Either Serve Or Burn In Hell

[CatsAndDogs]

So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan? Why does refusing to serve God automatically mean a person is evil and deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Does the phrase: Non Serviam! …come to mind?

 

[Antithesis]

We are born a slave race and we can never know freedom. Our highest state is to be complete slave to the will of God. We are loved not because we are ourselves but because God sees the only things He loves and can love, Himself.

I too wish I could love my family and spent an eternity with those I love and even those I hate. But in the end I will be desroyed. God will either curse me so I cant love my family and my friends.
My will twisted inward so I can only see myself never being able to reach out. Or He will bless me and I become little more that a mirror, no will of my own, no love or concern for the others in my life. All I will do is reflect the will of the Father in his endless hymn of self gratifing praise. Again no freedom to reach out. I can not look to my neighbor I can only look towards God and at the center the I that makes me, me is lost to oblivion.

The future does indeed look bleak, but that is my place as a creation born to suffer or born to an oblivion. I hope for oblivion but accept my suffering if He wills it due to imperfections that distort his reflection.

 

[ateista]

That life is only as ‘good’ as some quantitative and objectifiable and ephemeral HUMAN measurements, and not intrinsically good in and of itself.

That is exactly what I say. It is our life, and therefore it is our right and prerogative to evaluate it.

You don’t live in constant pain and misery. You don’t go hungry to bed every night. You don’t suffer from debilitating illness. Guess, what, I don’t either. But I have compassion for those who do. I can understand that they do not want to live. That they seek death to get rid of their pain. You don’t have any of that. You - oh so bravely - are willing to “endure” their pain, and assert that their life is “intrinsically” good. Live their life, walk a mile in their shoes and then make your judgment. It is the height of hypocrisy to endure someone else’s misfortune.

This from a creature who cannot even live on his own without God, in any way, shape or form. . .and we are expected to believe that your subjective opinion on what is ‘good’ trumps that of the being who MADE you? I don’t think so.

That is merely your opinion, and your opinion does not count. You do not speak for God, you only speak for yourself.

You think that God made you, ok, whoopie, but you don’t want any part of Him.

Do I? Where did you get that one from? I am an atheist, who does not believe in any gods.

But the picture you believers paint of God is exactly what I am responding to. Your picture is not that of a loving and caring parent. Your picture is that of a sadistic, egotistical maniac, who creates lesser beings, just so he can send most of them into everlasting torture, and rewards a few who are willing to become his worshipping dogs, who never complain when he kicks them in the face and keep on blindly worshipping. And just like every tyrant in history, he wants to be loved and worshipped without doing anything that would deserve that love and worship.

No, sir. I do not believe in a God. But I believe that if there would be a God, and he were a nice, decent fellow, the world would be very different from what we see and experience today.

 

[lyrikal]

No, sir. I do not believe in a God. But I believe that if there would be a God, and he were a nice, decent fellow, the world would be very different from what we see and experience today.

Sigh

As usual, it is a personal issue.

 

[elvisman]

That is exactly what I say. It is our life, and therefore it is our right and prerogative to evaluate it.

You don’t live in constant pain and misery. You don’t go hungry to bed every night. You don’t suffer from debilitating illness. Guess, what, I don’t either. But I have compassion for those who do. I can understand that they do not want to live. That they seek death to get rid of their pain. You don’t have any of that. You - oh so bravely - are willing to “endure” their pain, and assert that their life is “intrinsically” good. Live their life, walk a mile in their shoes and then make your judgment. It is the height of hypocrisy to endure someone else’s misfortune.

That is merely your opinion, and your opinion does not count. You do not speak for God, you only speak for yourself.

Do I? Where did you get that one from? I am an atheist, who does not believe in any gods.

But the picture you believers paint of God is exactly what I am responding to. Your picture is not that of a loving and caring parent. Your picture is that of a sadistic, egotistical maniac, who creates lesser beings, just so he can send most of them into everlasting torture, and rewards a few who are willing to become his worshipping dogs, who never complain when he kicks them in the face and keep on blindly worshipping. And just like every tyrant in history, he wants to be loved and worshipped without doing anything that would deserve that love and worship.

No, sir. I do not believe in a God. But I believe that if there would be a God, and he were a nice, decent fellow, the world would be very different from what we see and experience today.

Actually - it’s NOT our life - it belongs to God and was purchased for us at a huge price.

Now - you can choose to believe this or not but I suspect that if you are posting in this thread, you have an open enough mind to have healthy dialogue about it.

The question about whether it is fair to be given the choice, “Either serve or burn In Hell” is a fair one to ask. I would answer like this:
The greatest thing that God could have done was to make such a contrast about reward and punishment. The choice is so obvious, you could call it a “no-brainer”. He could have made it much more complicated but in his infinite mercy, he knew that we wouldn’t have had the capacity to make a more complicated choice.

Patrick Henry had the same idea when he said, “Give me liberty or give me death.” All it takes is common sense - and faith.

That’s it. It’s that simple.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ah, Ateista. Luckily somebody let me know your agenda before you published your latest response.

If you were really interested in listening instead of just using this and other fora for your personal soapbox, I’d be glad to respond.

But it appears all you want to do is argue your own personal opinon as fact.

So you only want me as a somebody to attribute things to so you can ‘knock them over’.

I don’t play that sort of game, thank you anyway.

 

[Namesake]

So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan? Why does refusing to serve God automatically mean a person is evil and deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Maybe because this God is so egotistical that He demands absolute submission to Him. Otherwise you are toast. Not such a good guy. People have more worth than this God gives us. He only gives us worth if we are submissive to Him.

 

[yellowbicycle]

We are born a slave race and we can never know freedom. Our highest state is to be complete slave to the will of God. We are loved not because we are ourselves but because God sees the only things He loves and can love, Himself.

I too wish I could love my family and spent an eternity with those I love and even those I hate. But in the end I will be desroyed. God will either curse me so I cant love my family and my friends.
My will twisted inward so I can only see myself never being able to reach out. Or He will bless me and I become little more that a mirror, no will of my own, no love or concern for the others in my life. All I will do is reflect the will of the Father in his endless hymn of self gratifing praise. Again no freedom to reach out. I can not look to my neighbor I can only look towards God and at the center the I that makes me, me is lost to oblivion.

The future does indeed look bleak, but that is my place as a creation born to suffer or born to an oblivion. I hope for oblivion but accept my suffering if He wills it due to imperfections that distort his reflection.

Hmmmm…this got me thinking…
So, God created EVERYTHING, right? Earth, sun, moon, stars, EVERYTHING…and you’re saying that he created US, humans, to be his slaves? You’d think, with all the cool stuff He could make, He would have come up with something better.
I mean, we’re not terribly good at being slaves, now are we? As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure I’m in sin RIGHT NOW. As I type. Yup, I thought about it, and for certain, I am definitely sinning. And I LIKE God. I WANT to be his slave. And here I am, not slaving. So, see? Not very good slaves.
You’d have to wonder why he didn’t make something better to be his slaves? Labrador retrievers are nice…I’d have picked them.

I mean, I’m supposed to SING my praises to him.
You’ve never heard me sing.
I wouldn’t have picked me to sing to anybody (though you should hear me sing Trashy Women at karaoke. It’s bloody brilliant).
Yet, that’s what He wants from. Why do you think that would be?

And I thought I was SUPPOSED to look to my neighbor, even the gnarly-toothed creepy one. Isn’t that what Jesus taught us? Something about the least of my brothers? I think it’s FAN-freaking-TASTIC, that every time I help some stinky old homeless guy, I really helped God. Let me assure you, if I wanted praise from you, I would not ask for it through some stinky old homeless guy. Really.
God is certainly more generous than I am.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Maybe because this God is so egotistical that He demands absolute submission to Him. Otherwise you are toast. Not such a good guy. People have more worth than this God gives us. He only gives us worth if we are submissive to Him.

I think you are confused. You were given a free gift of life. You are here on earth and are free to live your life out and “do your own thing” and then die. What are you objecting to? Are you angry that you have been given a taste of life and you must die or are you angry because after you have spent your life you may be asked to account for how you spent it?

In either case what is the difference to you if you don’t believe in God or care what happens after death? If you are correct and there is no God - its over and done with and you are dead, buried and no one remembers you or cares that they ever knew you and you could care less since you don’t exist anymore.

But if you are wrong and there is a God do you really care if it turns out you are an immortal being and you get to live for ever? Would that make you angry that somone made you immortal? Or does it make you angry that someone made you immortal and did not consult with you how you would like Creation to be nor tell you personally that how you get to spend that immortality (with divine-human like powers in heaven or powerless in hell) all depends on how thankful you were to your Creator and how you helped your fellow man?

I guess I don’t get it. Don’t you consider a free life and a shot at unimaginable purpose and divine-human capabilities as an immortal divine-human being worth paying a very natural debt of gratitude to your Creator? Or do you object that God did not give each of us every bit of all our divine-human powers and happiness upfront before we proved ourselves worthy to receive and wield that kind of power?

I say to those who want to condemn God because they see some preexisting evil along with the good that is in this womb of Creation “has it ever occurred to you that God empowered you to help others who are less fortunate than you to deal with their afflictions and pain”? Has it ever occurred to you that is exactly why you were created - to be an instrument of God?

What is the more positive and reasonable thing to do? is it better to rage at God (who you think does not exist) for permitting good and evil to co-exist or to count your own blessings and help your fellow man like you demand that God do?

The Atheist position of condemning God for not doing things as you would have them be seems completely hypocritical to me if you yourself do not step in to lend a helping hand.

James

 

[Antithesis]

God did not create the universe for you, your pride reeks to the heavens, he created it for himself and no other. Also all creation (matter) is ephimeral it means nothing to him for it is but a blink to him.

Why are you suppose to love you neighbor and what are you suppose to love you neighbor for, because he is made in the image and likeness of God. aka God loves God That is the only reason. To love anyone for them including that which does not resemble God in his perfection is a sin. I love my family with their sins and all their imperfections, If I was perfect in the will of God I would hate ther imperfections and cause them to suffer endlessly for them until the repented.

God loves only the perfect part that resembles Him everything else disgusts him and brings his endless purifing rage about. Perfection is what we are called to anything less is damnation and if we reach that perfection we lose our humanity.

 

[Namesake]

I say to those who want to condemn God because they see some preexisting evil along with the good that is in this womb of Creation “has it ever occurred to you that God empowered you to help others who are less fortunate than you to deal with their afflictions and pain”? Has it ever occurred to you that is exactly why you were created - to be an instrument of God?

I cure human suffering everyday. That doesn’t mean I have to submit to a God who *demands that I submit to Him or I will burn in Hell eternally.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I cure human suffering everyday. That doesn’t mean I have to submit to a God who *demands that I submit to Him or I will burn in Hell eternally.

You “cure” others? You are probably the first person I have ever heard ever claim to be able to cure somone. Most doctors will admit to administering medicines and doing procedures but rely on the body’s own systems augmented with medicine to cure themselves.

Doctor heal thyself - you have a serious attitude.

James

 

[Namesake]

You “cure” others? You are probably the first person I have ever heard ever claim to be able to cure somone. Most doctors will admit to administering medicines and doing procedures but rely on the body’s own systems augmented with medicine to cure themselves.

Doctor heal thyself - you have a serious attitude.

James

Well, it would be pretty hard to believe that when I do a surgical procedure and the patient is freed from their affliction that I wasn’t the instrument of cure. I cut out the disease and then the patient heals from the wound I made. But I effected the cure from the disease.

 

[CentralFLJames]

God did not create the universe for you, your pride reeks to the heavens, he created it for himself and no other. Also all creation (matter) is ephimeral it means nothing to him for it is but a blink to him.

Why are you suppose to love you neighbor and what are you suppose to love you neighbor for, because he is made in the image and likeness of God. aka God loves God That is the only reason. To love anyone for them including that which does not resemble God in his perfection is a sin. I love my family with their sins and all their imperfections, If I was perfect in the will of God I would hate ther imperfections and cause them to suffer endlessly for them until the repented.

God loves only the perfect part that resembles Him everything else disgusts him and brings his endless purifing rage about. Perfection is what we are called to anything less is damnation and if we reach that perfection we lose our humanity.

Who are you talking to? If it was me I want to point out that you are extremely judgemental of others and the God you claim does not exist. I did not ever claim that God created the universe for me or you.

You are correct God created all of Creation for Himself and desires to share His divinity with us His created creatures. He desires to make us into divine-human beings that He can have a loving relationship with Him and also to bring glory to His son Jesus and to express Himself through His creatures who He desires to elevate to a nature suitable to Himself. Given the unbounded and unimaginable glory we see in His works of Nature why would anyone not want to be an intimate part of all that and much more?

You are very wrong though that all of Creation means nothing to Him. If it did not mean anything to Him he would not have suffered to lower Himself to human estate and share in the worst of the same sufferings we do. If God did not love man in his imperfection he would not have bothered to redeem us and make it possible for us to escape from the limitations of our fallen human nature and attain to theosis and be infinitely more than we currently are.

You are applying faulty logic. Your contempt is misdirected. God desires purity and innocence - yes. But God knows our nature is sinful and that holds us back from reaching our potential. You need to see God as the Divine Doctor who is making it possible for us to overcome the imperfection in our nature. You are wrong to assume that imperfection and evil are an organic part of our humanity. Man was originally created perfect and uncorrupted. If is only after disobeying God through freewill that man became corrupted. We are lucky to have a merciful God that gives us a way to regain our original nature and even exceed it by MUCH more than we ever had before.

James

 

[Namesake]

He desires to make us into divine-human beings that He can have a loving relationship with Him and also to bring glory to His son Jesus

So then, if we do not bring glory to His son Jesus does that mean that Jesus misses out on some glory? I would think that God would give enough glory to Jesus that our contribution wouldn’t matter. So what difference does it make to God? I mean, He gives the glory, not us mere humans.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Well, it would be pretty hard to believe that when I do a surgical procedure and the patient is freed from their affliction that I wasn’t the instrument of cure. I cut out the disease and then the patient heals from the wound I made. But I effected the cure from the disease.

You removed some spurious tissues - a fibrous tumor or a cancerous tumor. You did not invoke a holistic cure - you simply removed a knot of tissue that may have been occluding a blood vessel or presenting some discomfort to a nerve or degraded a nearby organ. That tumor will come right back again in time - if not there somwhere else. But it was the body that closed up the suture sites with new tissue and and marshaled the immune system (with or without supplemental antibiotics) to ward off the infections and contaminants you introduced when you opened up the body cavity to create new scar tissue etc. You were nothing but a mechanical arm with a guidance system on a scalpel - a thing that any robotic DaVinci surgical robot will soon automate in the near future with less invasive intrusion and more precise and perfect depth control better than your limited vision can discern or control.

You are obsolete and have an overrated opinion of yourself.

James

 

[Namesake]

You removed some spurious tissues - a fibrous tumor or a cancerous tumor. You did not invoke a holistic cure - you simply removed a knot of tissue that may have been occluding a blood vessel or presenting some discomfort to a nerve or degraded a nearby organ. That tumor will come right back again in time - if not there somwhere else. But it was the body that closed up the suture sites with new tissue and and marshaled the immune system (with or without supplemental antibiotics) to ward off the infections and contaminants you introduced when you opened up the body cavity to create new scar tissue etc. You were nothing but a mechanical arm with a guidance system on a scalpel - a thing that any robotic DaVinci surgical robot will soon automate in the near future with less invasive intrusion and more precise and perfect depth control better than your limited vision can discern or control.

You are obsolete and have an overrated opinion of yourself.

James

I betcha when you need a surgical cure you feel differently about that. I bet you will hope and pray that your surgeon is a lot more than what you describe.

 

[Ignatius]

So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan?

And why do we have to choose between breathing or suffocating, between eating or starving. It’s just not fair!!! Pedantic, pedantic, pedantic!!!

 

[CentralFLJames]

So then, if we do not bring glory to His son Jesus does that mean that Jesus misses out on some glory? I would think that God would give enough glory to Jesus that our contribution wouldn’t matter. So what difference does it make to God? I mean, He gives the glory, not us mere humans.

You are missing the goodness of God here. God’s love requires that He share his divine glory with His human-divine children in a way that we feel a real and authentic ownership in it. Don’t you see that God is GOOD? It is His very nature to share and to want to have us co-participate in our own salvation by feeling like we cooperated with it and were part of it. God’s love is bi-directional - he wants not only to love us but for us to be able to experience the joy of loving Him in a way that can please Him. God is 100% authentic and could never accept an insincere love nor give an insincere praise or a glory that we would be too embarrassed to accept due to feeling unworthy. No - God is going to make us like HIM so we can participate in His glory and have ownership to the maximum extent a created soul may know God.

What father would not give everything good to his own son or daughter? Do you really imagine that God can have an insincere or limited love? Impossible - we have unimaginably good things coming to us if we can prove ourselves by trusting Him and cooperating with His grace.

James

 

[ricmat]

So what difference does it make to God? I mean, He gives the glory, not us mere humans.

To give glory can also mean to give honor. And in any case, when we give honor/glory, it is not for the benefit of God. It benefits us by acknowledging our place in creation as created beings, and God’s omnipotence and love. It is a natural reaction to God’s love.