Emergency baptism in utero?

[NaturalEnquirer]

Hi all,

If a pregnant woman has a reasonable fear that she may lose the child for some reason, is there any way to baptise it? Obviously one couldn’t pour water over the baby.

Another somewhat related question. Suppose a child dies soon after being born, but the parents didn’t have the presence of mind to perform an emergency baptism. If it occurs to them a few minutes after the fact, that’s simply too late, right?

Thanks!

 

[peapod]

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./Our cruisers cannot repel n00bishness of this
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . / magnitude! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _,––,_ . . . … _________________________________/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,-‘ : : : :::: :::: :: : : : : :º ‘-, . . /. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .,-‘ :: : : :::: :::: :::: :::: : : : ‘-, . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . ,-‘ :: ::: :: : : :: :::: :::: :: : : : : ‘-, . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .,-‘ : :: :: :: :: :: : : : : : , : : :º :::: :::: ::’; . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .,-‘ / / : :: :: :: :: : : :::: :::-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;\ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . /,-‘,’ :: : : : : : : : : :: :: :: : ‘-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;;| . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . /,’,-‘ :: :: :: :: :: :: :: : ::,-,’-, ;; ;; ;; ;; | . . . . . . .
. . . . . / :,’ :: :: :: : : :: :: ,-‘/ : ,-‘;’-‘’’’’~-, ;; ;; ;;,’ . . . . . . . .
. . . ,-‘ / : : : : : : ,-‘’’ : : :,–‘’ :|| /,-‘-‘–‘’’,’’’ \ ;; ;,-‘ . . . . . . . .
. . . \ :/, : : : ,-‘ --, : : \ :\ ||/ /,-‘-‘x### ::\ \ ;;/ . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . / /—‘’’’ : \ #\ : :\ : : \ :\ | | : (O##º : /-‘’ . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . /,’_ : :\ ‘-#\ : , : :\ :\ \ \ : ‘-,,-‘,-`-, . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . ‘ ) : : : :’’’’–,–,¯ \ \ :: ::–,’’-,’’’¯ :’- :’-, . . . . . . . . .
. . . . .) : : : : : : , : ‘’’’’ \ :: :: :: :’’’’’¯ :: ,-‘ :,/\ . . . . . . . . .
. . . . .,/ /|\| | / : : : : : : : ,’-, :: :: :: :: ::,–‘’ :,-‘ \ \ . . . . . . . .
. . . . .\’|\ |/ ‘/ / :: :–, : , | )’; :: :: :: :,-‘’ : ,-‘ : : :\ , . . . . . . .
. . . ./¯ \ |\ : |/\ :: ::----, :|/ :: :: ,-‘’ : :,-‘ : : : : : : ‘’-, . . . .
. . …| : : ‘’-(, :: :: :: ‘’’’’~,’’ :: ,-‘’ : :,-‘ : : : : : : : : :,-‘’’\ . . . .
. ,-‘ : : : | : : ‘’) : : :¯’’’’~-,: : ,–‘’’ : :,-‘’ : : : : : : : : : ,-‘ :¯’’’’’-,_ .
./ : : : : :’-, :: | :: :: :: _,-‘’’’¯ : ,–‘’ : : : : : : : : : : : / : : : : : : :’’-,
/ : : : : : -, :¯’’’’’’’’’’’¯ : : _,-~’’ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : :¯’’~~~~’’’ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : | : : : : : : : : :

 

[lizaanne]

What the heck is THAT?

~Liza

 

[SMHW]

What the heck is THAT?

~Liza

It looks like one of the Mon Calamari from Star Wars.

 

[batteddy]

Suppose a child dies soon after being born, but the parents didn’t have the presence of mind to perform an emergency baptism. If it occurs to them a few minutes after the fact, that’s simply too late, right?

We don’t know exactly when the soul leaves the body, until decomposition starts, but one can certainly preform at least a conditional baptism if it’s only a few minutes later. After all, sometimes people have been “dead” that long only to be resuscitated…

As for the unborn, Catholic encyclopedia says:

This leads to the baptism of infants in cases of difficult delivery. When the Roman Ritual declares that a child is not to be baptized while still enclosed (clausus) in its mother’s womb, it supposes that the baptismal water can not reach the body of the child. When, however, this seems possible, even with the aid of an instrument, Benedict XIV (Syn. Diaec., vii, 5) declares that midwives should be instructed to confer conditional baptism. The Ritual further says that when the water can flow upon the head of the infant the sacrament is to be administered absolutely; but if it can be poured only on some other part of the body, baptism is indeed to be conferred, but it must be conditionally repeated in case the child survives its birth, It is to be noted that in these last two cases, the rubric of the Ritual supposes that the infant has partly emerged from the womb. For if the fetus was entirely enclosed, baptism is to be repeated conditionally in all cases (Lehmkuhl, n, 61).
In case of the death of the mother, the fetus is to be immediately extracted and baptized, should there be any life in it. Infants have been taken alive from the womb well after the mother’s death. After the Cæsarean incision has been performed, the fetus may be conditionally baptized before extraction if possible; if the sacrament is administered after its removal from the womb the baptism is to be absolute, provided it is certain that life remains. If after extraction it is doubtful whether it be still alive, it is to be baptized under the condition: “If thou art alive”. Physicians, mothers, and midwives ought to be reminded of the grave obligation of administering baptism under these circumstances. It is to be borne in mind that according to the prevailing opinion among the learned, the fetus is animated by a human soul from the very beginning of its conception. In cases of delivery where the issue is a mass that is not certainly animated by human life, it is to be baptized conditionally: “If thou art a man.”

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi all,

If a pregnant woman has a reasonable fear that she may lose the child for some reason, is there any way to baptise it? Obviously one couldn’t pour water over the baby.

Another somewhat related question. Suppose a child dies soon after being born, but the parents didn’t have the presence of mind to perform an emergency baptism. If it occurs to them a few minutes after the fact, that’s simply too late, right?

Thanks!

Water must flow over the persons skin for Baptism to be valid.

So in the case of the infant who had surgery in utero. Where they opened up the uterus performed the necessary proceedure and returned the child to the uterus to remain for the rest of the 9 months. That child could have been Baptized at that time.

During birth if there are complications if one has access to a foot or hand one can validly Baptize.

After birth Baptism can be celebrated up to the time where death is certain. So if medical personal are trying to save the child a child may be Baptized, that could be up to 20 minutes.

 

[MysticalMan]

Don’t forget about the extraordinary means of baptism such as baptism of desire!

God respects the parents intention of having the child baptized.

 

[1ke]

If a pregnant woman has a reasonable fear that she may lose the child for some reason, is there any way to baptise it? Obviously one couldn’t pour water over the baby.

No. Except as Bro Rich pointed out in the case where the womb is opened up for other reasons (but I doubt a surgeon would let someone in the room and let them pour water on the baby… that might cause problems with the sterile environment).

So, under normal circumstances a baby cannot be baptized until it is born.

Another somewhat related question. Suppose a child dies soon after being born, but the parents didn’t have the presence of mind to perform an emergency baptism. If it occurs to them a few minutes after the fact, that’s simply too late, right?

If the child has been pronounced dead, there can be no baptism. Only a living person can receive baptism.

We trust any baby who dies unbaptized to God’s love and mercy.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

No. Except as Bro Rich pointed out in the case where the womb is opened up for other reasons (but I doubt a surgeon would let someone in the room and let them pour water on the baby… that might cause problems with the sterile environment)…

Sterile water…

 

[Seatuck]

Sterile water…

Yes, sterile water. It has been done.

 

[1ke]

Sterile water…

I was not referring only to the water used, but also the people being in the operating room. Not all surgeons go for people coming in and out.

It’s possible to be done, and hopefully it would be done, but the surgeon may not allow it.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Don’t forget about the extraordinary means of baptism such as baptism of desire!

God respects the parents intention of having the child baptized.

Unfortunately Baptism of Desire is the expressed desire of the person, who wishes to receive baptism and then is then unable to receive Baptism because of death. A person cannot Desire Baptism for another person, only for themselves.

 

[mary_s_kid]

Unfortunately Baptism of Desire is the expressed desire of the person, who wishes to receive baptism and then is then unable to receive Baptism because of death. A person cannot Desire Baptism for another person, only for themselves.

A live baby cannot desire baptism either. The parent desires it for them and then has them baptized. Just because a baby is not born alive doesn’t mean that their parents didn’t desire baptism for them. God can work outside of the sacraments and structures He’s put in place for us to obey. I’m only making this point in case a grieving parent happens to be reading this thread and becomes distressed reading the replies.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

A live baby cannot desire baptism either. The parent desires it for them and then has them baptized. Just because a baby is not born alive doesn’t mean that their parents didn’t desire baptism for them. God can work outside of the sacraments and structures He’s put in place for us to obey. I’m only making this point in case a grieving parent happens to be reading this thread and becomes distressed reading the replies.

But you’re giving grieving parents incorrect information. The Church tells us we should hope and trust in God’s mercy regarding unbaptized infants, but she certainly does not teach that the desire of parents to baptize the child counts as a baptism of desire. Bro. Rich’s point is correct.

 

[mary_s_kid]

But you’re giving grieving parents incorrect information. The Church tells us we should hope and trust in God’s mercy regarding unbaptized infants, but she certainly does not teach that the desire of parents to baptize the child counts as a baptism of desire. Bro. Rich’s point is correct.

I don’t think I am giving incorrect information. I am also saying to trust in God’s mercy. Just because the baby is not baptized doesn’t mean that God will keep the baby from being in heaven with Him. I’m just making a point that babies that are baptized are done so because of their parent’s desire, not their own desire.
The “legal” Catholic definition of baptism of desire isn’t what concerns me here.
Unless this has happened to you, you have absolutely no idea how distressing it is.

 

[THurifer2]

I I’m just making a point that babies that are baptized are done so because of their parent’s desire, not their own desire.

Wait a minute here! There are three types of baptism. Desire, With water, and by blood. I believe you are melding two of them together which is not correct. The baptism of desire is when a person cannot be baptised by infusion of water. In the case of a child their baptism by the infusion of water makes their baptism a baptism of water. Baptism of desire only applies to an individual desiring their own baptism never “by proxy” for someone else. One can never recieve the baptism of desire based on someone else desireing for them to be baptised. A parents desire for their child being baptised is not a baptism of desire because they are baptised by water you cannot have two types of baptism happending at the same time.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A live baby cannot desire baptism either. The parent desires it for them and then has them baptized. Just because a baby is not born alive doesn’t mean that their parents didn’t desire baptism for them. God can work outside of the sacraments and structures He’s put in place for us to obey. I’m only making this point in case a grieving parent happens to be reading this thread and becomes distressed reading the replies.

It must be remembered that Baptism of Desire as defined by Trent is a very narrow thing and is not equivelent to Sacramental Baptism, as it does not supply the Mark of Sacramental Baptism on the soul. A child who dies unbaptized is entrusted to God.

 

[THurifer2]

It must be remembered that Baptism of Desire as defined by Trent is a very narrow thing and is not equivelent to Sacramental Baptism, as it does not supply the Mark of Sacramental Baptism on the soul. A child who dies unbaptized is entrusted to God.

I am sure the good thief would have some comments to add!

 

[mary_s_kid]

Wait a minute here! There are three types of baptism. Desire, With water, and by blood. I believe you are melding two of them together which is not correct. .

I guess I am. I never heard of baptism by blood. I’m assuming that’s martyrdom?

 

[MysticalMan]

Unfortunately Baptism of Desire is the expressed desire of the person, who wishes to receive baptism and then is then unable to receive Baptism because of death. A person cannot Desire Baptism for another person, only for themselves.

Simply not true!