Elijah

[thomas_jd]

Ahhhh, but at least you’ve come to understand that I’m not trying to just “stir things up”, eh?

I’ve used the Navarre and the Ignatius Study Bible to back up my claims. I’ll admit that the Church is unsure of these natures, so I’ll respectfully accept that neither of us can call the other one “a complete raving lunatic”.

BTW, why couldn’t St. Paul have been caught up into heaven? Wasn’t St. John caught up into heaven in Revelation? Why couldn’t St. Paul have been"

I never said you were raving. We came to a understanding. There are many instances regarding ecstasies in private revalation. I Think neither were brought to heaven before thier time. Again , later.

 

[NotWorthy]

I never said you were raving. We came to a understanding. There are many instances regarding ecstasies in private revalation. I Think neither were brought to heaven before thier time. Again , later.

I notice you denied called me “raving”, but you were silent about “complete” and “lunatic”… :tsktsk:

So St. John wasn’t caught up into heaven to witness the heavenly liturgy?!?!? I thought that was pretty well understood!

 

[thomas_jd]

I notice you denied called me “raving”, but you were silent about “complete” and “lunatic”… :tsktsk:

So St. John wasn’t caught up into heaven to witness the heavenly liturgy?!?!? I thought that was pretty well understood!/QU
A little jest after all this hard work. My opinion is that Mary ,the Mother of God , was brought to Heaven many times in her life. This was acquired through reading “The City of God”. I believe that She was the singular person called before God the Father. Only She had charge of His Son, and I can not prove this but this is my belief.
There are many times people have claimed they received a visit from Our Lord or Our Lady,
and I am not questioning this, but again I believe only Mary would be so honored.

 

[NotWorthy]

A little jest after all this hard work. My opinion is that Mary ,the Mother of God , was brought to Heaven many times in her life. This was acquired through reading “The City of God”. I believe that She was the singular person called before God the Father. Only She had charge of His Son, and I can not prove this but this is my belief.
There are many times people have claimed they received a visit from Our Lord or Our Lady,
and I am not questioning this, but again I believe only Mary would be so honored.

So where was St. John called up to in order to see the heavenly liturgy?

 

[Mailman]

As thistle pointed out, there is a difference between ascended and assumed.

2 Kings 2:1
“And it came to pass, when the LORD God would TAKE UP (Hebrew, alah) Elijah into heaven…”

2 Kings 2:11
“… and Elijah WENT UP (Hebrew, alah) by a whirlwind into heaven.”

Strong’s Dictionary says of the Hebrew word, alah: “A primitive root; to ascend…: arise (up); (cause to) ascend up, bring (up), (cause to) burn, carry up, cast up, climb up, (cause to, make to) come (up)….”

So, Elijah did indeed ASCEND into “heaven” according to the Scriptures. But Elijah did not ascend by his own power because it was the Lord God who took up Elijah into “heaven” (2 Kings 2:1) by a whirlwind (v. 11). But the fact is, he DID ascend.

Now, was Elijah “assumed into heaven” – that is, taken up bodily into the heaven of God’s throne without having to suffer death? The Bible does not say so. What it says is that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” and that about ten years later a letter from him was being sent to the new Jewish king, indicating that Elijah was merely taken to another place on earth and not into the heavenly throne of God. And since the Bible clearly says all human beings die – “it is appointed unto men once to die” – then Elijah must have died later in life.

Saying Elijah was assumed into heaven is mere speculation.

 

[Mailman]

I must of missed your question. The bible describes his chariot ride and no more.The place of waiting for the deceased before the resurrection was hell. “was crucified died and was buried, He decended into hell and on the third day He ascended into Heaven” etc per Apostles Creed.
The hell mentioned in the Creed is the place assigned to all in anticipation of the opening of the gates of Heaven. Moses, St Joseph, David, etc. waited there.
This hell means the absense of God as opposed to the hell inhabited by the devil and his fallen brothers. After the resurrection Elijah gained entrance into heaven.

Are you saying the place of waiting now [for the deceased] is not “hell” anymore – that this was true only before Christ’s resurrection? But Revelation 20:13 tells us that during the great white throne judgment, a time following the “long time reign” of Christ [as some would want to call Christ’s millennial reign] – a time yet future – “the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL [HADES] delivered up the dead which were in them….” Clearly, this place called hades/sheol is still the place of waiting long after Christ’s resurrection.

The Hebrew equivalent for the Greek hades (translated “hell” in most texts) is sheol:

Psa. 16:10: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [sheol]….”
Acts 2:27: “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [hades]….”

The Bible says all human beings, even the wicked, go to sheol/hades at death: “The wicked shall be turned into hell [sheol]…” (Psa. 9:17). “Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell [sheol]: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them” (Psa. 55:15). “All go into one place: all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Eccl. 3:20).

But what is this place called sheol in the OT and hades in the NT? It is nothing more than the grave or the place of burial of the deceased. Sheol is translated “the grave” 31 times in the King James translation of the OT and that many times as “hell.” In the NT, hades is translated “the grave” in 1 Cor. 15:55: “O death, where is thy sting? O grave [hades], where is thy victory?”

When Christ died, He went to the grave. His body was placed in a tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea. The grave, however, could be anywhere on earth where the dead lies waiting for the resurrection. Those who are lost at sea, for example, have the bottom of the ocean as their graves. This is why Revelation says “the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [or the grave, in this case the sea itself] delivered up the dead which were in them.”

The Bible further tells us that the dead – those in hades/sheol – have no consciousness. “For the living know that they shall die: but THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING” (Eccl. 9:5). “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth [goes to his grave]; in that very day” – on that very day he goes to the grave – “his thoughts perish” (Ps. 146:4).

 

[Mailman]

Wasn’t it Christ’s Resurrection that brought in the Kingdom? His Sacrifice was necessary for this, but Christ conquered Death on Easter morning, not Good Friday.

To take it a few steps further, although the gates were open, there was still no “general admission” until Pentecost, where Baptism was given to the Church.

You still seem to link “lack of sin” with heaven. That’s not the case, for we could all earn our way into heaven. Christ is What is necessary to get to heaven. And I am not willing to speak for Him on this matter. I don’t know that Job was not in heaven or John the Baptist, and I don’t think the Church has any official stance on this (I’d be willing to be learn if anyone has this teaching).

You seem to imply that the Kingdom and heaven are one and the same. They are not. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “the ‘kingdom’ means not so much a goal to be attained or a place… it is rather a tone of mind, it stands for an influence which must permeate men’s minds if they would be one with Him and attain His ideals….”

The Prophet Daniel’s vision proves beyond doubt that heaven is not the kingdom spoken of by Christ. Daniel recalls: “I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days and they brought him near before him…” Daniel saw [in vision] TWO Personages in heaven – Jesus, the Son and God the Father. Jesus was brought near to the Father and — “And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a KINGDOM, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom, that which shall not be destroyed” (Dan 7:13). Notice that the Kingdom was given in heaven by the Father to the Son clearly showing that the Kingdom is not the heaven of God’s throne.

The Scriptures speak of the Kingdom as something Jesus is preparing for us in heaven and for which He will be bringing back with Him on His return in power and glory. Jesus said, “I will go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2) and where Jesus went is the heaven of God’s throne. What He prepared there He will bring back to earth as a reward for the faithful: “And, Behold, I come quickly; and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Rev. 22:12). At the appointed time – “When the Son of Man shall come in his glory” (Matt. 25:31) – Jesus will say, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU from the foundation of the world” (Mat. 25:31-34). Jesus here could not have been referring to heaven as the kingdom since heaven is already there and had been in existence even before the first human being was created.

If we confine ourselves to the biblical revelation and not engage in unnecessary speculation, we can never say our reward is a place in heaven, for nowhere in the entire Scriptures is heaven promised as the reward of the saved. When Jesus Christ appeared on earth, He never once said anything about human beings going to heaven. Have you ever wondered why Jesus never said something like, “If you want to go to heaven, do this and that”? Even the Jews at the time knew the God of their fathers never promised heaven as a reward for the righteous. That’s why we do not find anyone asking Jesus: “How can I go to heaven?” Rather, the question had always been, “How can I have eternal life?”

The Scriptures are full of information about how we may have eternal life, but none about how we may get to heaven. The Jews knew about this and Jesus acknowledged that truth. He said: “Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life…” (John 5:39).

 

[Mailman]

Yes this is right, Elijah never died. As scripture says, you don’t have to die to go to heaven, some people will go up there in their flesh and blood bodies (I think there is a scripture that actually says "flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom of heavens). So Elijah when into the sky and then into space where he did not need to breath air (it was a miracle) and then into heaven itself with his physical body. He has been living there ever since and god will soon send him back down to the earth.

May I have the scripture that says you don’t have to die to go to heaven? I can’t even find a scripture that says the saved will go to heaven.

I Cor. 15:50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[NotWorthy]

2 Kings 2:1
“And it came to pass, when the LORD God would TAKE UP (Hebrew, alah) Elijah into heaven…”

2 Kings 2:11
“… and Elijah WENT UP (Hebrew, alah) by a whirlwind into heaven.”

Strong’s Dictionary says of the Hebrew word, alah: “A primitive root; to ascend…: arise (up); (cause to) ascend up, bring (up), (cause to) burn, carry up, cast up, climb up, (cause to, make to) come (up)….”

So, Elijah did indeed ASCEND into “heaven” according to the Scriptures. But Elijah did not ascend by his own power because it was the Lord God who took up Elijah into “heaven” (2 Kings 2:1) by a whirlwind (v. 11). But the fact is, he DID ascend.

Now, was Elijah “assumed into heaven” – that is, taken up bodily into the heaven of God’s throne without having to suffer death? The Bible does not say so. What it says is that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” and that about ten years later a letter from him was being sent to the new Jewish king, indicating that Elijah was merely taken to another place on earth and not into the heavenly throne of God. And since the Bible clearly says all human beings die – “it is appointed unto men once to die” – then Elijah must have died later in life.

Saying Elijah was assumed into heaven is mere speculation.

In our discussion, Thistle was pointing out that, in Catholic-speak, one “Ascends” of their own accord, and one is “Assumed” by the means of others.

 

[NotWorthy]

You seem to imply that the Kingdom and heaven are one and the same. They are not. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “the ‘kingdom’ means not so much a goal to be attained or a place… it is rather a tone of mind, it stands for an influence which must permeate men’s minds if they would be one with Him and attain His ideals….”

Where do I seem to imply that the Kingdom and Heaven are one and the same. God’s Church here on earth is part of the Kingdom. The Kingdom partly resides in all Christians, although (IMO) it fully resides in all saints.

 

[Mailman]

In our discussion, Thistle was pointing out that, in Catholic-speak, one “Ascends” of their own accord, and one is “Assumed” by the means of others.

Yes, I understand that. But an “Assumption” involves something more than just the going to heaven by another’s power. The one “Assumed” also goes to heaven with his/her body [in glorified form] intact. If Elijah was “Assumed”, then he was taken up by God – body and all – into the heaven of God’s throne (I think most even believe Elijah did not die when he was assumed into heaven). What I’m saying is that the Bible does not say that at all. Not only was Elijah not “Assumed” into God’s heavenly throne, he was never taken up there. Not even a part of him [like a soul perhaps?] was brought to heaven.

 

[Mailman]

Where do I seem to imply that the Kingdom and Heaven are one and the same. God’s Church here on earth is part of the Kingdom. The Kingdom partly resides in all Christians, although (IMO) it fully resides in all saints.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I got that impression because you said Christ’s resurrection brought in the Kingdom and then you said later that Christ is what is necessary to get to heaven.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I understand that. But an “Assumption” involves something more than just the going to heaven by another’s power. The one “Assumed” also goes to heaven with his/her body [in glorified form] intact. If Elijah was “Assumed”, then he was taken up by God – body and all – into the heaven of God’s throne (I think most even believe Elijah did not die when he was assumed into heaven). What I’m saying is that the Bible does not say that at all. Not only was Elijah not “Assumed” into God’s heavenly throne, he was never taken up there. Not even a part of him [like a soul perhaps?] was brought to heaven.

I haven’t seen any proof that Elijah wasn’t assumed bodily into heaven. There is also an abundance of opinion around that he did, although nobody is willing to declare authoritatively that he did or did not.

 

[NotWorthy]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I got that impression because you said Christ’s resurrection brought in the Kingdom and then you said later that Christ is what is necessary to get to heaven.

Christ did usher in the Kingdom - a Kingdom in which heaven is a part of. The Kingdom is also partially here with us. The Kingdom will be fully united (the heavenly Jerusalem will be united with the physical world) at the Second Coming.

 

[wmscott]

You are wrong. He did not ascend. He was assumed into Heaven. Only Jesus ascended into Heaven.
Why can’t people see the important difference between the two?

Thanks for catching this thistle, many do not understand the difference or erroneously interchange them.

This is an important distinction.

Only Jesus ascended, this is an action that He initiated by His own will. An act of consciously making the decision to perform this particular action.

The assumption is an action initiated by God’s will that is performed on another e.g. Elijiah and Mary. The action is not an initiated action by the person being assumed.