Egypt: top Muslim cleric says all Christians 'Infidels'.

[tskrobacz]

The word Kuffar means, unbelievers. For Christians we are Kuffar and we are the same to Jews. It is not an insult.

If this word means something else to some Muslims its their issue. I have Kuffar best friends.

There is no such thing as “unbelievers”…Human beings are born into a family and in a family they grow, eventually entering society through their activity. From birth, therefore, they are immersed in traditions which give them not only a language and a cultural formation but also a range of truths in which they believe almost instinctively. Yet personal growth and maturity imply that these same truths can be cast into doubt and evaluated through a process of critical enquiry. It may be that, after this time of transition, these truths are “recovered” as a result of the experience of life or by dint of further reasoning. Nonetheless, there are in the life of a human being many more truths which are simply believed than truths which are acquired by way of personal verification. Who, for instance, could assess critically the countless scientific findings upon which modern life is based? Who could personally examine the flow of information which comes day after day from all parts of the world and which is generally accepted as true? Who in the end could forge anew the paths of experience and thought which have yielded the treasures of human wisdom and religion? This means that the human being—the one who seeks the truth—is also the one who lives by belief.

In believing, we entrust ourselves to the knowledge acquired by other people. This suggests an important tension. On the one hand, the knowledge acquired through belief can seem an imperfect form of knowledge, to be perfected gradually through personal accumulation of evidence; on the other hand, belief is often humanly richer than mere evidence, because it involves an interpersonal relationship and brings into play not only a person’s capacity to know but also the deeper capacity to entrust oneself to others, to enter into a relationship with them which is intimate and enduring.

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[colmywaykurtz]

Well before Vatican II the church used to say that about muslims… But now we are suppose to accept the world religions for peace

That is not my understanding of what the Catechism says. It says that many other religions reflect a “ray of the truth,” and insofar as that truth is present, there is good in other faiths.
It does not say these other faiths are vehicles of salvation.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

But pagans will not be part of the salvation according to my understanding !

I’m not say paganism is a way to salvation. God loves all and see all, and it’s obvious not everyone loves God wholeheartedly by choices they make, still we can not judge people to hell to say they are automatically going because they are pagans. Even if God see someone on the wrong path, God still calls that person to the right path.

 

[bhshockeymom62]

None of the above is taken in their proper context in regards to this discussion.

Meedo, please explain their context then so we can understand.

 

[meedo]

Meedo, please explain their context then so we can understand.

The first verse mentions the option of Jizya. Which is a tax paid by non Muslims. It is obligated on able well bodied men who are able to work. Therefore it is not right to say that it is Islam or death.

The second & the third verses are related to the time of war Islam had with its armed enemies in Arabia.

If it was Islam or die… there would be zero Christians in the middle east long time ago.

 

[bhshockeymom62]

The first verse mentions the option of Jizya. Which is a tax paid by non Muslims. It is obligated on able well bodied men who are able to work. Therefore it is not right to say that it is Islam or death.

The second & the third verses are related to the time of war Islam had with its armed enemies in Arabia.

If it was Islam or die… there would be zero Christians in the middle east long time ago.

:

Reading 9:29 it does not say “option” it says UNTIL with willing submission, it says fight them UNTIL they pay the jizya with willing submission

I don’t believe your interpretation of 47:4 and 9:5 because the verses before and after have nothing to do with a war in Arabia.(again you better go tell the muslims in the middle east that it does not pertain to today because the Palestinians what to wipe the Israel off the earth and also the guys that flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon

2:190-191 states don’t commit agression but slay them wherever you find them

4:34 men are to beat woman

8:39 mulsims are to fight unbelievers until everyone worships only allah

The middle east used to be mainly Christians and look what has happened. What about the the churches being burned down and bombed? The pastor that is going to be killed because he left Islam. The muslims want to kill all the Jews and blow Israel off the planet.

 

[MontChevalier]

:

Reading 9:29 it does not say “option” it says UNTIL with willing submission, it says fight them UNTIL they pay the jizya with willing submission

I don’t believe your interpretation of 47:4 and 9:5 because the verses before and after have nothing to do with a war in Arabia.(again you better go tell the muslims in the middle east that it does not pertain to today because the Palestinians what to wipe the Israel off the earth and also the guys that flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon

2:190-191 states don’t commit agression but slay them wherever you find them

4:34 men are to beat woman

8:39 mulsims are to fight unbelievers until everyone worships only allah

The middle east used to be mainly Christians and look what has happened. What about the the churches being burned down and bombed? The pastor that is going to be killed because he left Islam. The muslims want to kill all the Jews and blow Israel off the planet.

And the huge number of Coptic exiles from Egypt by the Salafis.

-MontChevalier

 

[elwill]

:

Reading 9:29 it does not say “option” it says UNTIL with willing submission, it says fight them UNTIL they pay the jizya with willing submission

fight not equal to kill . it can means resist
whatever the first chalif “Abo bakr” faught muslims who reject to pay Zakat ( tax which payed by muslims ) , so no discrimination here

I don’t believe your interpretation of 47:4 and 9:5 because the verses before and after have nothing to do with a war in Arabia

then don’t blame muslims for your own understanding and your own interpretation which muslims themselfs reject

whatever if you have doubts about previous verses , then read those verses

60-8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

60-9 Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

 

[Sam_777]

:

Reading 9:29 it does not say “option” it says UNTIL with willing submission, it says fight them UNTIL they pay the jizya with willing submission

I don’t believe your interpretation of 47:4 and 9:5 because the verses before and after have nothing to do with a war in Arabia.(again you better go tell the muslims in the middle east that it does not pertain to today because the Palestinians what to wipe the Israel off the earth and also the guys that flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon

2:190-191 states don’t commit agression but slay them wherever you find them

4:34 men are to beat woman

8:39 mulsims are to fight unbelievers until everyone worships only allah

The middle east used to be mainly Christians and look what has happened. What about the the churches being burned down and bombed? The pastor that is going to be killed because he left Islam. The muslims want to kill all the Jews and blow Israel off the planet.

 

[TradionalWay]

That is not my understanding of what the Catechism says. It says that many other religions reflect a “ray of the truth,” and insofar as that truth is present, there is good in other faiths.
It does not say these other faiths are vehicles of salvation.

Exactly what I meant? U know there is a traditional teaching that states that there is NO salvation outside the catholic church…

 

[carn]

60-9 Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Since Bin Laden was considered to be a muslim and since the US with support of its allies and lasting and widespread consent from its and the allies people drove Bin Laden from his home and did this for what Bin Laden believed to be allahs commands for him, allah forbids today muslims to be respectful towards the US, its allies and a large part of their people.

The only ways to avoid this conclusion i see, are assuming the assaulting and killing someone in his home is not expulsion or driving from home or that Bin Laden was not a muslim or that killing someone acting upon what he thinks allahs wants him to do is not killing him because of his religion or that allah made an error when writing this verse.

The first looks crazy. The second runs contrary to what i perceive from media. The third is illogical, Bin Laden was hunted and killed because of his understanding of his religion, which is always the reason when people are killed because of their religion (no political actor gives a damn about those religious people who do not believe something detrimetal to the political actors plans or goals). And the last, well, muslims are not allowed to believe that.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Not really sure about western movies. But you can get a lot of movies from the Holy book publishing house in Cairo center, close to Tahrir square. However i think they would appreciate Arabic movies because may be they don’t understand English.

besides. there is the Internet. Egyptian youths are on the Internet more than they are in the library.

Bluntly told, the question is: in the prayers in the Mosques every Friday, isnt it called: “Down to the Christians! Down to the Jews!” Yes or Not?

Sincerely, I would like to know from you for you may enter a Christian Church but I was forbidden to enter many mosques. So I was told that this chant goes on on Saudi Arabia (??) (the person who wrote it wrote it in this Forum), but I wanted to know from you.

 

[meedo]

Bluntly told, the question is: in the prayers in the Mosques every Friday, isnt it called: “Down to the Christians! Down to the Jews!” Yes or Not?

Sincerely, I would like to know from you for you may enter a Christian Church but I was forbidden to enter many mosques. So I was told that this chant goes on on Saudi Arabia (??) (the person who wrote it wrote it in this Forum), but I wanted to know from you.

Sermons in mosques are not primarily concerned with Christianity or Judaism. If they mention Christianity , they would criticize it’s dogma, Jesus is God , trinity etc. If there was a reference to Judaism , it would be mainly related to the Israeli occupation. But there is no hate message against my christian neighbor for example.

However i do meet people who are too simple minded. And they live in their own bubble and think that every body else is plotting against them. Such people exist in all cultures and faiths.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

There are more bibles in Egyptian homes than there are in french homes. Ever been to the Cairo book fair ? There are Jesus movies on display .

It is not what it is portrayed to be.

“Kill the infidel…kill them whenever you find them.”

Remind you of anything, Meedo? Like your own Quran?

Or am I simply a “misunderstander” of the whole thing?

 

[meedo]

“Kill the infidel…kill them whenever you find them.”

Remind you of anything, Meedo? Like your own Quran?

Or am I simply a “misunderstander” of the whole thing?

Would there be any Christians left in the middle east if that is what the Quran really meant for Muslims ?

Think about it …

 

[Leegal]

Kuffar would then mean infidel. Infidel means non-believer.

Why do some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should convert to Islam or die? Is there any basis for this in the Koran or Islamic theology?

Would an answer even matter if it can or cannot be found in the Koran?

It seems to be a religion based upon self-interpretation now.

I know this much, Mohammed started writing women’s inheritance rights and peace and charity into the Koran, until he was chased out of Mecca. His writings after that become more violent and strident, hence the ability to pick and choose from the Koran.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Would there be any Christians left in the middle east if that is what the Quran really meant for Muslims ?

Think about it …

Still you can not deny the plight of the Christian in many islamic countries.

When one does think about it, it is more than Christians who are being persecuted in countries where islam is the dominate religion. Baha’is, Ahamdis, Sufis, & Yazidis are as well persecuted. In the defense of religious freedom (the freedom to practice ones religion) the Vatican spoke out against the persecution of the Baha’i. (I’m not endorsing any of these religions mentioned, or trying to say one form of religion is better than the other.)

 

[carn]

However i do meet people who are too simple minded. And they live in their own bubble and think that every body else is plotting against them. Such people exist in all cultures and faiths.

But most faiths do not have a “commandment” requiring the individual to act, if he is convinced that some forces are plotting against his religion. As far as i know there is an individual mandate in Islam to assist in defensive jihad. So if one of those simple minded people concludes that X is trying to destroy Islam he would be required to fight against X.

In christianity and mpst other religions, there is no such effect that due to an individual assesment one is required to participate in or assist wars. In christianity only when the duly appointed ruler calls to arms, there arises some duty and even that comes with a lot of caveats.(As far as i know there has so far been no just war in history, so its questionable if there ever was a war in which a christian must have participated.)

 

[meedo]

Still you can not deny the plight of the Christian in many islamic countries.

When one does think about it, it is more than Christians who are being persecuted in countries where islam is the dominate religion. Baha’is, Ahamdis, Sufis, & Yazidis are as well persecuted. In the defense of religious freedom (the freedom to practice ones religion) the Vatican spoke out against the persecution of the Baha’i. (I’m not endorsing any of these religions mentioned, or trying to say one form of religion is better than the other.)

All religions are persecuted in countries where there is no democracy. Muslims were killed in Iraq and Egypt more than Christians were killed. Societies need democracy to develop. The Islamic world is for the most part ruled by secular dictatorships that pressed down its Muslim population eve more than they pressed down Christians.

In the US , a democracy, just untill 50 years ago… it had ‘‘laws’’ against black people. And

the US was then the strongest richest democratic country country in the world ( and still is ) . It took sometime before people got educated and open minded. Black people were killed and attacked… but it didn’t mean that the US as a nation is against Black people. It is just that there is a section of society that hasn’t matured.

Now Egypt has never been a democracy, 40% cant even read or write. Muslims were oppressed by a secular regime that feared them much more than they feared any christian. The natural result is that there will be friction between simple minded red necks on both sides , Muslims and christian. The more educated the people are the less these things happen. And when these things happen…

The thing that i wanna say is that there is no solution other than solving these problems within the state itself. And the solution is not eleminating Islam , the solution is education and culture.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

All religions are persecuted in countries where there is no democracy.

Would democracy in an Islamic country include the freedom for Muslims to convert to another religious faith without fearing for their lives or occupations?