ELCA elects female presiding bishop

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I am no expert on the subject, but I suspect this is correct.

I would guess that any kind of “corporate” union between the Catholic Church and Protestant groups will be very small; rather like the few Anglican parishes that joined the Catholic Church as a body, retaining some liturgical things and a separate structure up to a point.

My guess is that future "Protestant’ reunions with the Church will be on an individual basis, with the most fertile ground being among Southern Fundamentalists. I’ll admit I stole that opinion from Flannery O’Connor, but have seen it in my own Bible Belt parish. The greatest number of converts are definitely from Fundamentalist groups. Perhaps that shouldn’t be too surprising. As O’Connor put it (paraphrasing) “…Southern Fundamentalists would be greatly surprised to learn that they have more in common with the Catholic Church than they do with classic Protestantism”. The more or less unchurched, but nominally mainline folks being the second largest category around here.

There will probably always be ecumenical contacts between the Catholic Church and the more organized Protestant groups, but it never really seems to lead to anything other than diplomatically worded statements of shared beliefs that don’t mention or very mildly acknowledge the gulfs between them.

There are lots of serious differences; perhaps the main one being the acceptance of the teaching authority of the Church. If one doesn’t accept that, one is a long, long way from being Catholic. In that sense, someone like an ultra high church Anglican is as far away from the Catholic Church as is a snake-handling non-denominational, no matter how many outward similarities the former may have with Catholic practice or how few the latter have.
👍👍👍 YES! You know I’ve thought this was true but still had the kneejerk theory that “Episcopalians are almost Catholics” because they have many of the same optics and surface appearance. But as the Church maintained the consistency and strong foundational teaching, the Episcopal Church (and other Prot Mainlines) have gone FAR from Home. Between female “priests” and “bishops,” support for abortion, non-marital sexual relations, alternative lifestyles and demeaning their own roots, there is little resemblance between the Episcopal church and Catholicism. Far closer are our Evangelical brothers and sisters with their strong traditional values of marriage, children, community support and charity. I see many more efforts to “feed the hungry, clothe the naked…” from the local Evangelical tradition churches than from the liberal Protestants and other liberal faith traditions (Unitarians for example).

You might look at an Episcopal church, the robes, the altar and the Communion ritual and think it’s “Catholic lite” but only the surface bears resemblance.

Lisa
 
I think there is much projection in some posters statements rather than reality. Lutherans worldwide are accepting female clergy as are Anglicans and many other mainline Protestants.

Yet the Vatican going many several decades continue to encourage and dialogue with the Lutheran Communion [Lutheran World Federation], visit Lutheran cathedrals to pray and even consider intercommunion at the 500th anniversary of the Martin Luther in 2017.

Pope Benedict came very close to acknowledging Lutherans as within the Catholic faith and Pope Francis continues to speak encouragement of the role of women in the Church.

Popes are leaders who may have visions much more ecumenical than some laity care to even acknowledge.
 
Just minutes ago, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) elected a female to be that church body’s presiding bishop, Elizabeth Eaton.

I’m curious as to how this will affect ecumenical relations with other church bodies. I imagine it strengthens the ELCA’s ties with the Episcopal Church (ECUSA), which already has a female bishop in Katherine Jefferts-Schori. Interesting side note: Eaton is married to an Episcopal priest, Conrad Selnick.

I can’t see it doing anything to help relations with the Roman Catholic Church or other orthodox bodies like the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS), which do not practice or allow female ordination to the pastoral office.

What is your take on this? How will this affect ecumenical relations with Rome going forward? Will the focus of Lutheran-Catholic dialogue change, or will different partner churches be sought? How will this affect relations with more-Confessional Lutheran bodies, or with greater Christendom, in general?
Please define orthodox, I don’t think our definitions match.

To me orthodox means taking the creeds literally and seriously, and the Holy Scriptures seriously but not literally.

My definition does not include any kind of politics.

I think orthodox has been radically re-defined since ECUSA began ordaining women to the priesthood.
 
Yet the Vatican going many several decades continue to encourage and dialogue with the Lutheran Communion [Lutheran World Federation], visit Lutheran cathedrals to pray and even consider intercommunion at the 500th anniversary of the Martin Luther in 2017.
There is ZERO chance of intercommunion. What source do you have that would claim that any Vatican official, or any Catholic official at all, would even be considering that?
 
There is ZERO chance of intercommunion. What source do you have that would claim that any Vatican official, or any Catholic official at all, would even be considering that?
I am not at my home computer but will provide the evidence you request later today.
 
I’m saddened to see anybody that has received the Word of God then turn away from it.

As has been said, “[the] rough beast of decadence … now sends us slouching towards our new home, not Bethlehem but Gomorrah.”
 
Lutherans worldwide are accepting female clergy as are Anglicans and many other mainline Protestants.
Correction… People calling themselves Lutheran but who reject the Bible, the Creeds, and the Lutheran Confessions are accepting female clergy.

It’s a free country, so we are free to call ourselves anything. But those of us who still have the seemingly rare power of reading comprehension are also free to defend the faith.
 
I think orthodox has been radically re-defined since ECUSA began ordaining women to the priesthood.
I don’t think any confessional Lutheran is claiming that those who ordain women are orthodox. Quite the opposite in fact. And would rather these seeming Unitarians would stop using the name Lutheran, Anglican or the name of any other church that is doing it’s best to proclaim the Word of God in these secular times.
 
I think there is much projection in some posters statements rather than reality. Lutherans worldwide are accepting female clergy as are Anglicans and many other mainline Protestants.

Yet the Vatican going many several decades continue to encourage and dialogue with the Lutheran Communion [Lutheran World Federation], visit Lutheran cathedrals to pray and even consider intercommunion at the 500th anniversary of the Martin Luther in 2017.

Pope Benedict came very close to acknowledging Lutherans as within the Catholic faith and Pope Francis continues to speak encouragement of the role of women in the Church.

Popes are leaders who may have visions much more ecumenical than some laity care to even acknowledge.
The Popes have also prayed with Muslims, but that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church is anywhere near acknowledging that Islam is within the Catholic faith.

Did one expect the Popes to publicly trample on a copy of the Augsberg Confession or something? Of course they won’t do that. And they won’t trample on a Koran or a Book of Mormon, either. They will acknowledge those things that are shared without ever abandoning those things that are not.

Let’s look at it the other way. Does anyone really expect the Lutherans to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church in toto someday? I could sort of imagine it a little, but I doubt a dedicated Lutheran body, particularly LCMS would. And there’s no possibility whatever that the Catholic Church is going to say to the Lutherans “oh, you’re part of the Church; the only part whose synods can determine matters of faith and morals no matter what the Magesterium of the Church teaches.”

I don’t think the Catholic Church is going to change in that regard, and I doubt the Lutheran Church will either. There will be cordiality. There will be expressions of shared beliefs and values. There will be fraternal relations. But there will not be unity without a real sea change on the part of one or the other, and after 2,000 years I don’t much think it will come from the Catholic side.

Those Anglican parishes that became Catholic as parishes, clergy and all, found themselves already Catholic in all but name, some elements of liturgy, true apostolic succession and structure above the bishop level. When the greatest portion of their church pulled away from what they were, the drama of it caused them to acknowledge that their journey to Catholicism was all but accomplished anyway.

Parenthetically, Pope Francis’ words about the role of women in the Church did not imply something like womens’ ordination. I’m not a betting man, but I would give very serious odds on that one if I was. If I had to guess, and I’m only guessing like everybody else, my guess would be that he would like to see a greater role for women in some modern (or perhaps not so modern) sense similar to the towering personalities that pertained in much of the Middle Ages, when bishops and even Popes sought the advice and counsel of the great abbesses and female scholars and mystics. But those women were entirely orthodox in their Catholicism while simultaneously being recognized as exceedingly wise and/or spiritually gifted.

There’s a history to look at for that, but none for womens’ ordination.
 
I think the** directional shift of the CC toward confessional Lutheranism has already started**, not that the USCCB or Vatican will simply cut ties.
My take on it is it is very sad to see. I love my friends, fellow Lutherans, and family in the ELCA.

Jon
How so, Jon? Could you elaborate?🙂

And pardon my ignorance, but what is “confessional Lutheranism”?
 
There are several occasions where Lutherans have interacted with the Papal Office over the past 50+ years where the Eucharistic unity has been prayed together . Here are a few documents to consider:

ECUMENICAL PRAYER SERVICE

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II

Lutheran Cathedral of Uppsala
Friday, 9 June 1989

“May all be one… so that the world may believe that you have sent me” (Io. 17, 21).

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
  1. With these words of the Gospel before us, I wish to give thanks to Almighty God who in his loving Providence has made it possible for me to be with you today. My cordial greeting goes to Their Majesties King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia, whose presence I gladly acknowledge with fervent prayers for the peace and well-being of the nation. I also wish to express my thanks to Archbishop Werkström, who has opened wide the door of friendship for this ecumenical service. To all of you who have come here this morning to pray with the Bishop of Rome I extend the hand of brotherhood and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ . . .
  2. Dear brothers and sisters: this Gospel touches each of us personally. Christ’s priestly prayer includes us, inasmuch as we too have become believers through the apostles’ word. The gift of salvation, which restores man to communion with God and with others, is directed to all. “It has pleased God to make men holy and to save them not merely as individuals without any mutual bonds, but by making them into a single people, a people which acknowledges him in truth and serves him in holiness” (Lumen Gentium, 9). Into the unity of the one Church of Christ, then, God calls all who believe that Jesus is “the author of salvation and the source of unity and peace” (Ibid.). He, in fact, has established this Church, “that for each and all she may be the visible sacrament of this saving unity” . . .
  3. We must acknowledge with sorrow that Christians are not united. At the same time we can be confident that the Lord of history has not abandoned us to our divisions. He wisely and patiently draws us by his grace to an ever greater remorse for them and an ever greater desire for unity . . .
Despite all the dissension and division over the centuries, belief in our one Lord and Saviour and incorporation into him by Baptism ensures a kind of communion, however imperfect. Baptism, which is a sacramental bond among all those who have been reborn, is at the same time a dynamic point of departure. Once baptized, we must strive for fullness of life in Christ, a fullness that is expressed in the complete profession of faith and in the sacramental unity and fellowship of the Church as Christ willed it to be.

As I stated last year to a Delegation from the Lutheran World Federation: “Because we already share bonds of unity in Christ through Baptism, we can never be satisfied with anything less than full communion”
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…ppsala_en.html
 
I feel bad for Confessional Lutherans who remain pious but whose reputation is now tarnished because of the actions of their former brethren in the ELCA.

It’s always sad to see Christian churches take these excessively liberal routes. But I’m honestly not surprised, here. The ELCA went apostate a long time ago.
 
elcjhl.org/2010/12/16/lwf-president-younan-invites-pope-benedict-xvi-to-help-plan-500th-anniversary-commemoration/

VATICAN City, Vatican/GENEVA, 16 December 2010 (LWI) – The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) President Bishop Dr Munib A. Younan has invited Pope Benedict XVI to work together with the Lutheran communion in realizing an ecumenically accountable commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

“For us there is joy in the liberating power of the gospel proclaimed afresh by the reformers, and we will celebrate that,” said Younan in a message today, when he led a seven-member delegation in a private audience with the Pope. He underlined the need to recognize both the damaging aspects of the Reformation and ecumenical progress.

“But we cannot achieve this ecumenical accountability on our own, without your help. Thus we invite you to work together with us in preparing this anniversary, so that in 2017 we are closer to sharing in the Bread of Life than we are today.”

Greeting the LWF delegation, Pope Benedict expressed gratitude for “the many significant fruits produced” by decades of bilateral discussions between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, saying it had been possible “slowly and patiently to remove barriers and to foster visible bonds of unity by means of theological dialogue and practical cooperation, especially at the level of local communities.” In the years leading up to the next Reformation anniversary, “Catholics and Lutherans are called to reflect anew on where our journey towards unity has led us and to implore the Lord’s guidance and help for the future,” he said.

The Pope pointed out that the signing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ), whose tenth anniversary was marked in 2009, “has proved a significant step along the difficult path towards re-establishing full unity among Christians and a stimulus to further ecumenical discussion.”

He reiterated his expectation that the close contacts and intensive dialogue which have characterized ecumenical relations between Catholics and Lutherans would continue to bear rich fruit.

Representing every LWF region, the delegation included also the General Secretary Rev. Martin Junge and regional vice presidents from Africa, Presiding Bishop Alex G. Malasusa (Tanzania); from Central Eastern Europe, Bishop Tamás Fabiny (Hungary); and from the Nordic region, Presiding Bishop Helga Haugland Byfuglien (Norway); and staff. Also present was Kurt Cardinal Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU), and other Vatican staff.

In his statement, Younan reiterated the LWF’s commitment to “moving closer toward one another around this Table of the Lord, which Luther saw as the summa evangelii.” The LWF president pointed out that while it was important to “rejoice in each small step which brings us closer together, we do not want to be content with these steps. We remain strong in hope – both for the full visible unity of Christ’s Church and for the Eucharistic communion which is so crucial a manifestation of that unity.”

Younan presented to the Pope a gift from Bethlehem, a carving depicting the Last Supper. Referring to this image, he said, “Each of us can bear witness to the importance of this sacramental meal in nurturing our own Christian lives. Each of us also knows the yearning for the time when we will be able to celebrate this feast together,” said the LWF president.

Younan noted that the LWF had taken a significant step toward Christian reconciliation at its July 2010 Eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart, Germany, by asking forgiveness from Mennonites for the persecution of Anabaptists in the 16th century. In preparing for this act, he said, the LWF was mindful that this legacy was shared by other traditions, including Roman Catholics, who with other ecumenical guests stood in solemn solidarity when the action was pronounced at the Assembly.

“We believe that we took this action on behalf of the whole body of Christ. We pray that this spirit of repentance, reconciliation and renewal will continue to grow among us.”

Younan, who is head of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land, noted that Catholics and Lutherans share a vision for just peace in the Middle East and support a two-state solution with a shared Jerusalem. He thanked the Pope for his moral leadership in exposing the injustices and idolatries of the global financial crisis – also a concern shared by the LWF, notably in its advocacy against illegitimate debt. On both issues, he urged closer collaboration.

“Our witness will be stronger if we will work together on these problems. Thus we look forward to forging multiple cooperations with our Catholic sisters and brothers at all levels, locally as well as globally,” Younan said.

The LWF president noted that he and the General Secretary represent the new leadership of the global Lutheran communion. Younan was elected President at Stuttgart in July, while Junge began his term of office in November.

The audience with the Pope honors the extraordinary journey by the two churches in recent years, and is a sign of hope for their future relations, Younan said.

Lutherans continue to rejoice, he added, because of the ways the two churches have reached new degrees of theological understanding and agreement, noting in particular the landmark Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

“Within our own lifetimes, the climate of relations between Lutherans and Catholics has warmed dramatically – and this climate change has been for the good! Around the world our churches live in a new ecology of relationship.” Younan concluded.
 
Maybe on an organizational level that’s true, because they can at least agree on some things and agree to disagree on others. But the tighter the adherence to central beliefs, the more permanent the disagreement is likely to be. The Catholic Church is not going to change and, frankly, I don’t much see LCMS as a corporate body changing either.

But on an individual basis, it might be the exact opposite. Not to be insulting, but when it comes to ultra-liberal churchs, oftentimes there’s really no “there” there, and people can end up feeling pretty rudderless in something where finding solid meaning is everything.
I think there are more than a few LCMS that are already Catholic in their beliefs, they are just used to calling themselves Lutherans.
 
I think there are more than a few LCMS that are already Catholic in their beliefs, they are just used to calling themselves Lutherans.
Could be. One would have to know their beliefs awfully well to conclude that. But it could be. One assumes it’s a de facto thing and they are not conscious of their being Catholic in their beliefs, because if they were, they would no longer feel it right to still belong to the Lutheran church, participate in Lutheran services, and so on.
 
Is this from the Vatican?

Jon
Oh, so NOW you look to the Vatican for an authoritative position??? 😛

Just kidding, Jon…I understand why you would ask, and it’s a good question.
 
How so, Jon? Could you elaborate?🙂

And pardon my ignorance, but what is “confessional Lutheranism”?
Hi Michael
Confessional Lutherans are committed to the confessions, particularly the Augsburg Confession and small Catechism as the are written. More liberal Lutherans tend to be willing to evaluate he confessions in light of modern understandings.

On dialogue;
firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/02/roman-catholics-and-confessional-lutherans-explore-deeper-ties

Jon
 
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