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Pookie
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A friend and his bible study group are trying to understand how Elijah went to heaven when heaven wasn’t open until after the death of Jesus.
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callmeChris
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Most Catholic scholars and Theologians speculate on this topic as well. A large percentage of them claim that he went into limbo, which from what I know about it is seen as the temporary state of those who, in spite of the personal sins they may have committed, died in the friendship of God, but could not enter Heaven until redemption by Jesus Christ made it possible.
So basically “He (Christ) decesded into hell” as the creed firmly states and welcomed into the Kingdom all those who were in limbo.
So basically “He (Christ) decesded into hell” as the creed firmly states and welcomed into the Kingdom all those who were in limbo.
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Dave_Noonan
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The same questions commonly arise about Enoch (Gn 5:24, Sir 49:14, Heb 11:5) and Moses (Jude 8).
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Todd_Easton
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The ancients conceived of several heavens and so there is some uncertainty as to which “heaven” Elijah was taken up into. In one of his letters, Paul mentions a man he knows who was taken up to “the third heaven,” which Paul also calls “Paradise.” (2 Cor 12:2-3)
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bogeydogg
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Paul is writing to Greeks he is not espousing a belief in more than one Heaven. Augustine said that the Greeks believed that the first heaven is the air around us. The second heaven is the space inhabited by the demons and was between men and gods. The third heaven was the domain of the gods. Paul is saying that in being caught up he was in Heaven with God but he used a terminology which his Greek audience would have been familiar with to express the idea.
God Bless
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Ne_OrangeKnight
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Apparently yes. “The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.” – Matthew 27:52-53
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
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zz912
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Doesn’t mean that Elijah couldn’t have been taken to Heaven based on Jesus’ salvation applied to him. Mary was preserved from Original Sin based on the merits of Jesus before Mary was born, let alone Jesus.
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Ne_OrangeKnight
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I was responding to the broader assertion made by vz71; I don’t claim to know how exactly things worked with Elijah.
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
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Tontodonati
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Todd_Easton
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From Haydock’s commentary on 2 Cor 12:4:
In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. Calmet.
Because the Hebrews believed in three different heavens and because Scripture does not specify which heaven Elijah was taken up into, there is some uncertainty as to which heaven the sacred author meant, whether it was into the sky or to a distant star, or to God in the heaven of heavens. Personally, I think the sacred author merely meant that Elijah was carried up by the whirlwind into the sky until he disappeared from Elisha’s view. It appears that it was commonly held that “Elijah is still alive in some part of the world.” (Haydock’s commentary on Ecclesiasticus xlviii. 10.) I don’t think the sacred author meant that Elijah was carried up by the whirlwind to God in the heaven of heavens.
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BouncingBall
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What about the Transfiguration? That was Moses and Elijah that Jesus spoke to on the mountain, right?
If Elijah is still on earth somewhere, then it stands to reason why they leave an empty chair at Seder.
If Elijah is still on earth somewhere, then it stands to reason why they leave an empty chair at Seder.
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bogeydogg
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Todd you have restated what i already said except in a hebrew context. I was saying that when Paul told his greek audience that he had been caught up to the ‘third Heaven’ he was saying that he was in the Heaven of Heavens. The Greeks would have understood this.
The note about the Hebrew understanding does not contradict this because two of the heavens mentioned are still not where god abides and Paul’s meaning was clearly that he had entered into the presence of God.
As far as Elijah goes I think the clue we have is not that he was caught up but in what. 11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, ***chariots of fire and horses of fire ***separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
I think the meaning here is that Elijah ascended into Heaven on the Chariot Throne of the Almighty which I think is the same that Ezekiel saw as well. That is why I believe Elijah was caught up directly into the Heaven of Heavens.
God Bless
The note about the Hebrew understanding does not contradict this because two of the heavens mentioned are still not where god abides and Paul’s meaning was clearly that he had entered into the presence of God.
As far as Elijah goes I think the clue we have is not that he was caught up but in what. 11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, ***chariots of fire and horses of fire ***separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
I think the meaning here is that Elijah ascended into Heaven on the Chariot Throne of the Almighty which I think is the same that Ezekiel saw as well. That is why I believe Elijah was caught up directly into the Heaven of Heavens.
God Bless
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PJM
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Now that my friend is DEP THINKING and a GREAT question:thumbsup:
The answer lies in terminology.
Your friend is correct in the understanding; however there was no term for a place of joy and Peace; without any pain …[Catholic employ the term: “Limbo”]
I suspect the understanding was in a special hebrew word such as: 4520. sabbatismos sab-bat-is-mos’ from a derivative of 4521; a “sabbatism”, i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):–rest.
From Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon…
And a technical pointl Heaven did not open UNTIL THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS and His Assenssion back into heaven.
God Bless,
Pat
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FaithJoy
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The way I understand it is when one is taken from this world, that person slips into a state where time has no limit, that is,one is in presence of time in itself. Jesus is the alpha and the omega, meaning what He has done, has meaning from the beginning and the end. To be the true alpha and omga, Jesus would have impact on all of time
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PJM
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Understanding what took place requires us to step back and think about anf then acknowledge that God is is “all good things Perfected” can do ANY GOOD THING.
The background of this event is Yahweh God teaching the Hebrew nation about Himself. All the other tribes around them were pagan and serving mutiple Gods. Yahweh was over a protracted period of time; weaning them away from former beliefs and understanding that HE and He Alone was there God. This was accomplished by the “bone and stick” technique. reward and Punishment.
In the process, God wanted it mde clear that it is THE AFTER-LIFE; not the present life that we ought to be working on and for. Elija was a well known; HIGHLY respected holy amn’ a man of GREAT faith. So Yahweh availed Himself of the dual opportunity to reward this good and holy man; and at the same time make evident the FACT of an after life.
**Isa.29: 16 **“You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
**Isa.45: 9 **"Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it,
What are you making'? or Your work has no handles’?Isa.64: 8 Yet, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand.
Some today need similar instruction. That friends is why we are here
God Bless,
Pat
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onlyvoice
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The Hebrews distinguished three different heavens because that’s what their Scriptures (and ours too) reveal. In those same Scriptures is the story of Elijah who, we are told, “went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” But which of the three heavens was being referred to?
The Scriptures quote Jesus as declaring that no one has gone to heaven except Him. Obviously, the “heaven” Jesus was referring to is the third heaven, or the “heaven of heavens” where God abides. This then eliminates the possibility that Elijah was taken up there, leaving only two possibile places where Elijah could have gone to – the first or the second heaven.
Like all human beings, Elijah needed air to live. He could not have gone to the second heaven – the heaven of the stars and moon – because there is no air there. So, the heaven that Elijah went up to must have been the first heaven, the atmosphere above the earth where the clouds are. Interestingly, that is also the only place where a whirlwind can form, since the space above it – the heaven of the stars and moon – is a vacuum.
But what happened to Elijah after he was taken up by the whirlwind? In II Chronicles 21:12-15, is a letter from Elijah to Jehoram, the new Jewish king who succeeded his father Jehoshaphat (the reigning king during Elijah’s ministry). The letter was received by Jehoram about ten years after Elijah was taken up to “heaven.”
The existence of the letter shows that Elijah was still alive somewhere at the time (He must have died later, “For as in Adam, all die…” - I Co. 15:22). It also shows that he was merely brought to another place when God took him up to “heaven” on that whirlwind. Notice the same thing happened to Philip in Acts 8:39-40. He was also transported to another place (Azotus) after “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more.”
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