Embryo Adoption

[agapewolf]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that a couple that goes into embryo adoption with the mindset of adopting versus a couple with the mindset of no longer being infertile. Some couples that adopt embryos have stated that they do not view their children as adopted because they are the ones that “gave life” to their child and speak of a time when they once suffered from infertility. They seem to believe their infertility was cured through that process. They will say things such as they did not adopt their children, they are theirs because at the moment their hearts started beating (or “became alive”), it was inside their womb. I think that is problematic and also very unkind to the couple who biologically formed the baby, and willing allowed him/her to be adopted so that he/she may live instead of killed.

I attended the TOB institute for many classes, on of which was “Catholic Sexual Ethics” taught by Dr. John Haas, the president of the Natl Catholic bioethics center.

Embryo adoption was the most asked about question…we studied the document that was mentioned already in this thread.

What you mention in this post is exactly the discussion that was had… humans are not a “means to an end”… they cannot be used for treatment for infertility. This left the door a bit open though to the possibility of embryo adoption… however, Dr. Haas, if I remember correctly, had strong inclinations that after further research, it would eventually be ruled against.

 

[bitterhope]

I attended the TOB institute for many classes, on of which was “Catholic Sexual Ethics” taught by Dr. John Haas, the president of the Natl Catholic bioethics center.

Embryo adoption was the most asked about question…we studied the document that was mentioned already in this thread.

What you mention in this post is exactly the discussion that was had… humans are not a “means to an end”… they cannot be used for treatment for infertility. This left the door a bit open though to the possibility of embryo adoption… however, Dr. Haas, if I remember correctly, had strong inclinations that after further research, it would eventually be ruled against.

I agree. It saddens me that so many human lives will be lost, but I don’t see any other alternative. It is never moral to create life in a lab, yet killing the “surplus” is even worse. Treating them like goods to be passed out or sold to consumers is sickening. There are no good answers.

 

[CrystalMayner66]

Treating them like goods to be passed out or sold to consumers is sickening. There are no good answers.

Such a thing is sickening. Yet I don’t believe all, or even most, embryo adoption programs treat the embryos “like goods to be passed out or sold to consumers”. The good answer is treating them like children and adopting them out to loving homes, and that is exactly what many agencies do.

 

[AdamP88]

Interesting comments here. I think there is probably no completely just and moral solution to this issue. Embryo adoption also means that the child will never have the opportunity to know their natural parents.

It really is like something from a sci-fi novel when you think about it. Thousands of human persons, each with an eternal soul, trapped in an embryonic state.

I would tend to lean toward some option of trying to allow as many as possible to live. It’s certainly the “less evil” of some dubious options.

 

[agapewolf]

Interesting comments here. I think there is probably no completely just and moral solution to this issue. Embryo adoption also means that the child will never have the opportunity to know their natural parents.

It really is like something from a sci-fi novel when you think about it. Thousands of human persons, each with an eternal soul, trapped in an embryonic state.

I would tend to lean toward some option of trying to allow as many as possible to live. It’s certainly the “less evil” of some dubious options.

Those adopted after being born might not know their natural parents either.

 

[bitterhope]

Such a thing is sickening. Yet I don’t believe all, or even most, embryo adoption programs treat the embryos “like goods to be passed out or sold to consumers”. The good answer is treating them like children and adopting them out to loving homes, and that is exactly what many agencies do.

It isn’t recognized by most people (even those that consider themselves pro life) as such, but that is what happens. The entire industry manufactures and distributes humans. That is how these humans came into existence to begin with and that is why parents are seeking out embryos to have implanted so that they can finally be pregnant.

 

[bitterhope]

Those adopted after being born might not know their natural parents either.

This is true. Many adopted children never know their biological parents on an intellectual level, yet they were nourished and birthed in such a way that on a cellular level they are truly tied to their mothers, and their mothers to them, for life. Science has proven that.

scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-discover-childrens-cells-living-in-mothers-brain/

Children born through embryo adoption, surrogacy, egg donation, etc are robbed of this connection to their mothers and the mothers are robbed as well. Often the children adopted after birth are raised knowing they were adopted. That knowledge often helps children understand the deep feeling of the disconnect adopted children of speak of feeling even when raised in a wonderful home with loving devoted parents. When children adopted as embryos are viewed as “not adopted” and raised as though they cured their parents infertility, those children may struggle more with those feelings of disconnect.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I attended the TOB institute for many classes, on of which was “Catholic Sexual Ethics” taught by Dr. John Haas, the president of the Natl Catholic bioethics center.

Embryo adoption was the most asked about question…we studied the document that was mentioned already in this thread.

What you mention in this post is exactly the discussion that was had… humans are not a “means to an end”… they cannot be used for treatment for infertility. This left the door a bit open though to the possibility of embryo adoption… however, Dr. Haas, if I remember correctly, had strong inclinations that after further research, it would eventually be ruled against.

If I remember correctly, Germain Grizes (sp?) touched on a problem of a sister rescuing the embryo of her deceased sister.

twotlj.org/G-3-51.html

 

[AdamP88]

If I remember correctly, Germain Grizes (sp?) touched on a problem of a sister rescuing the embryo of her deceased sister.

twotlj.org/G-3-51.html

I think he makes a good argument. I’d have to agree with him.

 

[JanetF]

This is going to sound harsh, but it seems to me that the real issue is why does every couple believe that they have the right be parents when they say the time is right? What I mean is by not being patient and waiting for God to bless them with a child "if he so chooses to do so", the couple is deciding that they know better than God himself knows.

In catholic wedding vows, we are asked if we will lovingly ACCEPT children as a gift from God. That means, when God decides it’s time, then we trust in the plan. If he never blesses a couple with children, then perhaps they simply weren’t meant to be parents

Like I said harsh, but… In some cases perhaps God’s plan is that a couple adopts and that’s is why they are unable to conceive, but then by forcing the issue by using IVF, is that couple in thwarting God’s plan robbing another child of the parents they need by not being open to adoption?

FYI: My husband and I were married for 11 years prior to the birth of our daughter. I never even considered IVF. I trusted in God that if we were meant to have children, we would. During those 11 years, we were busy living our lives, not consumed with trying to conceive. Don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t always easy to trust in His plan, and I have the utmost sympathy for infertile couples. I know it’s hard!

Let the flames begin…

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It isn’t recognized by most people (even those that consider themselves pro life) as such, but that is what happens. The entire industry manufactures and distributes humans. That is how these humans came into existence to begin with and that is why parents are seeking out embryos to have implanted so that they can finally be pregnant.

You seem to be assuming that all who support embryo adoption are just selfishly trying to cure their infertility and have no actual charitable motives behind it at all, just pretending to.

So what about people who would buy slaves so they could free them, way back when slavery was legal. A free black man who wanted to marry a slave woman would often need to buy her from the owner. (Not always, but if he didn’t there was always a risk the owner would sell her to someone else.) While we can certainly debate whether doing that was moral or not, we don’t have to say accuse them of just selfishly wanting a domestic slave of their own and having no charitable motives at all.

 

[bitterhope]

You seem to be assuming that all who support embryo adoption are just selfishly trying to cure their infertility and have no actual charitable motives behind it at all, just pretending to.

So what about people who would buy slaves so they could free them, way back when slavery was legal. A free black man who wanted to marry a slave woman would often need to buy her from the owner. (Not always, but if he didn’t there was always a risk the owner would sell her to someone else.) While we can certainly debate whether doing that was moral or not, we don’t have to say accuse them of just selfishly wanting a domestic slave of their own and having no charitable motives at all.

IVF, egg donations, sperm donations, etc. is manufacturing children. It is wrong. That isn’t an assumption it is a fact. No one has a right to be a parent. Sex and babies have been separated from one another for so long now that it isn’t recognized anymore.

 

[AdamP88]

IVF, egg donations, sperm donations, etc. is manufacturing children. It is wrong. That isn’t an assumption it is a fact. No one has a right to be a parent. Sex and babies have been separated from one another for so long now that it isn’t recognized anymore.

Yes it is wrong. But the embryo resulting is a human person that can either be treated as garbage and thrown away or could be adopted by a couple.

Did you read Grisez’s treatment of this?

 

[bitterhope]

This is going to sound harsh, but it seems to me that the real issue is why does every couple believe that they have the right be parents when they say the time is right? What I mean is by not being patient and waiting for God to bless them with a child "if he so chooses to do so", the couple is deciding that they know better than God himself knows.

In catholic wedding vows, we are asked if we will lovingly ACCEPT children as a gift from God. That means, when God decides it’s time, then we trust in the plan. If he never blesses a couple with children, then perhaps they simply weren’t meant to be parents

Like I said harsh, but… In some cases perhaps God’s plan is that a couple adopts and that’s is why they are unable to conceive, but then by forcing the issue by using IVF, is that couple in thwarting God’s plan robbing another child of the parents they need by not being open to adoption?

FYI: My husband and I were married for 11 years prior to the birth of our daughter. I never even considered IVF. I trusted in God that if we were meant to have children, we would. During those 11 years, we were busy living our lives, not consumed with trying to conceive. Don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t always easy to trust in His plan, and I have the utmost sympathy for infertile couples. I know it’s hard!

Let the flames begin…

Yes. The world is full of people who want what they want when they want it. People who want to become parents on their own term in their own timing. No one has the right to manipulate human life like that.

Thank you for accepting God’s will in your life.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

IVF, egg donations, sperm donations, etc. is manufacturing children. It is wrong. That isn’t an assumption it is a fact. No one has a right to be a parent. Sex and babies have been separated from one another for so long now that it isn’t recognized anymore.

I wasn’t addressing any of that, just embryo adoption itself. The OP is not discussing embryo adoption as just another medical advancement to “cure” infertility, though it seems you personally see no difference between IVF and embryo adoption when it comes to morality. But the OP herself does and that is what we’re discussing.

Hence my slavery analogy, certainly there is a consensus these days that it is wrong to buy and sell born human beings. Does that mean a black free man in love with a black slave woman who wants to marry her, sinning if he buys her? If he has the option of marrying her without buying her, perhaps that is the moral option, even if there is the risk the owner will sell her to someone else, or sell their children – for he was seen as the owner of his female slaves children even if the father wasn’t a slave.

But what if the only way to marry the woman is to buy her? In that case does the ends justify the means? Or should he just marry a free woman and say to the slave woman, “Sorry, I don’t believe buying you is moral so you’ll just have to stay with your owner and hope he doesn’t sell you down river”.

 

[bitterhope]

Yes it is wrong. But the embryo resulting is a human person that can either be treated as garbage and thrown away or could be adopted by a couple.

Did you read Grisez’s treatment of this?

I agree it is wrong to treat the embryos like trash. Unfortunately that started with their creation in a lab.

I did read it and I don’t agree. Especially in the case of purposely getting pregnant, carrying a baby to term with the intention of then placing the child for adoption.

There is no good answer. The entire industry is evil. We can’t contribute to that in any way shape or form.

 

[CrystalMayner66]

You seem to be assuming that all who support embryo adoption are just selfishly trying to cure their infertility and have no actual charitable motives behind it at all, just pretending to.

So what about people who would buy slaves so they could free them, way back when slavery was legal. A free black man who wanted to marry a slave woman would often need to buy her from the owner. (Not always, but if he didn’t there was always a risk the owner would sell her to someone else.) While we can certainly debate whether doing that was moral or not, we don’t have to say accuse them of just selfishly wanting a domestic slave of their own and having no charitable motives at all.

Interesting example.

 

[AdamP88]

I agree it is wrong to treat the embryos like trash. Unfortunately that started with their creation in a lab.

I did read it and I don’t agree. Especially in the case of purposely getting pregnant, carrying a baby to term with the intention of then placing the child for adoption.

There is no good answer. The entire industry is evil. We can’t contribute to that in any way shape or form.

Ok. Well forgive me if I take a well respected and orthodox Catholic theologian’s word for it over yours.

 

[bitterhope]

I wasn’t addressing any of that, just embryo adoption itself. The OP is not discussing embryo adoption as just another medical advancement to “cure” infertility, though it seems you personally see no difference between IVF and embryo adoption when it comes to morality. But the OP herself does and that is what we’re discussing.

Hence my slavery analogy, certainly there is a consensus these days that it is wrong to buy and sell born human beings. Does that mean a black free man in love with a black slave woman who wants to marry her, sinning if he buys her? If he has the option of marrying her without buying her, perhaps that is the moral option, even if there is the risk the owner will sell her to someone else, or sell their children – for he was seen as the owner of his female slaves children even if the father wasn’t a slave.

But what if the only way to marry the woman is to buy her? In that case does the ends justify the means? Or should he just marry a free woman and say to the slave woman, “Sorry, I don’t believe buying you is moral so you’ll just have to stay with your owner and hope he doesn’t sell you down river”.

Embryos up for adoption were created with IVF in mind and are surplus goods. It is all the same industry. Slavery is not the same industry. What isn’t being discussed is slavery.

 

[CrystalMayner66]

In some cases perhaps God’s plan is that a couple adopts and that’s is why they are unable to conceive, but then by forcing the issue by using IVF, is that couple in thwarting God’s plan robbing another child of the parents they need by not being open to adoption?

The fact God intends for many couples to adopt is key. I do not advocate using IVF, this practice is contrary to God’s plan. I am advocating embryo adoption.

Congratulations on the birth of your daughter after 11 years!