Eli Eli lama Sabachthani

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When Jesus quoted Psalm 22 from the Cross, the Jews who had him crucified would’ve been stopped in their tracks here him, for they knew this Psalm well.

This is fulfilling the prophecies of the OT and many Jews came to know, that he is the Christ.

Jim
 
You might be interested in a debate that can be accessed from this page, between Nick the Catholic apologist (he goes by the name Catholic Dude on CAF) and TurretinFan the Calvinist apologist.
Actually, I recall a writing by then-Cardinal Ratzinger (hooray, Benedict XVI!) soundly refuting Anselm’s theory. Unfortunately, it was linked from another Catholic board that has since closed, so I lost the link (I did find a blog that discusses it here, so that will have to do until the original is linked).

Still, because it is a prevailing theory that does not require repudiation of the other, I don’t see any value in debating that point with someone I am trying to bring fully into the Church. We’ll continue to debate it within the Catholic community until either atonement is defined doctrinally or Jesus returns. I just think that Protestants should join one of the Catholic “debate teams.”
 
Actually, I recall a writing by then-Cardinal Ratzinger (hooray, Benedict XVI!) soundly refuting Anselm’s theory. Unfortunately, it was linked from another Catholic board that has since closed, so I lost the link (I did find a blog that discusses it here, so that will have to do until the original is linked).
That’s very interesting. Thanks for the link–one hopes the full response to the Anselmine theory by Pope Benedict XVI will indeed be located.
Still, because it is a prevailing theory that does not require repudiation of the other, I don’t see any value in debating that point with someone I am trying to bring fully into the Church. We’ll continue to debate it within the Catholic community until either atonement is defined doctrinally or Jesus returns. I just think that Protestants should join one of the Catholic “debate teams.”
Right. 🙂
 
Good discussion so far guys. I found this on an Byzantine Catholic forum. It suggests something very simple as an explanation.

During that time it was typical for a Rabbi to instruct his followers by quoting the first line of a psalm. If the followers were up to snuff so to say they could either recall the psalm in their minds or out loud and instruction would continue because psalms instruct on many different human experiences. This statement Jesus cries out is the start of Psalm 22, if you continue on to read the entirety of the psalm you might get goosebumps because Christ seems to be instructing even in the throes of death. The psalm is fulfilled with him.

It is reminiscent of his taking the scroll at the synagogue and teaching with authority to the crowds amazement.

Now myself being a Roman Catholic this might be heresy and I might be totally off base. But it seems a more reasonable fit than arguing if God separated from himself or not. But of course I could be wrong.:o
 
Good discussion so far guys. I found this on an Byzantine Catholic forum. It suggests something very simple as an explanation.

During that time it was typical for a Rabbi to instruct his followers by quoting the first line of a psalm. If the followers were up to snuff so to say they could either recall the psalm in their minds or out loud and instruction would continue because psalms instruct on many different human experiences. This statement Jesus cries out is the start of Psalm 22, if you continue on to read the entirety of the psalm you might get goosebumps because Christ seems to be instructing even in the throes of death. The psalm is fulfilled with him.

It is reminiscent of his taking the scroll at the synagogue and teaching with authority to the crowds amazement.

Now myself being a Roman Catholic this might be heresy and I might be totally off base. But it seems a more reasonable fit than arguing if God separated from himself or not. But of course I could be wrong.:o
Your right.
 
2. Not a saint. Maria Valtorta. Some consider her a mystic. I am not sure, TBH.

Maria Valtorta is most certainly a mystic.

Fr. Gabriel Roschini, O.S.M., world-renowned Mariologist, decorated professor at the Marianum Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome, Consultor of the Holy Office, who wrote over 130 traditional/orthodox books about Our Lady, said:

“Maria Valtorta is one of the eighteen greatest mystics of all time.”

For more details, check out an e-book I wrote about Maria Valtorta and the Poem of the Man-God which www.mariavaltortawebring.com has hosted on their home page for download here:

Poem of the Man-God Research Document (PDF)

This e-book is a comprehensive and well-researched guide to everything a Catholic could want to know about Maria Valtorta’s writings, including its importance, its history, its ecclesiastical status, how it compares to other revelations, the 14 proofs of its divine origin, its critics and defenses, and much more!

Also check out the Maria Valtorta e-book trailer here:

TRAILER (full-length) – Maria Valtorta Research Document

As Blessed Gabriel Allegra (who was just beatified by the Pope in September 2012) said:

“I assure you that the Poem of the Man-God immensely surpasses whatever descriptions — I do not say of mine, because I do not know how to write — but of any other writer… It is a work which makes one grow in the knowledge and love of the Lord Jesus and of His Holy Mother… I hold that the work demands a supernatural origin.”

Blessed Gabriel Allegra, O.F.M. was an outspoken and avid long-time supporter of Maria Valtorta and spent the latter years of his life studying, promoting, and defending the Poem of the Man-God (Maria Valtorta’s major work). You can read his testimony online here:

Blessed Gabriel Allegra’s Critiques, Notes, and Letters on Maria Valtorta’s The Poem of the Man-God

Make sure to click on “Go to Part I”, “Go to Part II”, etc. at the bottom of the screen at the above link.
 
Jesus could not reunite with His Father until He had officially and completed severed ties. No homecoming without a going away, so to speak.

Is that not His very suffering – the real suffering – of hell itself? Separation from the Father? To signify paying the price for sin, then overcoming it?
The chief suffering of Hell is eternal separation from God.
 
The chief suffering of Hell is eternal separation from God.
So then Jesus really didn’t suffer when He went to hell?

Why then, if not in agony, did He cry out, “Eli Eli lama Sabachthani”?
 
Correct.

Mel Gibson read the book, “The Delorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ,” while in rehab and had a conversion experience while there. He promised the Lord if he would come into his life, he would make a movie based on the book, which is what he did.

The book and movie is based on the dreams of Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich. It’s dream literature so I has to be understood in that context. Much of what is told by Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich, would be questionable if not inaccurate from a historical perspective.

Jim
 
So then Jesus really didn’t suffer when He went to hell?

Why then, if not in agony, did He cry out, “Eli Eli lama Sabachthani”?
Jesus did not suffer in Hell.

ARTICLE 5
“HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

CCC 632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.

CCC 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

CCC 634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

CCC 635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”
 
I’m not a Roman Catholic but I thought the following from Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa in the 1400s is a helpful:
[33]…In its intensity of pain [His death] enfolded within
itself the penalty of death of all those who were to be freed [from
eternal death]. Thus, each individual who was rightly supposed to suffer
death because of his transgression of, or disobedience to, the Law
makes satisfaction in and through the death of Christ, even if [that individual]
ought to have suffered the penalty of torment in Hell. Therefore,
the intensity of the sorrow of Christ (who bore our sorrows36 and
who took upon Himself the sentence of condemnation and who fastened
the handwriting to the Cross, 38where He made satisfaction) was
so great that no one could have suffered it except Him in whom there
was most perfect love—which love was able to be present only in the
Son of God. Hence, whatever punishment is either written about or
thought of is less than that satisfaction-making punishment that Christ
suffered. (pg 242 “Moreover, For Our Sake He was Crucified”)
jasper-hopkins.info/SermonsCCLXXVI-CCXCIII.pdf
And P.Kreeft and Fr. Tacelli expound this same point well:
“It seems impossible for God to solve the dilemma of justice versus mercy, but we know from the Gospel account how he does it. The problem is that he cannot, it seems, do both; he must either exact the just penalty for sin – death – or not. Mercy seems a relaxation of justice, and justice a refusal of mercy. Either you punish or you don’t. The laws of logic seem to prevent God from being both just and merciful at the same time… God solves this dilemma on Calvary. Full justice is done: sin is punished with the very punishment of hell itself – being forsaken of God (Mt 27:46). But mercy and forgiveness are also enacted. The trick is to give us the mercy and him the justice” (Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli, p. 127).
One correction of previous comments I’ve seen on this thread: The Catholic and Protestant doctrine of penal substitution properly understood does not teach that Christ ever ceases to be perfectly one with the Father.

Penal substitution simply affirms what the Scriptures teach–1. that Christ bore our sin and received from His Father the punishment thereof in our stead (Is 53:10a "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him (“crush Him” in the Hebrew)).—And Christ’s experience of being forsaken of His Father/hell was the ultimate “crushing” He received from His Father.

At the same time–penal substitution affirms with Scripture that Christ always remained united and loved by His Father even in the darkest moment of His Passion and thus may be correctly said to have never “experience reprobation as though He Himself had sinned”–as CCC 603 notes (citing John 8:46 in reference to Christ’s sinlessness–in the Vatican online version).

As Calvin himself notes regarding the Passion:
We do not, however, insinuate that God was ever hostile to him or angry with him. How could he be angry with the beloved Son, with whom his soul was well pleased? or how could he have appeased the Father by his intercession for others if He were hostile to himself? But this we say, that he bore the weight of the divine anger, that, smitten and afflicted, he experienced all the signs of an angry and avenging God. Hence Hilary argues, that to this descent we owe our exemption from death. Nor does he dissent from this view in other passages, as when he says, “The cross, death, hell, are our life.” And again, “The Son of God is in hell, but man is brought back to heaven.” (Institutes II.xvi.11.)
…
Though feeling, as it were, forsaken of God, he did not cease in the slightest degree to confide in his goodness. (Institutes II.xvi.12)
All I can say is…how all these amazing truths of our Salvation in Christ fit together is a mystery we’ll never fully understand this side of Heaven.

God Bless,
W.A. Scott

p.s. Don’t know if I’ll have time to comment further (I’ve already taken far more time than I should have to write this post)
 
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