Elephant Abuse?

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I was watching some interesting videos about Elephants painting on Youtube, but after I was done and read the comments, some people were saying they beat the Elephants with bullhooks to teach them to paint. I started wondering, is it ok for these people to beat, and stab these Elephants with bullhooks, to train them? Do they really do that to them? :confused:

Video in question: youtube.com/watch?v=JCzH0Mk5s7s
 
Did they cite a credible source for this assertion?
One comment links this link. I didn’t read the link myself. Nor have I heard of the website, One Green Planet.

Here is the link the guy supplied. It seems to have some agenda behind it however. I could be wrong though. onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/why-making-an-elephant-paint-is-cruel-not-cute/?utm_source=Green+Monster+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=4665104c90-NEWSLETTER_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bbf62ddf34-4665104c90-102164937
 
I was watching some interesting videos about Elephants painting on Youtube, but after I was done and read the comments, some people were saying they beat the Elephants with bullhooks to teach them to paint. I started wondering, is it ok for these people to beat, and stab these Elephants with bullhooks, to train them? Do they really do that to them? :confused:

Video in question: youtube.com/watch?v=JCzH0Mk5s7s
Some people also don´t like animals in the circus due to animal mistreatment.

I believe it. Personally, after hearing about animals in circuses, I’d rather just watch them on TV or in places where they will be well treated and cared for.

It’s a shame when they are tortured for our entertainment. Some have compared it to a form of slavery.

Some believe they have no feelings, but I believe they do.
 
I didn´t watch the video, because I’m sensitive. I’m pretty sure if I see that, it’ll stick in my mind all day, possibly for days, causing me to feel bad about something I may not be able to change.

I won’t go to the circus, though.
 
Believe it. Elephants being beaten with bullhooks to perform is well documented in photos and videos. On one Tonight Show episode, for example, Fallon had an elephant with two “trainers”, who tried to hide the bullhooks behind them. You had to have been blind to have not seen them.

For those of you who don’t know what a bullhook is…


And here’s what they do to baby elephants with it to “train” them in Ringling Bros. Circus…

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/de...hash/22/48/elephants peta_0.jpg?itok=s_0FXdha

The Tonight Show…

youtube.com/watch?v=_NDPJp7XDew

Please don’t support this type of “entertainment”. It is animal abuse and it is unacceptable and immoral. For the record, One Green Planet is a credible site. Their so-called “agenda” includes concern for the environment, animal welfare and veganism. (They have super recipes!)
 
I was watching some interesting videos about Elephants painting on Youtube, but after I was done and read the comments, some people were saying they beat the Elephants with bullhooks to teach them to paint. I started wondering, is it ok for these people to beat, and stab these Elephants with bullhooks, to train them? Do they really do that to them? :confused:

Video in question: youtube.com/watch?v=JCzH0Mk5s7s
The Church teaching about animals:

CCC 2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

CCC 2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
 
Some people also don´t like animals in the circus due to animal mistreatment.

I believe it. Personally, after hearing about animals in circuses, I’d rather just watch them on TV or in places where they will be well treated and cared for.

It’s a shame when they are tortured for our entertainment. Some have compared it to a form of slavery.

Some believe they have no feelings, but I believe they do.
I agree. I do not go to the circus because of their level of cruelty to animals. Zoos have become much more enriching for animals (though not as great as a sanctuary, I admit!), as most of them are rescued (the crazy thing is…they are rescued from HUMAN owners a lot of the time!).

I would think that cruelty to animals is a sin.
 
Believe it. Elephants being beaten with bullhooks to perform is well documented in photos and videos. On one Tonight Show episode, for example, Fallon had an elephant with two “trainers”, who tried to hide the bullhooks behind them. You had to have been blind to have not seen them.

Please don’t support this type of “entertainment”. It is animal abuse and it is unacceptable and immoral. For the record, One Green Planet is a credible site. Their so-called “agenda” includes concern for the environment, animal welfare and veganism. (They have super recipes!)
This is so disgusting, the images are so hard to bear. I can’t see any type of cruelty to animals or children, it is just too much for me. I pray that all of this abuse comes to an end.
 
This is so disgusting, the images are so hard to bear. I can’t see any type of cruelty to animals or children, it is just too much for me. I pray that all of this abuse comes to an end.
Amen. I sincerely apologize if the pictures are difficult but we must raise awareness to this problem. Trust me when I tell you that these pics are mild. Sadly, much abuse is not reported. The abuse that is reported is not kept in any type of national database so actual numbers are difficult to ascertain. As awareness grows, however, the numbers are expected to rise. :bighanky: We can only pray…
 
CCC 2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
I would note that the Catechism is right to attribute the harm primarily in man. That is viciousness harms the man far more than the animal suffers physically.

What is animal suffering? It seems to me animal suffering is not the same as human suffering. Animals can endure pain differently from man. Animals also often use pain and violence, among themselves, as a means of control.

The condition of needlessly would be pretty narrow. Animals can be made to die for scientific experimentation, food, organic parts and surely lots of other purposes. Animals can be used as objects. Can animals be made to suffer purely for entertainment purposes? If the answer is an absolute no then could you have horse racing where a horse gets whipped? I can’t imagine horse racing to be wrong.
 
Some people in the Philippines still use NEW ivory to make religious icons. I read an article where a local Bishop or Priest actually gave the reporter tips on how to smuggle out ivory icons. Disgusting, but we should pray for these people. Vote with your wallets by not supporting this kind of abuse of God’s creation.
 
I would note that the Catechism is right to attribute the harm primarily in man. That is viciousness harms the man far more than the animal suffers physically.

What is animal suffering? It seems to me animal suffering is not the same as human suffering. Animals can endure pain differently from man. Animals also often use pain and violence, among themselves, as a means of control.
While I wholeheartedly agree that human suffering and animal suffering are not the same thing, what does “enduring pain differently” mean? Also, humans use pain and violence as a means of control amongst themselves as well. Don’t know why you’re suggesting that just non-human animals do that. 🤷

As to your latter question:
The condition of needlessly would be pretty narrow. Animals can be made to die for scientific experimentation, food, organic parts and surely lots of other purposes. Animals can be used as objects. Can animals be made to suffer purely for entertainment purposes? If the answer is an absolute no then could you have horse racing where a horse gets whipped? I can’t imagine horse racing to be wrong.
I’m not sure how narrow it is, but certainly we can agree that it has to mean something. If the catechism entry didn’t include anything that men might do, then there would be no need for the entry to exist. Therefore, it must include *something. *
 
I would note that the Catechism is right to attribute the harm primarily in man. That is viciousness harms the man far more than the animal suffers physically.

What is animal suffering? It seems to me animal suffering is not the same as human suffering. Animals can endure pain differently from man. Animals also often use pain and violence, among themselves, as a means of control.

The condition of needlessly would be pretty narrow. Animals can be made to die for scientific experimentation, food, organic parts and surely lots of other purposes. Animals can be used as objects. Can animals be made to suffer purely for entertainment purposes? If the answer is an absolute no then could you have horse racing where a horse gets whipped? I can’t imagine horse racing to be wrong.
The section of the CCC dealing with animals does **not **say that the harm done to man spiritually by abusing an animal is greater than the harm done to an animal. To my knowledge, the Church has never made such a statement. Trust me, I would have been told of it a long ago on this forum had it been made.

The only difference between human and animal suffering in my mind would be that animals do not understand the *concept *of suffering i.e. the dog being beaten is not thinking “What I’m feeling must be called ‘suffering’”. Your claim that “animals can endure pain differently than man” is without biological basis. Animals having the same type neural structures as humans will experience pain in a similar fashion.

I cannot comment on your idea that animals “use pain and violence etc.” unless you can elaborate on your meaning.

The idea of using animals for entertainment will come to an end soon, and that will include the “sport of kings”. It is not only the whipping that harms the horse, but injuries and disease also. Here are some stats…
At a rate of 2.00 fatalities per 1,000 starts, two thoroughbred racehorses die (on average) every day in North America. That incidence rate is also higher than it was in 1992, when it was 1.60 fatalities per 1,000 starts. Neither of those rates include training fatalities. In states that track training fatalities, training accounts for nearly a third of the total fatalities. That would mean three thoroughbred racehorses die every day from training and racing combined.
(emphasis mine)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racehorse_injuries

We have only to remember the tragic deaths of Ruffian in 1975 and Barbaro (a local hero to us here in Philly) in 2006 to realize that things must change and soon. As it stands, racing is unacceptable and immoral, as it is both **harmful **and needless.

Animals are not just objects for humans to use. They are other of God’s children, made from the depth of His kind and bounteous heart. You cite 2418 of the CCC, but what about paragraph 2416?
Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless Him and give Him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
They are created by God and given the breath of life with a soul. They “bless Him and give Him glory”. Most humans do not do as much…
 
I have to agree with NeedsMercy about horse racing, for the most part. It’s not inherently cruel–not at all. But there’s so much within the racing industry that’s needlessly cruel and corrupt. It’s really a shame.
 
While I wholeheartedly agree that human suffering and animal suffering are not the same thing, what does “enduring pain differently” mean? Also, humans use pain and violence as a means of control amongst themselves as well. Don’t know why you’re suggesting that just non-human animals do that. 🤷
The physiology of certain animals seems to make them able to endure greater blows than man. A dog can hit his head on something and not be moved whereas a man would be. A horse can take a whip and not be moved whereas a man would be.

Yes, man also uses violence to control. Almost no one suggests we should not use violence to control man. I just mention animals because we know from observing them in nature that they also use violence. It is natural to an animal to use violence. So it would not be unnatural for a man to use violence, at least certain forms and to some degree, on an animal.
I’m not sure how narrow it is, but certainly we can agree that it has to mean something. If the catechism entry didn’t include anything that men might do, then there would be no need for the entry to exist. Therefore, it must include *something. *
I agree needless here must mean something. It seems to me that without elaboration the statement is not all that helpful. There are a few places in the catechism that are also in need of elaboration to be helpful. I’m not criticizing the catechism. It is just that moral matters are complex.
The section of the CCC dealing with animals does **not **say that the harm done to man spiritually by abusing an animal is greater than the harm done to an animal. To my knowledge, the Church has never made such a statement. Trust me, I would have been told of it a long ago on this forum had it been made.
I don’t know what statements the church has made. But it seems a reasonable deduction considering the soul of man is immortal and the soul of animals has traditionally not been considered immortal.
Animals are not just objects for humans to use. They are other of God’s children, made from the depth of His kind and bounteous heart. You cite 2418 of the CCC, but what about paragraph 2416?

They are created by God and given the breath of life with a soul. They “bless Him and give Him glory”. Most humans do not do as much…
I don’t see why animals are not objects for man to use. Using people as objects is wrong. Using animals as objects is not wrong. It seems to me most people when they think of animal abuse think of larger mammals that they are fond of. But if we are going to be consistent all animals have souls as do all plants. Am I abusing the grass when I walk on it? Am I abusing a tree when a cut a limb because I want more sunlight in my house? Am I abusing an ant when I step on him when walking?
 
The physiology of certain animals seems to make them able to endure greater blows than man. A dog can hit his head on something and not be moved whereas a man would be. A horse can take a whip and not be moved whereas a man would be.
Respectfully, Exnihilo, horses are extremely sensitive. I have more than 40 years of experience with them, and I’ve never met a physically insensitive horse. Some cold blood (draft horse) breeds are less thin skinned than the lighter riding breeds, but they still would be greatly stung by a whip. If someone whips a horse and he doesn’t move, it’s not from lack of sensitivity; they’re complex, extremely perceptive (like Balaam’s ***— I sometimes will trust my horse’s perceptions and sixth sense over my own awareness) and emotional animals so a number of reasons can make them not move despite feeling pain.

Edit: that’s Balaam’s donkey:D
 
The physiology of certain animals seems to make them able to endure greater blows than man. A dog can hit his head on something and not be moved whereas a man would be. A horse can take a whip and not be moved whereas a man would be.
This may be true for a turtle and being smacked on his shell, and the like, but for the most part, I see no scientific basis for this. When you see a dog “not be[ing] moved” after being hit on the head, you see a dog that has been hit before. He has essentially given up trying to defend himself. Try hitting an unfamiliar (or even a familiar) German Shepherd and see what happens. And horses are trained to be desensitized to the whip; that is, not to react. It doesn’t mean it hurts any less.
Yes, man also uses violence to control. Almost no one suggests we should not use violence to control man. I just mention animals because we know from observing them in nature that they also use violence. It is natural to an animal to use violence. So it would not be unnatural for a man to use violence, at least certain forms and to some degree, on an animal.
Perhaps you should further define “control” and the intent behind such “control”. An animal does not use violence to harm another animal with the sole intent of harming them. They kill for food and survival because they have to. *There is no other recourse for them. * A cat cannot eat vegetables; he must kill the mouse. Two toms fighting over territory in an alley cannot talk it out calmly at the peace table. They bite and scratch. They are incapable of abstract, conceptual thought and are therefore incapable of sin. Humans, OTOH, do not need to eat animals, wear animal products or use animals for entertainment. Much scientific experimentation may now be done with tissue samples, or cadavers, making the use of living animals unnecessary. The situations are clearly not the same.
I agree needless here must mean something. It seems to me that without elaboration the statement is not all that helpful. There are a few places in the catechism that are also in need of elaboration to be helpful. I’m not criticizing the catechism. It is just that moral matters are complex.
Yes and no. Yes, this particular segment in the CCC is in dire need of elaboration, but, no, the meaning of “needless” seems fairly straightforward to me.
I don’t know what statements the church has made. But it seems a reasonable deduction considering the soul of man is immortal and the soul of animals has traditionally not been considered immortal.
The key word here is “tradition”. The nature of the animal soul is regarded as “material” as described by Aquinas in Summa Theologica. So, it has been Church tradition to say that animal souls are not immortal since the 13th century. She has not been interested to date in revamping her “tradition” based on the current science. Note that (1) the nature of the animal soul is not explicitly spelled out in the CCC and (2) Summa Theologica is not doctrine.
I don’t see why animals are not objects for man to use. Using people as objects is wrong. Using animals as objects is not wrong. It seems to me most people when they think of animal abuse think of larger mammals that they are fond of. But if we are going to be consistent all animals have souls as do all plants. Am I abusing the grass when I walk on it? Am I abusing a tree when a cut a limb because I want more sunlight in my house? Am I abusing an ant when I step on him when walking?
Animals are **not **objects. They are not rocks. **Unlike plants, they are sentient beings. ** The think, feel, communicate and experience pain. They reproduce, have families and form societal groups. More importantly, animals have souls created by God. They have arisen from His love. They are part spirit (in the eyes of the Church, while here on earth only) and “praise Him and give Him glory”. Are you abusing an ant when you walk on him? No, unless you did it with the express intent of killing him needlessly. You see, Catholic vegans are consistent. 🙂
 
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