious?

The said blessing isn’t so much of a wealth, but an opportunity to better his life. It’s something that as far as my knowledge goes, cannot be used for evil(and so is my prayer intention).

I apologize if I misrepresented myself on asking about Agape to the world. I was not asking what it was, as is with the book, the fulfillment of all desire, we can just as easily quote a person St Augustine and says that we do not find rest until our hearts rest in the Lord. But the bringing of person to those ends need more than just these words, to understand the purgative, illuminative and unitive states which we can go through and such, and I would think this needs certain information or instruction. It may be common sense to you, but I can’t really see myself loving an “hi-bye” friend much less a stranger or the world.

You are welcome - don’t know if I can be much more help…Just remember that our faith, for all it’s apparent complexity is really quite simple and built upon Love.

You have been a ton of help, I will try to prayerfully contemplate all that you have said. Thank you. :hug3:

 

[JRKH]

It seems that in this we cannot be sure of anything, so after all we shouldn’t compare. Is faith and manifestations really that immeasurable?

Yes - it is difficult. I just think that we need to avoid putting too much stock in visible manifestations as being indicative of God’s blessings. That is rather an OT way of looking at things.

Not to be rigid but I think technicality will help clarify things. Say a person who has committed a mortal sin, one that satisfies the 3 conditions of the sin being mortal. Maybe pre-marital sex? Despite knowing the teachings of the church on purity and chastity, it’s grave enough and was done deliberately. So this man has committed a mortal sin and has lost his sanctifying grace. So am I not correct to say that this man is not in the state of grace? And so, wouldn’t this man’s prayer be less efficacious?

Yes I think it fair to say that his prayer would be less efficacious. However, “less efficacious” should not be equated to being not efficacious at all.

There is a teaching within the Church that we must receive grace even before we are able to turn to God…It is by God’s grace and not our own effort that we turn away from sin.
Since this is so, we cannot say that the prayers of a person, even a mortal sinner, are entirely without effect.
The effect may be stunted…but that would be because of the barriers erected by the sinner.
Yet - even we who embrace Christ and the Church struggle to fully comprehend, to repent and to form our live in Him. So - if we are not perfect - if we struggle with repentance and other issues, is not the efficacy of our prayers also stunted to some degree or other?

In my case I struggle with impatience and anger issues. In your case (and I may be wrong) it seems you struggle with envy - - I’m sure we both struggle with issues of pride (most everyone does). All of these - anger, pride, envy - are aspects of the “seven deadly sins”. Sins that, very often, we are guilty of trying to “justify ourselves” in.

Yet - it is through our imperfect prayers, from a position of imperfection that we hope to merit additional graces from God. For that reason, I am hesitant to say that the prayers of a “mortal sinner” are not efficacious at all.

The said blessing isn’t so much of a wealth, but an opportunity to better his life. It’s something that as far as my knowledge goes, cannot be used for evil(and so is my prayer intention).

Understood. Yet even these kinds of things can be, or become, snares. Best to just keep praying on such matters and seeking that paradigm shift that will allow one to better understand.

I apologize if I misrepresented myself on asking about Agape to the world. I was not asking what it was, as is with the book, the fulfillment of all desire, we can just as easily quote a person St Augustine and says that we do not find rest until our hearts rest in the Lord. But the bringing of person to those ends need more than just these words, to understand the purgative, illuminative and unitive states which we can go through and such, and I would think this needs certain information or instruction. It may be common sense to you, but I can’t really see myself loving an “hi-bye” friend much less a stranger or the world.

OK…
If you do a kindness to another, you are loving them. If you hold the door for someone you are loving them. If you smile at a clerk in a store, you are loving them. If you hold your tongue when someone insults you, you are loving them.
Agape does not have to be large gestures, nor does it need to be only with people you know well.
Read Mt 25:31-46 and ponder the words “you did it to me”. Everything we do to others we do to Christ.

As to the stages in the book…You and I are both still toddlers trying to find our way through the purgative stage. Let’s not become bogged down by looking too far ahead.
I don’t know about you, but I think I have enough to keep me busy right now…

You have been a ton of help, I will try to prayerfully contemplate all that you have said. Thank you. :hug3:

You are welcome.

Peace
James

 

[wcknight]

It’s no secret that God wants us to be happy, but sometimes, we really have no idea what will make us happy. We may be self deluded into thinking that instant success or sudden wealth would make us happy, but does it really ?

Part of the ‘fun’ or satisfaction is working hard to get there. You see all these rich kids who get it all passed down to them, and what do they do, they go out and make themselves miserable, partying and taking drugs. Joy and happiness are the furtherest thing from their minds.

As far as God’s name goes, I think it is perfect in its simplicity. God is basically saying “I exist” meaning that God is real. We do not need to know anything more than that. It may sound like double talk or being vague, but it is a summary of absolute truth.

IF God were to try to explain to us all that He is, our heads would explode. So He gave us His name, that is as simple as possible, to let us know everything that we need to know about Him. He exists. That is the one simple truth that everyone needs to know.

 

[clem456]

It’s no secret that God wants us to be happy, but sometimes, we really have no idea what will make us happy. We may be self deluded into thinking that instant success or sudden wealth would make us happy, but does it really ?

Part of the ‘fun’ or satisfaction is working hard to get there. You see all these rich kids who get it all passed down to them, and what do they do, they go out and make themselves miserable, partying and taking drugs. Joy and happiness are the furtherest thing from their minds.

As far as God’s name goes, I think it is perfect in its simplicity. God is basically saying “I exist” meaning that God is real. We do not need to know anything more than that. It may sound like double talk or being vague, but it is a summary of absolute truth.

IF God were to try to explain to us all that He is, our heads would explode. So He gave us His name, that is as simple as possible, to let us know everything that we need to know about Him. He exists. That is the one simple truth that everyone needs to know.

Good stuff.
We like to measure things by effectiveness and results. God is beyond measure. Like you say our heads would explode if God showed us the measure of his goodness. His “I am” is not an invitation to quantify him and understand him, but an invitation to recognize him as God, the source of existence, and invite us in to relationship with him. The “answers” we receive in this relationship are mysterious.

A line from “O Sacred Head Surrounded” came to mind here. Jesus is the fullness of God’s revelation, the answer to all our prayers.

Jesus, all grace supplying,
O turn thy face on me.

Now that is a prayer. Even for a hardened sinner, the gaze of Jesus is enough and everything, the only answer we need.

 

[Joybearer]

Thanks for all your replies! Appreciate them truly.

Wcknight, hopefully this doesn’t offend but I think it’s a trite idea that the journey/process is always the better than the destination/goal. I understand that there have even been secular studies by social scientists on the study of happiness which may or may not complement your beliefs or one that is held by most Catholics. One pretty well-known experiment compares the happiness(subjective) between lottery winners and paraplegics after a same given period after the incident results that they will return to the same state. I have also observed that you mainly take wealth in your examples as I have and would like to clarify that in my case I use material wealth only because it is the most observable and measurable indicator of blessings or as what James suggested, the lack of it.

Since we are seldom given a sudden infusion of massive blessings(and in my case, never), we can’t really say that this and that doesn’t make us happy. I have seen people who had sudden positive leaps in their careers and they’re happy, even up till now, not solely due to the leaps, but the things that they have done because of that promotion, and more importantly, the self-confidence and self-esteem which unfortunately for many people are undeniably tied to worldly achievements. Things are rarely as simple as they seem.

I’m do not agree that the rich kids are always miserable, that’s a faulty stereotype, I’m acquainted with some of such “kids” they are as happy or as miserable as “kids” from middle income families. I do however, know of one who throws his life away to drugs, sex and even sent a mother and two children in a car into coma driving high in his lamborghini. That’s only one of them. They have the resources to throw their lives away, but that doesn’t mean that it is a absolute definite that they will do it as what you seem to have implied.

God doesn’t have to explain everything to us. It’ll probably be tougher than explaining the contents of the catechism to your pet goldfish. But in the same way that He has given us the sciences, the laws of physics, they are established and constant, so we can observe and test and obtain feedback. Before anyone tells me that God is a free-agent and lacks predictability, I’m referring to His ways, not His mind, instructions that are clearer.

So just a hypothetical answer which may not be true at all in regards to my question of efficacious prayer. Say being in the state of grace, participate in sacraments, avoid venial sins, Agape for the world, will provide for the most efficacious prayers whereas the lack of these will reduce in the degree of efficacy of prayers by releasing each of these act. Committing of mortal sins being the bottom line in the efficacy of prayers.

Jesus, all grace supplying,
O turn thy face on me.

Listening to the hymn right now!

Thanks for the patience with me and all the (name removed by moderator)uts everyone, if you find me hardheaded it’s just because I want to learn more, it’s difficult for me to accept, resign and “Rest in the Lord with all my heart”. Hope you guys can understand my doubts.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for the patience with me and all the (name removed by moderator)uts everyone, if you find me hardheaded it’s just because I want to learn more, it’s difficult for me to accept, resign and “Rest in the Lord with all my heart”. Hope you guys can understand my doubts.

No problem.
I don’t think that we find you to be hardheaded…certainly no more than we can be (well as I can be anyway…).
While I can only truly speak for myself, I hope that you will recognize that these are things that we have (and do) struggle with too.
We are all in this together.

Peace
James

 

[wcknight]

I don’t think it’s trite and its true that some folks turn out okay if they suddenly get a big boost in life. But you do see a lot of rich folks who neglect their responsibilities or who think they are better than everyone else.

Poor parenting occurs in all income levels but if you tend to be very wealthy,the kids end up spoiled or feeling entitled. It’s much easier for poor kids to see that their parents have to work hard for what they have and they can more easily realize that their parents sacrifice to make their lives easier or even livable.

God gives some folks a harder route to follow, I’ve seen a lot of folks either incompetent or just lucky rise up with promotions too. Some may be in serious sin or not, I don’t think God micro manages whether or not we get promotions or win lotteries. I think God allows chance or random events to occur most times and steps in on some occasions. When He chooses to answer someone prayer is when folks have great faith. Extremely holy folks like saints or prophets command His attention, because as Jesus says faith can move mountains. Very few folks have the faith necessary to perform miracles on a regular basis and rarely do they do so for themselves.