Eli Eli lama Sabachthani

  • Thread starter Thread starter SonSearcher
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SonSearcher

Guest
Just watched the Passion for the first time. Two questions.
  1. Why does he say Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani from the cross just prior to expiring? (my God my God why have you forsaken me)
  2. I have heard that mystical experiences of a particular Saint were consulted to depict portions of scenes from that movie. (for example the scene with Christ crawling onto his own cross):confused:
 
SonSearcher said:
Just watched the Passion for the first time. Two questions.
  1. Why does he say Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani from the cross just prior to expiring? (my God my God why have you forsaken me)
  2. I have heard that mystical experiences of a particular Saint were consulted to depict portions of scenes from that movie. (for example the scene with Christ crawling onto his own cross):confused:
Click to expand...
  1. Our Lord was quoting Psalm 22 (read the Psalm; it is a synopsis of His Passion). Always amazed me that He had the presence of mind to quote that while He was in such agony.
  2. Not a saint. Maria Valtorta. Some consider her a mystic. I am not sure, TBH.
 
#1. It is a Psalm and the fulfillment of it. Perhaps His dark night…
 
Jesus says this because at that very moment He had taken on ALL of the sins of ALL who had ever lived or would ever live. In other words, He took the punishment WE deserve, which was to be totally separated from God at that moment. It must have been indescribably horrible for Him.
 
Veronica97 said:
Jesus says this because at that very moment He had taken on ALL of the sins of ALL who had ever lived or would ever live. In other words, He took the punishment WE deserve, which was to be totally separated from God at that moment. It must have been indescribably horrible for Him.
Click to expand...
Aren’t you actually describing the Protestant doctrine of penal substitution? :confused:

Dug up this from my files.
 
Trebor135 said:
Aren’t you actually describing the Protestant doctrine of penal substitution? :confused:

Dug up this from my files.
Click to expand...
It’s hardly original to the Protestants. St. Anselm is actually the best known old source. He predates the Reformation by centuries.
 
God cannot be separated from God. This view is an implicit Nestorianism (or hyper-Nestorianism, perhaps), supposing that Jesus of Nazareth the man could be separated from God while the Logos of course was not, since He is God Himself. No, Jesus of Nazareth the man was and is personally God Himself.

I think the best explanation is a citation of the entirety of Psalm 22, not excluding a special emphasis on the verses Jesus actually quoted, indicating the extremity of His suffering.
 
Actually she’s Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich now, though at the time the movie came out she had not yet been beatified.
 
SonCatcher said:
It’s hardly original to the Protestants. St. Anselm is actually the best known old source. He predates the Reformation by centuries.
Click to expand...
But doesn’t the Catholic Church consider penal substitution to be a heresy, proposing instead that Jesus turned away God’s wrath from the world rather than taking it upon himself?
 
Jesus could not reunite with His Father until He had officially and completed severed ties. No homecoming without a going away, so to speak.

Is that not His very suffering – the real suffering – of hell itself? Separation from the Father? To signify paying the price for sin, then overcoming it?
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Jesus could not reunite with His Father until He had officially and completed severed ties. No homecoming without a going away, so to speak.

Is that not His very suffering – the real suffering – of hell itself? Separation from the Father? To signify paying the price for sin, then overcoming it?
Click to expand...
Wow. Hadn’t looked at it that way before. Thanks.👍

Now teach me contemplation, please:)
 
Trebor135 said:
But doesn’t the Catholic Church consider penal substitution to be a heresy, proposing instead that Jesus turned away God’s wrath from the world rather than taking it upon himself?
Click to expand...
I haven’t heard that it was positively declared heretical. I don’t subscribe to it so am not particularly concerned either way. If such a declaration had been made, it would have likely been during or after the Reformation, so St. Anselm would not have been required to recant.

Still, I have never heard it come up as a difficulty in reconciling Protestants.
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Jesus could not reunite with His Father until He had officially and completed severed ties. No homecoming without a going away, so to speak.

Is that not His very suffering – the real suffering – of hell itself? Separation from the Father? To signify paying the price for sin, then overcoming it?
Click to expand...
God cannot separate from God, and there would be no justice in Him doing so even if it were possible.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
God cannot separate from God, and there would be no justice in Him doing so even if it were possible.
Click to expand...
Then what does it mean for God to “abandon” God, in the context of the thread subject?

Since it was while Jesus’s physical body was still alive, I’d say the mystical abandonment preceded the loss of the body. Right?
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Then what does it mean for God to “abandon” God, in the context of the thread subject?

Since it was while Jesus’s physical body was still alive, I’d say the mystical abandonment preceded the loss of the body. Right?
Click to expand...
I concede that it’s a difficult and mysterious subject. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. Who can really declare exactly what Jesus in His human nature felt and thought at that terrible moment? Certainly I wouldn’t exclude the possibility of feelings of abandonment, and even emotions similar to those felt during despair, though of course He would not have committed the sin of despair itself.

However, I feel much more comfortable rejecting interpretations that we can know to be false, such as any interpretation that would break up the unity of the Godhead or of the person of Christ.
 
SonCatcher said:
I haven’t heard that it was positively declared heretical.
Click to expand...
If only I could recall where I got the idea…
I don’t subscribe to it so am not particularly concerned either way.
Click to expand...
👍
If such a declaration had been made, it would have likely been during or after the Reformation, so St. Anselm would not have been required to recant.
Click to expand...
Indeed.
Still, I have never heard it come up as a difficulty in reconciling Protestants.
Click to expand...
You might be interested in a debate that can be accessed from this page, between Nick the Catholic apologist (he goes by the name Catholic Dude on CAF) and TurretinFan the Calvinist apologist.
 
*Jesus says this because at that very moment He had taken on ALL of the sins of ALL who had ever lived or would ever live. In other words, He took the punishment WE deserve, which was to be totally separated from God at that moment. It must have been indescribably horrible for Him.
*

I found this on Catholic Answers. catholic.com/quickquestions/do-jesus-words-from-the-cross-my-god-my-god-why-have-you-forsaken-me-mean-that-god-th

It explains that while the Father had NOT abandoned Jesus, He FELT as though He had; in other words, He experienced the PAIN that humans experience when they are separated from God by sin. So I apologize for my earlier error. That’s why I’m here on CAF–to learn all I can about the Catholic Faith! Thank you for setting me straight! 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top