ELCA and Catholic Unity (?)

[Usige]

How can the Church be a teaching? Isn’t the Church composed of people? Is this what Catholics believe about the nature of the Church?

Yes, one definition of the Church is the people, but the teaching and authority were not left to the people as a whole. Rather Christ left the apostles and their successors to lead the Church. The beliefs of the Church are defined through the magisterial office of the bishops, completely independent from what any individual member might happen to believe at a given point in time.

Let me use an analogy. Let say you are driving along the highway, keeping up with the flow of traffic. You look behind you and a police officer has their lights on and pulls you over. He tells you that you were doing 78 in a 65 zone. You try to explain that everyone was speeding and there were some people doing over 80. The officer shrugs and proceeds to write you a ticket. If you were to go to court the case would be “Dave Noonan vs The People of XYZ”.

In this instance who are “The People of XYZ”? Is it the collective will of the individuals or the authority set over those people to maintain order? If all the people of XYZ were speeding, then should not the speed limit be defined by the average speed of all the users of the highway and not by some nebulous authority?

If you follow your same vein of thought, then the Israeli religion was based on prayer to Ba’al, Ashtoreth, and any number of pagan gods and goddesses. Since many rejected the laws and beliefs lain out in the Torah then those books do not accurately describe the Jewish religion. In stead we see God constantly raising up prophets and judges to bring the people back to follow the laws as he gave to Moses and the Patriarchs.

The whole point is that the actions of the people do not define the system of beliefs. I’ve been known to lie and lust after someone that is not my wife, but that does not mean that those actions define my beliefs, let alone the beliefs of the Catholic Church. This is no different that the state, as an institution, defining the laws rather than the collective action of the people subject to those laws. The difference is that individuals vote for their representatives in a democracy, but in the Church it is the bishops who are the representatives of God that He placed over His people to maintain order.

The reason the Church is not a democracy is that people left to their own devices tend to do what is evil in the sight of God (go read the books of Exodus, Judges, Joshua, et cetera and that is the pattern over and over again). Rather than letting people “vote” themselves in to Hell, God set shepherds over them (i.e. the bishops) to keep them from danger. That unfortunately doesn’t mean that men aren’t like sheep and do stupid stuff to satisfy their base wants at a given moment, but those that stay close to the shepherd are less likely to be devoured by wolves.

 

[Usige]

The “tolerance” you describe manifests as a view there is no truth to be taught on serious matters. Unity can only extend where common truths are held.

That is really where I have a hard time understanding that we are “united”. A few years ago I was talking with a friend who’s father is an ELCA pastor and it seems like truth is left to each individual. The impression I get is that each person is left to follow the Lord in anyway they can. Would we say that 200 people scattered over 200 square miles are united? I’m not sure how the ELCA can have unity, when I don’t even know if they have unity within their own community.

 

[Thorolfr]

The “tolerance” you describe manifests as a view there is no truth to be taught on serious matters. Unity can only extend where common truths are held.

Since we know that the ELCA and the Catholic Church will never hold common positions on a host of issues that neither side will be willing to compromise on in the end, it seems to me that an attempt to find unity is not a realistic exercise. Neither side, for example, will probably ever be able to find a common position on the ordination of women. That being the case, even if they both agreed on a common understanding of the Eucharist, how could a Catholic ever take the bread from a woman Lutheran pastor or any Lutheran pastor who Catholics would consider not to have apostolic succession?

 

[Rau]

Since we know that the ELCA and the Catholic Church will never hold common positions on a host of issues that neither side will be willing to compromise on in the end, it seems to me that an attempt to find unity is not a realistic exercise. Neither side, for example, will probably ever be able to find a common position on the ordination of women. That being the case, even if they both agreed on a common understanding of the Eucharist, how could a Catholic ever take the bread from a woman Lutheran pastor or any Lutheran pastor who Catholics would consider not to have apostolic succession?

That seems reasonable. The ELCA goes a step further by having multiple positions on some issues, which I think is in itself another impediment.

 

[Usige]

That being the case, even if they both agreed on a common understanding of the Eucharist, how could a Catholic ever take the bread from a woman Lutheran pastor or any Lutheran pastor who Catholics would consider not to have apostolic succession?

That is certainly my feeling. When we’ve had a Lutheran or Episcopalian minister at an ecumenical prayer service offer a “priestly” blessing I think “That was nice, now where’s Father so that I can actually receive a blessing from God.”

In my eyes they are no more able to confect the Eucahrist or offer certain types of blessings that I, as a layman, could. The only unity I can see is them returning to the Catholic Church and many people would rather dine with Satan than do that. I’ve actually known humanists that I am more in unity of belief with than members of other Christian communities.

I’m all for working toward unity, but not at the expense of turning a blind eye to where people have turned their back on Christ and His teachings.

 

[MichaelP3]

Moral Evil may not be done, even for that end.

Did I say I agree with my hypothetical? Or not? Some of us went into that argumentative direction, so rather educate the person who very clearly indicated his position. (Just a hint, it’s not me )

 

[MichaelP3]

I always raise my eyebrows when reading you. I said Innocent said torture was regrettable, but allowable. You took offense at that statement, and yet now you realize that there could becircumstances which call for it. Are you not saying the same thing as Innocent?

I guess we had too many raised eyebrows for one day. Now I took offence because of this and that? (while standing around a BBQ talking nonsense politics with friends btw). Rather keep to the facts and what people actually say. Go read further on this thread and see some Catholic friends saying no to torture while I guess mistakenly referred to me.

And also it is pretty clear it got boring for them according to another one. So we can stop and keep to the topic. Jaw droppings aren’t all good .

 

[Tomdstone]

Unity can only extend where common truths are held.

This is the position of many Eastern Orthodox who do not generally give Holy communion to Roman Catholics. However, Roman Catholics allow Eastern Orthodox to receive Holy Communion. Eastern Orthodox do not accept universal papal jurisdiction and infallibility and so many do not see any hope of reunion of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

 

[Rau]

This is the position of many Eastern Orthodox who do not generally give Holy communion to Roman Catholics. However, Roman Catholics allow Eastern Orthodox to receive Holy Communion. Eastern Orthodox do not accept universal papal jurisdiction and infallibility and so many do not see any hope of reunion of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Fascinating!

 

[Peter_J]

Doesn’t the Catholic Church admit contradictory positions?

In the same way, one could say “Doesn’t the LCMS admit contradictory positions?”

 

[Peter_J]

It is not doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son?

One of the recommendations made by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Consultation was “that the Catholic Church, following a growing theological consensus, and in particular the statements made by Pope Paul VI, declare that the condemnation made at the Second Council of Lyons (1274) of those “who presume to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son” is no longer applicable”.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I share the cynicism as to the likelihood of any change in the extensive set of substantive differences. That was kind of the point of the OP though I was rather to brief to make it clear!

We can do nothing greater than love God and love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. All this disunity just puts barriers between us and our neighbours, so we cannot love them as we love ourselves.

the greatest commandments seem invisible, when we talk about working towards unity.

 

[Wannano]

We can do nothing greater than love God and love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. All this disunity just puts barriers between us and our neighbours, so we cannot love them as we love ourselves.

the greatest commandments seem invisible, when we talk about working towards unity.

I totally agree with you. I am sure some will not appreciate or agree with me but I feel that so much of “religion” is not pleasing to God at all. Without genuine love we and all our arguments amount to NOTHING!

 

[Peter_J]

I totally agree with you. I am sure some will not appreciate or agree with me but I feel that so much of “religion” is not pleasing to God at all. Without genuine love we and all our arguments amount to NOTHING!

+1

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I totally agree with you. I am sure some will not appreciate or agree with me but I feel that so much of “religion” is not pleasing to God at all. Without genuine love we and all our arguments amount to NOTHING!

If Jesus had said, the greatest commandment is to be a Catholic, and follow the successors of Peter, then I could understand why all our differences would keep us apart.

If Jesus was amongst us today, and we asked Jesus about the greatest commandments, and who is my neighbour? Jesus might say, that after the priest and the deacon passed by, The Good Muslim came along…

In the parable of The Good Samaritan, Jesus put the greatest commandments above religious duties.

 

[Wannano]

:

If Jesus had said, the greatest commandment is to be a Catholic, and follow the successors of Peter, then I could understand why all our differences would keep us apart.

If Jesus was amongst us today, and we asked Jesus about the greatest commandments, and who is my neighbour? Jesus might say, that after the priest and the deacon passed by, The Good Muslim came along…

In the parable of The Good Samaritan, Jesus put the greatest commandments above religious duties.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I just love anything that brings people together, I have been a Street Pastor for eight years, this is a group of Christians from many denominations; who strive to bring about some kind of peace in our towns.

Before going out, we pray together, we pray for each other and we pray for the town. We wonder the streets until around 4 am, and come into contact with drunks, drugs, angry people fights, depression and of course mostly wonderful people.

It can seem risky looking for the good in all people, especially when they are punching the living daylights out of each other. But God does wonderful things, and I give thanks for the profound sense of peace I experience in the most extreme circumstances.

 

[LutheranScholar]

In the same way, one could say “Doesn’t the LCMS admit contradictory positions?”

What does the LCMS have to do with the ELCA and Catholic Unity??

 

[Peter_J]

What does the LCMS have to do with the ELCA and Catholic Unity??

We don’t always stay on topic perfectly.

 

[LutheranScholar]

We don’t always stay on topic perfectly.

Yeah, you’re right. My contribution on this is while the Catholic Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America are able to find some bits of common ground, their theologies are a bit disparate for them to come to an Altar and Pulpit fellowship similar to what the ELCA shares now with various church bodies: religioustolerance.org/chr_comm.htm, elca.org/Faith/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion.

That isn’t to say that the Catholic Church does not permit Communion to be distributed to members of other churches:* Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 §3).* usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-eucharist/guidelines-for-the-reception-of-communion.cfm.

As with the LCMS, apparently the RCC requires full doctrinal assent to what they believe is happening at the Holy Eucharist and they must be in doctrinal Christian fellowship before the Host is received. The ELCA might perhaps take a more liberal tone and grant more latitude to those churches it shares its communion with and of course, there are subtle differences in belief between Catholic and Lutheran interpretations of what is actually happening during the Consecration and who is worthy to partake of the Eucharist.

The Epitome of the Formula of Concord holds a most definitive view of what occurs during the Lord’s Supper and who may partake thereof: bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#VII. The Lord’s Supper and the Catechism of the Catholic Church also has strong standards on who might receive the Holy Eucharist: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm.