Egypt: top Muslim cleric says all Christians 'Infidels'.

[Sam_777]

“A video of Egypt’s grand mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa (or Gom’a), which began circulating weeks before the massacre, helps elucidate. While holding that Muslims may coexist with Christians (who, as dhimmis, have rights), Gomaa categorized Christians as kuffar — “infidels” — a word that connotes “enemies,” “evil-doers,” and every bad thing to Muslim ears.” Link. :dts:

While Christians consider Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC# 841) …

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

“A video of Egypt’s grand mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa (or Gom’a), which began circulating weeks before the massacre, helps elucidate. While holding that Muslims may coexist with Christians (who, as dhimmis, have rights), Gomaa categorized Christians as kuffar — “infidels” — a word that connotes “enemies,” “evil-doers,” and every bad thing to Muslim ears.” Link. :dts:

While Christians consider Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC# 841) …

Let’s keep Muslims in the Plan of Salvation but, in case, a gun at the side will do no harm. Unfortunately, this story just confirms what 1400 years of Muslim Presence in the world taught us: the conversion by the sword.

The list of muslims wars in the world is unbearable: Chechenya, Middle East, Indonesia (Aceh), Sri Lanks (put down), Pakistan, Afganistan, Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria , Sudan.

Our Pope, who has got no markegint skill, escaped with the sentecne that and old Midieval Prince told that Islam did not bring anything new to the world but the sword.

Big Outcry, Manifestations, The Pope was sorry for the situation but … the point is that he did not rectact one word of what he said.

For…He knows too much …

 

[meedo]

“A video of Egypt’s grand mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa (or Gom’a), which began circulating weeks before the massacre, helps elucidate. While holding that Muslims may coexist with Christians (who, as dhimmis, have rights), Gomaa categorized Christians as kuffar — “infidels” — a word that connotes “enemies,” “evil-doers,” and every bad thing to Muslim ears.” Link. :dts:

While Christians consider Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC# 841) …

The word Kuffar means, unbelievers. For Christians we are Kuffar and we are the same to Jews. It is not an insult.

If this word means something else to some Muslims its their issue. I have Kuffar best friends.

 

[MontChevalier]

This sickens me. We have to make the best of what we can for the Coptics in Egypt. If I had more power, they’d be living my land safely; completely unafraid of any Islamic attacks. It probably won’t change who and what they are, but at least they’re safe.

-MontChevalier

 

[Matthew_Holford]

The word Kuffar means, unbelievers. For Christians we are Kuffar and we are the same to Jews. It is not an insult.

If this word means something else to some Muslims its their issue. I have Kuffar best friends.

Kuffar would then mean infidel. Infidel means non-believer.

Why do some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should convert to Islam or die? Is there any basis for this in the Koran or Islamic theology?

 

[Sam_777]

Why do some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should convert to Islam or die? Is there any basis for this in the Koran or Islamic theology?

That is the principle of Islamic Jihad:

*(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

**(Quran 47:4):
“Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.”

*(Quran 9:5):
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

 

[elwill]

The word Kuffar means, unbelievers. For Christians we are Kuffar and we are the same to Jews. It is not an insult.

If this word means something else to some Muslims its their issue. I have Kuffar best friends.

that’s correct
actually , pagans in the era of mohammed (pbuh) called muslims kuffar , because they disbelieved in the idols and relegion of their ancestors

 

[elwill]

Kuffar would then mean infidel. Infidel means non-believer.

Why do some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should convert to Islam or die? Is there any basis for this in the Koran or Islamic theology?

no , there are no basis for this in the quran or islamic theology

 

[colmywaykurtz]

no , there are no basis for this in the quran or islamic theology

What about the Quran verses Sam777 quoted? Are these held in lower regard than other parts of the Quran by some of its believers?

 

[The_Wizard]

We need to send more Bibles to Egypt. I suggest a new improved with latest updates revision of Beecher’s Bible! (Google It)

 

[meedo]

Kuffar would then mean infidel. Infidel means non-believer.

Why do some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should convert to Islam or die? Is there any basis for this in the Koran or Islamic theology?

Well… it seems that the word Infedil has become an insult. So i wanted to say that In Islam , we simply mean by Kafir as an unbeliever. Being an unbeliever is not an insult. Mohammed himself was a kafir towards the pagan religion. We don’t use the word Infidel. We use the word kafir … meaning unbeliever and it is not an insult.It means simply a person who doesnt believe in the muslim faith.

The problem is not what we call each other. As i said , i have best friends who are Kafir… so ?

Islam doesn’t spread by force or by threat of death. However there is a hadith that says’’ Who have changed his faith should be put to death’’ .

Basically , you have the absolute freedom to reject Islam , once you are muslim, arrives many interpretations of the hadith above…

The most radical says that the hadith should be taken literally and whoever changes his faith from Islam to anything else should be executed. Other interpretations say that this is only the case of the change of faith includes treason for country or being an enemy of Muslims. Third view thinks that there is no problem with change of faith period and the hadith is related to its period .

I think that countries that are willing to apply the most radical interpretations are Saudi, Afghanistan.

Apart from that i don’t think other countries are willing to have the extreme interpretation as part of their law.

The above is my opinion any way .

 

[meedo]

That is the principle of Islamic Jihad:

(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

(Quran 47:4):
“Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.”

(Quran 9:5):
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

None of the above is taken in their proper context in regards to this discussion.

 

[meedo]

We need to send more Bibles to Egypt. I suggest a new improved with latest updates revision of Beecher’s Bible! (Google It)

There are more bibles in Egyptian homes than there are in french homes. Ever been to the Cairo book fair ? There are Jesus movies on display .

It is not what it is portrayed to be.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

There are more bibles in Egyptian homes than there are in french homes. Ever been to the Cairo book fair ? There are Jesus movies on display .

It is not what it is portrayed to be.

Would that include Western movies about Jesus—King Of Kings, Jesus Of Nazareth, The Greatest Story Ever Told, The Passion Of The Christ?

 

[meedo]

Would that include Western movies about Jesus—King Of Kings, Jesus Of Nazareth, The Greatest Story Ever Told, The Passion Of The Christ?

Not really sure about western movies. But you can get a lot of movies from the Holy book publishing house in Cairo center, close to Tahrir square. However i think they would appreciate Arabic movies because may be they don’t understand English.

besides. there is the Internet. Egyptian youths are on the Internet more than they are in the library.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

I think that describes youth worldwide.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

“A video of Egypt’s grand mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa (or Gom’a), which began circulating weeks before the massacre, helps elucidate. While holding that Muslims may coexist with Christians (who, as dhimmis, have rights), Gomaa categorized Christians as kuffar — “infidels” — a word that connotes “enemies,” “evil-doers,” and every bad thing to Muslim ears.” Link. :dts:

While Christians consider Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC# 841) …

Once again Sam_777, I do not know what you wish to achieve by this??? Once again you seem to say something about Islam when the same thing could be said about Christianity.
Kafir may well be an insult amongst some Saudi’s or Salafi’s, but the being a Papist is an insult among some Christian sects; the use of the term has no bearing on the religious/linguistic meaning. As you know it comes from KA FA RA which.means to cover or hide, so literally means one who has concealed truth. Also as you know in Sunni Islam (as Gomaa was speaking for) kuffar for the group (meaning the religion is outside Islam) does not mean all are each a kafir since disbelief is conditional on conscious rejection. So it’s a technical term referring to beliefs that do not qualify as Islam… we don’t claim to be anyway.
The CCC is recognised by Catholics only, some Christians have very odd beliefs - both positive and negative - toward Islam. However, the CCC is not validating Islam as a religion for we consider them disbelievers too. Some have said Islam is a Christian heresy, but as the Popes of the past said, they’ll (ie heretics) certainly burn in hell. We believe salvation comes through Christ only, his body being the Church. We use to say outside the Church no salvation, now we’ve redefined this slightly but it doesn’t validate other religions.
Please Sam_777 spend your time finding out about the beauty of the Church and just leave the negative posts. If we assume what you post is a fair representation of the story (which I don’t think it always is) then to show only negative stories is still unrepresentative, it’s like showing all the goals Man Utd conceded last season only, watching this would make you think they were a poor team, yet they won the league!!!
The Church is trying to facilitate better relation with our Muslim friends because even if the consider us their enemy (which they don’t) then we must love them all the same. Spread love my friend… And I remind myself first and foremost
God bless

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

“A video of Egypt’s grand mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa (or Gom’a), which began circulating weeks before the massacre, helps elucidate. While holding that Muslims may coexist with Christians (who, as dhimmis, have rights), Gomaa categorized Christians as kuffar — “infidels” — a word that connotes “enemies,” “evil-doers,” and every bad thing to Muslim ears.” Link. :dts:

In the hypothetical dialogue Gomaa provides what the Christian is suppose to say is not very accurate. Christian do worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Second Person of the Holy Trinity and we do have a theology explaining these matters

Gomaa then offered a hypothetical dialogue between Christians and Muslims to illustrate Islam’s proper position:

Christians: You have the wrong idea about us; we don’t worship the Christ.

Muslims: Okay, fine; we were under the wrong impression — but, by the way: “Infidels are those who declare God is the Christ, son of Mary.”

Christians: But these are philosophical matters that we are unable to explain.

Muslims: Okay, fine; God is one—but, by the way: “Infidels are those who declare God is the Christ, son of Mary.”

While Christians consider Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC# 841) …

(To my understanding) the Plan of Salvation is Jesus Christ. God the Father calls the whole world towards salvation through Him. God see all man kind equally and equally in need of Salvation (as gained for us by the sacrifice and death of His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.) Since muslims are part of the world, they as a person are also called by God the Father to believe Jesus Christ and that He is the Son of God. But because of free will God the Father only offers, He can not make us accept His plan of Salvation without us freely choosing.

Let’s keep Muslims in the Plan of Salvation but, in case, a gun at the side will do no harm. Unfortunately, this story just confirms what 1400 years of Muslim Presence in the world taught us: the conversion by the sword.

The list of muslims wars in the world is unbearable: Chechenya, Middle East, Indonesia (Aceh), Sri Lanks (put down), Pakistan, Afganistan, Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria , Sudan.

Our Pope, who has got no markegint skill, escaped with the sentecne that and old Midieval Prince told that Islam did not bring anything new to the world but the sword.

Big Outcry, Manifestations, The Pope was sorry for the situation but … the point is that he did not rectact one word of what he said.

For…He knows too much …

You mean the Regensburg lecture?

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was** new** and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”…

I can not entirely disagree with that statement and there is some truth found in what Manuel II says. In the first part if one considers religious acts like prayer, fasting and charity they been reveal by God and already practice by the ancient Hebrews (as found in the OT), so they are not a “new” religious ideas introduced by muhammed - even though in islam there is different approach to some of them.
So to Manuel II in his consideration of islam “what did muhammed brought that was new?” was he wrong for what he said? The time he lived in is no less tumultuous as it is today. And there is a sort of irony that some are proud of the victories achieved by those tactics but insulted if one brings up the manner they were incurred.

I also think Manuel II seems pretty reasonable in what he says in his next statement after that.

“God is not pleased by blood – and not acting reasonably is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…”

 

[Sam_777]

God see all man kind equally and equally in need of Salvation (as gained for us by the sacrifice and death of His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.)

But pagans will not be part of the salvation according to my understanding !

 

[TradionalWay]

Well before Vatican II the church used to say that about muslims… But now we are suppose to accept the world religions for peace