Elderly or infirm "liturgical ministers"?

[pianistclare]

That’s not really the case in the situation I’m asking about because he is the one that is at least sometimes presiding over the Masses that give rise to my question,

Well, then it would seem he doesn’t view it as an issue.
I know my priest, no matter how prickly at times, is very particular about the liturgy being celebrated well, and also VERY concerned for the safety and well being of the elderly.
If this issue was as bad as it appears in the original post, I seriously doubt the pastor would just shrug his shoulders over the whole thing.
He’s aware of it. Perhaps reading for Mass is one of the consolations in infirmity that this person has Let them have it, The priest obviously has a better viewpoint than any of us.
We’re all going to be that person one day. Please God, I hope people are kind.

(PS…our daily Mass is in a very small chapel, no acoustical problems, no steps…that’s what I was previously referring to. )

 

[Edmundus1581]

That’s not really the case in the situation I’m asking about because he is the one that is at least sometimes presiding over the Masses that give rise to my question,

The older, infirm, woman may be one of a clique of women who actually run the parish. If this is the case then the the implicit threat is that if she is stood down then the clique will obstruct the running of the parish, irregardless of the wishes of the priest. I’ve seen it happen.

 

[pianistclare]

The older, infirm, woman may be one of a clique of women who actually run the parish. If this is the case then the the implicit threat is that if she is stood down then the clique will obstruct the running of the parish, irregardless of the wishes of the priest. I’ve seen it happen.

Adn whose doing is that?

Some of those “old ladies” at parishes run the place because NO ONE else will step up.
Ask any priest. Behind every successful parish there is an army of women who do all the heavy lifting.

 

[MSSheBear]

Hold on just a moment. I didn’t say that I was personally impacted by elderly or infirm “liturgical ministers”, or that I felt I needed to do something about it. Nor did I ask whose responsibility it is to replace them.

I simply asked “I was wondering what others thought about very elderly or infirm “liturgical ministers” who refuse to graciously retire when there are ready replacements for them?”

I think if I asked that question in my parish to the pastor and the “liturgy committee” and they answered truthfully it would be something along the lines of “they have served for a very long time and they are entitled to continue as long as the possibly can even if it has a deleterious effect on the celebration of the Mass or places the Blesses Sacrament at risk.”

But I’m not really curious what my parish feels – I already know what they feel. I’m curious what others feel outside of my parish?

I should have read the original question more carefully. It is early for me. I have come across the infirm EHMC and I try to avoid them. That is as far as it go. They usually disappear from the roster Why don’t you actually ask instead of assuming? You may get problem? What problem? So and so has been EMHC for 30 years!

 

[MSSheBear]

I have come to the understanding that the powers that be at my parish do not care about my opinions. I have only observed that when it gets really bad the EMHC disappears.

 

[Solomonson]

I should have read the original question more carefully. It is early for me. I have come across the infirm EHMC and I try to avoid them. That is as far as it go. They usually disappear from the roster Why don’t you actually ask instead of assuming? You may get problem? What problem? So and so has been EMHC for 30 years!

I’m not “assuming” anything.

 

[Solomonson]

I have come to the understanding that the powers that be at my parish do not care about my opinions. I have only observed that when it gets really bad the EMHC disappears.

Sounds like we attend the same parish! It literally takes something tragic like a dropped ciborium or chalice for a change to be made.

 

[pianistclare]

The place for this discussion is with your pastor.
Why are you afraid to ask him? What can any of us do about it? You don’t seem to like anyone’;s comments.
Likely he will tell you it’s none of your business though.

You’ll be there one day.
Have a little mercy and patience.

 

[Solomonson]

The older, infirm, woman may be one of a clique of women who actually run the parish. If this is the case then the the implicit threat is that if she is stood down then the clique will obstruct the running of the parish, irregardless of the wishes of the priest. I’ve seen it happen.

I agree 100% I would put it in these terms: “If one of the elderly or infirm liturgical ministers was stood down, it would make things more difficult for the pastor.” That difficulty could take many forms. Others withholding their tithes, calls to the bishop, etc.

But again, I’m just curious what happens in other parishes, I already know what happens in mine.

 

[Solomonson]

Adn whose doing is that?

Some of those “old ladies” at parishes run the place because NO ONE else will step up. Ask any priest. Behind every successful parish there is an army of women who do all the heavy lifting.

That’s a terrible excuse. In the case of my parish, good people will not step up because they want nothing to do with the truly corrosive liturgical politics. They would be more than willing to serve their parish in a liturgical manner if the lay liturgical “coordinators” were not extremely difficult people – even among themeselves. It would be best if the pastor shouldered this responsibility himself given its importance, but sadly, that’s not the tradition in my parish.

In some cases new applicants are shunned because they don’t conform to the existing values of the different cliques. This too has had a terrible effect on the quality of lay ministers.

The one clear exception is our music ministry. My parish hired a pro who had a great deal of experience at a large parish on the East Coast. She had the wherewithal to reform the ministry that she’s in charge of. It was a long, difficult process for her. It’s highly respected today because of her.

 

[pianistclare]

That’s a terrible excuse. In the case of my parish, good people will not step up because they want nothing to do with the truly corrosive liturgical politics. They would be more than willing to serve their parish in a liturgical manner if the lay liturgical “coordinators” were not extremely difficult people. It would be best if the pastor shouldered this responsibility himself given its importance, but sadly, that’s not the tradition in my parish.

In some cases new applicants are shunned because they don’t conform to the existing values of the different cliques. This too has had a terrible effect on the quality of lay ministers.

The one clear exception is our music ministry. My parish hired a pro who had a great deal of experience at a large parish on the East Coast. She had the wherewithal to reform the ministry that she’s in charge of. It was a long, difficult process for her. It’s highly respected today because of her.

Oh please.
Come on down. I’ll give you plenty to do.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I agree 100% I would put it in these terms: “If one of the elderly or infirm liturgical ministers was stood down, it would make things more difficult for the pastor.” That difficulty could take many forms. Others withholding their tithes, calls to the bishop, etc.

But again, I’m just curious what happens in other parishes, I already know what happens in mine.

What happens in other parishes would depend on what that particular Pastor chooses to do about it.

I am a reader and EMHC and most of the elderly people I know who also participate in these ministries know when it’s time to stop. It may be a difficult thing for them to accept, but they usually do the right thing without any intervention from the Pastor or anyone else.

I am curious as to why this is of interest to you, especially if you have no control of any of it.

 

[pnewton]

The decision rests with the parish priest.

And more to the point, the task usually rests with the parish priest.

But sure something most be done if the person is no longer competent to fill the role. The same would hold true for musicians. This should not be any real hurdle. Most older people are not surprised at their age and understand well that as one ages there are more and more things that they cannot do. The consequences of some retaliation should not even be a factor. If it is the right thing to do, as in a reader who can’t read anymore because of eyesight, or a person with Parkinson’s handling the Eucharist or chalice, then the difficulty or awkwardness of the task should not prevent the person from being relieved. There is always a way to do it to offer some semblance of dignity and respect, assuming the person being asked to step down isn’t a stubborn jerk.

Again, I said **if **it is the right thing to do, something the priest must decide.

 

[pnewton]

In the case of my parish, good people will not step up because they want nothing to do with the truly corrosive liturgical politics. They would be more than willing to serve their parish in a liturgical manner if the lay liturgical “coordinators” were not extremely difficult people – even among themeselves…

And Jesus said to him, “No one having laid the hand upon the plow, and looking on the things behind, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

God needs men and women of backbone. The difficulty of the job should not deter one serving God. Priests spend eight years of their lives in preparation for their task. I am not sympathetic to people that want to help, but so-and-so is just tooooo difficult to get along with.

 

[MSSheBear]

Sounds like we attend the same parish! It literally takes something tragic like a dropped ciborium or chalice for a change to be made.

I haven’t actually seen an EHMC drop a ciborium or chalice. Our previous pastor would have exploded if he saw that and the EHMC would have disappeared.

Our new wonderful kind awesome priest doesn’t explode but the parish recruited a bunch of new younger EHMC’s recently. That kind of solves the problem.

 

[Solomonson]

And Jesus said to him, “No one having laid the hand upon the plow, and looking on the things behind, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

God needs men and women of backbone. The difficulty of the job should not deter one serving God. Priests spend eight years of their lives in preparation for their task. I am not sympathetic to people that want to help, but so-and-so is just tooooo difficult to get along with.

Characterizing what I posted about as “so-and-so is just tooooo difficult to get along with” is laughable. It’s far different than what you appear to think it is.

There are a number of different types of difficulties. Let me use just one as an example. The first is what I would call a “legitimate, good difficulty.” A reader who always attends the 09:00 Sunday Mass is called at the last minute to read for the Saturday 5:30 PM Mass. Doing so is going to require a struggle to get across town and in the process they are going to miss another event they had already planned to attend. Nonetheless, they make the effort and the sacrifice, and they end-up reading at the vigil Mass. Good on them. There are plenty of people in my parish that are willing to make such efforts.

On there other hand there are just outright nasty difficulties. The same reader gets the same last minute call. They explain how difficult it will be for them, but they commit to being there. Once they make their way to church, they are smugly told by the “coordinator” that someone else is reading – the coordinator. They swallow their emotions but perhaps not to the level expected by the coordinator. The following week – and every week after that, they find they have been removed from the schedule for reading at Mass. All without so much as an email or a quick call. Attempts to contact the coordinator fail – emails and calls are not returned. There aren’t a huge number of people in my parish that are willing to get involved once they have been burnt a few times in this manner.

Sadly (horrifically actually), people who get burned in this manner (at least in my parish) eventually become either hardened or dismissive. They become harsh and/or dismissive when they are asked to help the parish is other ways. They become ticket-punchers, yet they are derided for not taking a more active part in the parish.

 

[Solomonson]

I haven’t actually seen an EHMC drop a ciborium or chalice. Our previous pastor would have exploded if he saw that and the EHMC would have disappeared.

Our new wonderful kind awesome priest doesn’t explode but** the parish recruited a bunch of new younger EHMC’s recently.** That kind of solves the problem.

Who was in charge of that? The pastor himself? Was there resistance?

 

[paperwight66]

I haven’t actually seen an EHMC drop a ciborium or chalice. Our previous pastor would have exploded if he saw that and the EHMC would have disappeared.

.

If that had happened in my parish, and I got to hear of it, the EMHC wouldn’t have been the only one to ‘disappear’. I would have done, as well. Exploding because of an accident is shameful. I couldn’t tolerate such a lack of self-control and sympathy on the part of the priest.

I understand that he would be concerned about the Blessed Sacrament, but even so. ‘By their fruits you will know them’.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Characterizing what I posted about as “so-and-so is just tooooo difficult to get along with” is laughable. It’s far different than what you appear to think it is.

There are a number of different types of difficulties. Let me use just one as an example. The first is what I would call a “legitimate, good difficulty.” A reader who always attends the 09:00 Sunday Mass is called at the last minute to read for the Saturday 5:30 PM Mass. Doing so is going to require a struggle to get across town and in the process they are going to miss another event they had already planned to attend. Nonetheless, they make the effort and the sacrifice, and they end-up reading at the vigil Mass. Good on them. There are plenty of people in my parish that are willing to make such efforts.

On there other hand there are just outright nasty difficulties. The same reader gets the same last minute call. They explain how difficult it will be for them, but they commit to being there. Once they make their way to church, they are smugly told by the “coordinator” that someone else is reading – the coordinator. They swallow their emotions but perhaps not to the level expected by the coordinator. The following week – and every week after that, they find they have been removed from the schedule for reading at Mass. All without so much as an email or a quick call. Attempts to contact the coordinator fail – emails and calls are not returned. There aren’t a huge number of people in my parish that are willing to get involved once they have been burnt a few times in this manner.

Sadly (horrifically actually), people who get burned in this manner (at least in my parish) eventually become either hardened or dismissive. They become harsh and/or dismissive when they are asked to help the parish is other ways. They become ticket-punchers, yet they are derided for not taking a more active part in the parish.

You are expressing terribly uncharitable and pride filled emotions here. This is not what Christianity and God is about.

I hear the echo of these sentiments in atheists I know, in their arguments against God and His Church.

Moreover , you yourself are not on these teams, given your previous posts, so you are getting involved in something not your concern, and whipping up trouble and ill feeling. Another thing atheists delight in watching in us Christians.

Imitate Jesus Christ , my brother, let his light shine through you.

And I really think you should start attending Mass at an infirm home, they all seem in need of Pastoral Care helpers. Yes you will have to pick up dropped hosts, yes the readings might be slow and faltered, the reader might have to stop for a whiff of oxygen. The reader may have to press his voice box button. The elderly Priest or Bishop celebrating might be a bit slower.

Does God really care? Does Jesus not attend these type of Masses?

I will pray for you today, brother. All these issues seem to be corroding your Peace with worship perhaps?

 

[zab]

You are expressing terribly uncharitable and pride filled emotions here. This is not what Christianity and God is about.

I hear the echo of these sentiments in atheists I know, in their arguments against God and His Church.

Moreover , you yourself are not on these teams, given your previous posts, so you are getting involved in something not your concern, and whipping up trouble and ill feeling. Another thing atheists delight in watching in us Christians.

Imitate Jesus Christ , my brother, let his light shine through you.

And I really think you should start attending Mass at an infirm home, they all seem in need of Pastoral Care helpers. Yes you will have to pick up dropped hosts, yes the readings might be slow and faltered, the reader might have to stop for a whiff of oxygen. The reader may have to press his voice box button. The elderly Priest or Bishop celebrating might be a bit slower.

Does God really care? Does Jesus not attend these type of Masses?

I will pray for you today, brother. All these issues seem to be corroding your Peace with worship perhaps?

kpeople:npatrol: