Oh, so NOW you look to the Vatican for an authoritative position???
Just kidding, Jonā¦I understand why you would ask, and itās a good question.
Jon
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Jon
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MaryT777
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For any of the LCMS Posters.
do the Lutheran confessions specifically forbid women pastors and if so where?
Thanks,
Mary.
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MaryT777
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If they were Catholics in their beliefs they would convert to Catholicism.
On this forum several Lutherans call themselves Catholics yet profess the Lutheran confessions. Itās not the norm where I live for LCMS members to do so.
Must be the āopen mindedā Lutherans learning about Catholicism that do so and find themselves mosty Catholics just not ready to convert quite yet.
Mary.
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benjohnson
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The anti-Catholic raving from some LCMS members is usually cultural, and from what I can see, itās a mile wide and an inch deep.
Thankfully, as the increasingly secular culture is making us all have to intentionally be Christian rather than just fall into it, I think weāll see better relations out of necessity.
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moral_agnostic
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As someone who came from an ELCA background. I could not be more proud of what happened yesterday. I am sure Bishop Eaton will do an outstanding job. As for her husband being an Episcopal priest, the two churches are in full communion.
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benjohnson
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We are not called to be proud.
āIf I had only one sermon to preach it would be a sermon against pride.ā - G.K. Chesterton
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GKC
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From āIf I Were a Preacherā, originally published in the LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH, Dec 31, 1928, republished in Chesterton/THE COMMON MAN, 1950, p. 246, as āIf I had only One Sermon to Preachā, the original title.
GKC.
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Aramis
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Which raises the question: When will the LCMS break communion with the ELCA?
The LCMS are still, as a body, fundamentally not-Catholic - axiomatically, while they believe in the real presence, they donāt teach transubstantiation. (Which, definitionally, makes them Consubstantialists, even tho they reject the term. And Consubstantiation is anathematized heresy.) And they teach only two sacraments as sacraments: baptism and eucharist; they retain the form but not the substance of ordination, confirmation, last rites, and marriage. I donāt recall if the LCMS still uses individual confession/penance.
That all said, there are some LCMS parishes that do accept transubstantiation, and wish to become Catholic, as in, in communion with Rome, but also wish to retain the Lutheran liturgical praxis.
A Lutheran union would probably be very much like the LCMS in praxis, and like the Anglican Ordinariate in organization.
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steido01
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The LCMS has never shared communion with the ELCA. Some of its predecessor bodies, yes, but that stopped by the time the ELCA was formed in 1988. In fact, not only has the LCMS broken fellowship, it doesnāt even consider the ELCA to be an orthodox Lutheran body: blogs.lcms.org/2009/kieschnick-comments-on-elca-report-recommendation
-Former LCMS President Kieschnek, quoting a Synod-wide resolution which quoted former LCMS President Barry. The idea that the ELCA is not orthodox is not a new idea in the LCMS.
You have quite a few misconceptions about the LCMS, here. I wonāt address them all because this is not the purpose of my original post, but I canāt ignore a huge pet peeve - Lutherans do not profess Consubstatiation. This has been explained in many threads, most recently here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=814452
While we certainly wish for all of His children to be united and pursue all useful avenues for resolving doctrinal disputes, any LCMS parish that is intentionally teaching Transubstantiation is not clearly reflecting the Lutheran Confessions; we do not ascribe to any Aristotelian explanation of the miracle - whether it be Transubstantiation, Consubstantiation or something else.
Youāre probably right, should one ever happen on a large scale. Whatever happened to the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church? Do they still exist, or are they entirely Roman Catholic now?
As Don has mentioned, the LCMS is not in communion with the ELCA
Much discussion has taken place here recently regarding Lutheran teaching regarding consubstantiation. I would encourage you to read those posts and threads. Definitionally, we are consubstantiationists anymore than Catholics are Mary worshippers. But a quote from 17th century Lutheran theologian, Carpzov:
Bolding is mine.
Actually, we are free to consider Confession/Holy Absolution is a third sacrament, which I do - established by Christ, with a promise of grace - and held to beso in the early confessional documents. We actually do retain form and substance of all of these. Calling them a sacrament, or not calling them a sacrament, does not change or alter this fact.
Yes, there have been a few, but generally they have broken from the LCMS.
I would expect a reconciliation to look something like this.
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
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The comment that LCMS Lutherans are essentially āCatholicsā is incorrect. The LCMS is the only major Lutheran body in North America [if not the planet] without episcopacy and Apostolic Succession. LCMS tends to be congregational in polity, which means if a parish wants to leave the Synod they can just leave without permission from a bishop. In the ELCA, a parish can also leave the Synod in consultation with the bishop, but the church building may very well stay in the ELCA.
The Church Growth Movement [Protestant-like worship] is probably most prevalent in the LCMS; it was even taught at Concordia Seminary for a while.
Dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics has been under the auspices of the Lutheran World Federation; the organization of worldwide Lutherans that the LCMS declines to join.
The Church Growth Movement [Protestant-like worship] is probably most prevalent in the LCMS; it was even taught at Concordia Seminary for a while.
Dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics has been under the auspices of the Lutheran World Federation; the organization of worldwide Lutherans that the LCMS declines to join.
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benjohnson
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āAnd you shall not steal.ā
We decline to join the LWF precisely because there are synods there whose practices do not conform to the confessions or to scripture, including the subject of the thread. I have asked you before state from scripture and the confessions where ordination of women is approved.
On the topic of AS, you know quite well that presbyter ordination is acceptable under divine law, that it was practiced even before the Reformation (Cistercian abbots, as an example). AS is not the wedge issue between the ELCA and the LCMS. The wedge issue in ordination is the ELCAās ordination of women, and now openly practicing gays.
And lest there be any misunderstanding, it is not the LCMS that has changed, or is out of step with the historic Lutheran Church, or the Church Catholic. It is the ELCA and some other Lutheran synods that have decided to redefine ordination, not based on scripture or the confessions, but on what appears from the outside to be a desire to conform to the secular worldās definition of āequal rightsā. If Iām wrong about this, please correct me.
I will agree that to state that the LCMS is essentially Catholic (meaning here those in communion with the Bishop of Rome) understates the important differences we must still overcome.
Jon
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Tshabalala
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I wish that God should give her they power to work well and hard
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aemcpa
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A Lutheran Ordinariate sounds good to me.
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benjohnson
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Iāll be blunt - Iāve had an excellent female pastor the Gospel in the ELCA. My wife and I were married by her, and Iām still thankful for her God centered liturgy, preaching and teaching. After we moved, a few years later she was part of the process of leading her church out of the ELCA to a much more confessional Lutheran synod! 
My primary objection is not to the idea of female pastors, but I vehemently object to how it is accomplished - by turning away and denying the Word and the confessions. The price of denial is infinitely too high - for the is nothing more important than Godās salvation and maintaining that clear message of salvation for the next generation.
If a Lutheran church were to say " We know itās contrary to tradition, the bible, and the confessions but we have an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel, perhaps imperfectly, to a broken world by women pastors. May God have mercy on us!" that would be one argument.
But instead we get the arguments such as āThe Bible was written by men who want power for themselves! God is a women! Inclusive!ā and the result in the ELCA is this āLiturgy of the Divine Feminineā at āHerchurchā herchurch.org
This is not the fault of individual women pastors, the is the result of a church turning to secular dreams for a quasi works-based salvation based on saving Mother Earth, and a new form of pietism based on recycling and psudo-inclusivness.
My primary objection is not to the idea of female pastors, but I vehemently object to how it is accomplished - by turning away and denying the Word and the confessions. The price of denial is infinitely too high - for the is nothing more important than Godās salvation and maintaining that clear message of salvation for the next generation.
If a Lutheran church were to say " We know itās contrary to tradition, the bible, and the confessions but we have an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel, perhaps imperfectly, to a broken world by women pastors. May God have mercy on us!" that would be one argument.
But instead we get the arguments such as āThe Bible was written by men who want power for themselves! God is a women! Inclusive!ā and the result in the ELCA is this āLiturgy of the Divine Feminineā at āHerchurchā herchurch.org
This is not the fault of individual women pastors, the is the result of a church turning to secular dreams for a quasi works-based salvation based on saving Mother Earth, and a new form of pietism based on recycling and psudo-inclusivness.
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EvangelCatholic
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As a Lutheran, I am not suggesting that episcopacy/ Apostolic Succession are necessary but it is the norm in Lutheranism as the Church continues to restore catholicity. The Provoo Communion in Europe and full communion between the ELCA and Episcopal Church in the USA was based on AS to strengthen unity. If a Reformed minister is called to serve a Lutheran parish, the blessing of the bishop confers Apostolic Succession on him/ her as well. In its effort to find communion among other Christians, the ELCA is influencing spiritual thought and devotion to such things as the Real Presence, weekly Mass, Holy Absolution, etc.
As a former Missouri Synod Lutheran, I think the obsession on minute things to separate us is very unfortunate. While researching the difference between the LCMS and nearly all other Lutherans, I came across this article considering infant communion as another example of Missouri Synod nit-picking and divisiveness:
But letās be honest, there is no significant theological difference between Lutherans. What it comes down to is how we, as Christians, deal with others and the greater good of inclusion. Female ordination is becoming a non-issue among Lutherans, Anglicans and many other denominations. Human sexuality is viewed quite differently today than what was the mores of past centuries. Pope Francis is certainly touching on these issues also.
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steido01
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We were thinking it, you said it. :clapping:
St. Peterās Lutheran Church in Fort Pierce, FL and Grace Lutheran Church of Eau Claire, WI immediately come to mind.
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coachkfan1
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Agreed. This should be the first order of business. Until we are reconciled with our Orthodox brothers and sisters, the status of Protestants should always be secondary. No, I didnāt get this from the Vatican, only from common sense.
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