Electrons In Camera

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I’m looking for pictures of electrons, so if anyone can describe an electrons properties and what the properties do I’d be interested to read.
 
I read that an electron has spin but that it has no substructure, so what is spin and what does it look like?:hmmm:
 
You said:
so what is spin and what does it look like?:hmmm:
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I can’t really make sense of the question. For the most part I understand a “look” to be the result of the pattern of photons emitted or reflected by an object at which one is looking. From what I understand electrons don’t reflect photons. They may absorb the energy of the photon, temporarily go into a higher energy state, and then release the extra energy in the form of a photon. If your eyes are sensitive enough to detect that single photon then it would “look” like a dot.

The most you could hope to do is map properties of the electron to representations that you can see but then you are really seeing what your representations looks like.
 
ThinkingSapien said:
I can’t really make sense of the question. For the most part I understand a “look” to be the result of the pattern of photons emitted or reflected by an object at which one is looking. From what I understand electrons don’t reflect photons. They may absorb the energy of the photon, temporarily go into a higher energy state, and then release the extra energy in the form of a photon. If your eyes are sensitive enough to detect that single photon then it would “look” like a dot.

The most you could hope to do is map properties of the electron to representations that you can see but then you are really seeing what your representations looks like.
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Thats what I want, a representation that is not a dot. If you could draw a representation of the electron which explains its spin and other properties…
 
You said:
Thats what I want, a representation that is not a dot. If you could draw a representation of the electron which explains its spin and other properties…
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A physicist friend of mine once told me that the spin of an electron is not at all like the spin of (say) a top or a wheel. That was just an arbitrary word choice. My best surmising is that a better imagery would be “handedness”; electrons with different spins but otherwise the same are somewhat like mirror images of each other.

To further confuse the issue, an electron can have angular momentum, but (IIRC) this is not related to the “spin” at all, but rather the mathematical properties of the electron’s state as a function of angular position. I am not sure it is “momentum” at all.

I admit, I could be wrong in any of this though. :o

So I think your question is really not answerable in the way you’d like. Have you looked up visual representations of orbitals? That might be a bit more intuitive.
 
As someone else said, looking is based on photons reflecting off objects and into the retinae of our eyes; but if an electron interacts with a photon, the photon is absorbed not reflected; so there is nothing to see. You might as well ask what total darkness looks like.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
:doh2:
GEddie said:
As someone else said, looking is based on photons reflecting off objects and into the retinae of our eyes; but if an electron interacts with a photon, the photon is absorbed not reflected; so there is nothing to see. You might as well ask what total darkness looks like.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
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You can see an electron in your minds eye if you can describe its properties, it is after all, just another material thing.
 
True but I thought you meant physical, optical seeing.

Thinking about something is not the same as seeing, IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
 
You said:
I’m looking for pictures of electrons, so if anyone can describe an electrons properties and what the properties do I’d be interested to read.
Click to expand...
I have a background in physical chemistry, so I think I know something about electrons.

(1) Electrons are point particles that have no volume but occupy a statistically set area
(2) If anyone were able to take a picture of an electron, they would violate the Heisenberg principle (statistical certainty of momentum and position are never equal to one…this becomes more dramatic the smaller the thing…like an electron).
(3) Due to various wave mechanics (which I will not go into here), it would not be possible to take a picture within the visual light spectrum (the part of light we humans see) of an electron.
(4) If you’re just interested in what electrons are about, just pick up any chemistry or physics book. If you want to learn what an electron really is, you’ll need to study wave mechanics, but most people do not have the mathematical background to understand it (Calculus I through DiffEq plus some basic linear algebra). I used David Tanner’s book for my quantum chemistry courses and it is just great.

That being said, there are many instruments that can “take a picture” of electron clouds. We’ve been able to do this since the early 1990s. Look up Atomic Force Microscopy or Scanning Tunneling Microscopy. I’m sure you’ll find “pictures,” (I keep using quotes as these aren’t visual light pictures). Also, if you want to see computer generated models of electron clouds, DFT and B3LYP can estimate excellent examples of ground-state wave functions and the ground-state energy of molecular orbitals (however I would avoid models of higher energy levels). Just google for pictures of DFT or B3LYP.

Also, about two years ago an Ukrainian team (I think they published in Science, but I cannot log into my scifinder account now) was able to use AFM to discreetly show the s2-orbitals of atomic carbon. It was an exact match of what our models (from sixty years ago) said it would look like.
 
manygift1spirit said:
A physicist friend of mine once told me that the spin of an electron is not at all like the spin of (say) a top or a wheel. That was just an arbitrary word choice. My best surmising is that a better imagery would be “handedness”; electrons with different spins but otherwise the same are somewhat like mirror images of each other.

To further confuse the issue, an electron can have angular momentum, but (IIRC) this is not related to the “spin” at all, but rather the mathematical properties of the electron’s state as a function of angular position. I am not sure it is “momentum” at all.

I admit, I could be wrong in any of this though. :o

So I think your question is really not answerable in the way you’d like. Have you looked up visual representations of orbitals? That might be a bit more intuitive.
Click to expand...
Thats all interesting. And it is the arbitrary terms for properties I am talking about. Spin, or handedness is a property with two? opposites. But I’d like to know, two opposite whats? What is it that is opposite to its opposite. If it has opposites then it has structure, no?.
 
GEddie said:
True but I thought you meant physical, optical seeing.

Thinking about something is not the same as seeing, IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Since an electron is too small to see, when I say see I mean visualize on paper or in my head a shape or form which contains the reason for its properties, if it has any. I am not always literal-speeking
 
Saint_Macarius said:
I have a background in physical chemistry, so I think I know something about electrons.

(1) Electrons are point particles that have no volume but occupy a statistically set area
(2) If anyone were able to take a picture of an electron, they would violate the Heisenberg principle (statistical certainty of momentum and position are never equal to one…this becomes more dramatic the smaller the thing…like an electron).
(3) Due to various wave mechanics (which I will not go into here), it would not be possible to take a picture within the visual light spectrum (the part of light we humans see) of an electron.
(4) If you’re just interested in what electrons are about, just pick up any chemistry or physics book. If you want to learn what an electron really is, you’ll need to study wave mechanics, but most people do not have the mathematical background to understand it (Calculus I through DiffEq plus some basic linear algebra). I used David Tanner’s book for my quantum chemistry courses and it is just great.

That being said, there are many instruments that can “take a picture” of electron clouds. We’ve been able to do this since the early 1990s. Look up Atomic Force Microscopy or Scanning Tunneling Microscopy. I’m sure you’ll find “pictures,” (I keep using quotes as these aren’t visual light pictures). Also, if you want to see computer generated models of electron clouds, DFT and B3LYP can estimate excellent examples of ground-state wave functions and the ground-state energy of molecular orbitals (however I would avoid models of higher energy levels). Just google for pictures of DFT or B3LYP.

Also, about two years ago an Ukrainian team (I think they published in Science, but I cannot log into my scifinder account now) was able to use AFM to discreetly show the s2-orbitals of atomic carbon. It was an exact match of what our models (from sixty years ago) said it would look like.
Click to expand...
Thank, plenty of ideas there, but mathematics is not part of my nature. But I believe that maths describes a real form, and an electron is real, so its form or shape must be visualizable [in a visual way] - at least logically it should, I think.
 
The cells in your body are too small to see, as are bacteria and viruses, DNA, metal atoms, etc. But the proper equipment makes them visible. Owing to the wavelength of light and the uncertainty principle, electrons are not just too small, they are “unseeable.”
 
You said:
Thats all interesting. And it is the arbitrary terms for properties I am talking about. Spin, or handedness is a property with two? opposites. But I’d like to know, two opposite whats? What is it that is opposite to its opposite. If it has opposites then it has structure, no?.
Click to expand...
Spin is a form of angular momentum that comes about from the particle’s inherent magnetic moment. But you can think of it as an electron actually spinning about its axis at a constant rate (never slows or speeds up), much like a top or rolling ball.
 
GEddie said:
The cells in your body are too small to see, as are bacteria and viruses, DNA, metal atoms, etc. But the proper equipment makes them visible. Owing to the wavelength of light and the uncertainty principle, electrons are not just too small, they are “unseeable.”
Click to expand...
I know. But electrons are real, right? So they occupy space/time in their own fashion. So they have shape/properties of form, which makes their behaviour predictable to some extent? So if you had eyes to see you could see a structure, but failing that you ought to be able to see them even if you cannot see them.
 
You said:
Thank, plenty of ideas there, but mathematics is not part of my nature. But I believe that maths describes a real form, and an electron is real, so its form or shape must be visualizable [in a visual way] - at least logically it should, I think.
Click to expand...
No, math does not always describe a real form! That’s one of the reasons why we have physics and chemistry! Experimentation is always needed to validate.

As one of my professors once said, “electrons are real, but they’re irrational” (both literally and mathematically).
 
You said:
I know. But electrons are real, right? So they occupy space/time in their own fashion. So they have shape/properties of form, which makes their behaviour predictable to some extent? So if you had eyes to see you could see a structure, but failing that you ought to be able to see them even if you cannot see them.
Click to expand...
Yes, if you could violate the Heisenberg principle you would see and infinitely small point particle…in theory. It’s better to think of an electron as a wave though.
 
Saint_Macarius said:
No, math does not always describe a real form! That’s one of the reasons why we have physics and chemistry! Experimentation is always needed to validate.

As one of my professors once said, “electrons are real, but they’re irrational” (both literally and mathematically).
Click to expand...
ok, and its isn’t easy to experiment on electrons. But maybe they only seem irrational because you don’t know what they really look like. I’m asking, I suppose if I am to visualize for an experiment that the electron spin is actually an electron spinning, what exactly is the stuff that is moving/spinning and why would it.
 
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