Eminem

[Broom]

I know that there was a post about Music and Moral sin, but I had a quesiton on Em in particular.

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EMINEM has gained controversy as well as popularity for years because of his ridiculously obscene and at times misoginistic lyrics. However, he really isn’t one to slam religon. Plus I find that he has the right to exercise his freedom of speech, as well as right to protest. He’s lyrically a genuis. He portrays a CHARACTER known as SLIM SHADY, and when he raps using his alter ego, he typically says things of obscenity. Now, Em is far from this in real life, as he is the sole father of three daughters (One from his wife, and the other two were born from his wife and her cheating affairs.) I respect him for that, and the fact that he states that he is not what he is portraying in his music.

Now, I’ve heard that Christians in particular are protesting him. I mean, IT’S ENTERTAINMENT. You don’t see Christians protesting Quinten Tarrantino. Also, Em is a practicing Christian. And to be honest, I don’t think the Catholic Church has the right to protest him. He uses the word “******” which many Christian protestors use when protesting Gays. He also is ocasionally misoginistic, although the Catholic church is known for some of its aspects to be sex selected. I’m not insulting the Church, but is it really a sin for me to listen to him? Do I need to confess? Is he going to Hell?

PS: This is the only verse that he’s ever said about Christians:
…See I’m a poet to some, a regular modern day Shakespeare
Jesus Christ the King of these Latter Day Saints here
To shatter the picture in which of that as they paint me
as a monger of hate and Satan a scatter-brained atheist
But that ain’t the case, see it’s a matter of taste
We as a people decide if Shady’s as bad as they say he is
Or is he the latter - a gateway to escape?
Media scapegoat, who they can be mad at today
See it’s easy as cake, simple as whistlin Dixie
while I’m wavin the pistol at sixty Christians against me
Go to war with the Mormons, take a bath with the Catholics
in holy water - no wonder they try to hold me under longer…

 

[LilyM]

You don’t see Christians making mass organised protests against ‘Desperate Housewives’ or ‘Sex in the City’, for that matter - nor, for that matter, against Playboy or Penthouse Magazines.

Does that mean these are suitable for Christian consumption? Not if we are to take St Paul’s words seriously - ‘whatever is good, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is holy, think about these things.’ If I want to be a faithful servant of Christ, why should I waste my time on anything that is at best spiritually neutral, at worst still a poor example for a Christian?

 

[Broom]

I see your point, but then again that’s saying that you’re never going to see a scary or suggestive movie. It’s probably best for us to get these things out of our systems before we’re shocked by others when they bring it into our life.

 

[LilyM]

I see your point, but then again that’s saying that you’re never going to see a scary or suggestive movie. It’s probably best for us to get these things out of our systems before we’re shocked by others when they bring it into our life.

What you’re saying is that we should desensitise ourselves to evil by deliberately and needlessly exposing ourselves to it because we’re going to be exposed to it anyway? Since when should we NOT be shocked by evil?

Sure, by the same logic I guess I’ll go wander through the hottest warzones of Afghanistan for kicks because hey, one day I might be exposed to the horrors of war here and heaven forbid I should be SHOCKED by something as unnatural and abhorrent as war!!!

Where exactly do we find examples of this process of deliberately wallowing in evil in order not to be shocked by it in the lives of Christ? The apostles? The saints?

 

[camerong]

I see your point, but then again that’s saying that you’re never going to see a scary or suggestive movie. It’s probably best for us to get these things out of our systems before we’re shocked by others when they bring it into our life.

Oh how much sin has been tolerated in this world in the name of “getting it out of our systems…”

 

[Broom]

Well, maybe going to Afghanistan will get you out of the dellusion that we have sucessfully established GOD’S KINGDOM on earth. Honestly.

And if we try too hard to avoid something, it will overcome us. The best things we could do in my opinion, is to identify said email, and know that it’s horse ****. If I went and watched SAW V I probably would think that the person who wrote that movie is a ****ed up person. However, it wouldn’t shock me later on in life when I actually see something along the likes of that happen, (hearing about a serial murder on the news, ect.)
Idk maybe that’s just me.

 

[LilyM]

Well, maybe going to Afghanistan will get you out of the dellusion that we have sucessfully established GOD’S KINGDOM on earth. Honestly.

And if we try too hard to avoid something, it will overcome us. The best things we could do in my opinion, is to identify said email, and know that it’s horse ****. If I went and watched SAW V I probably would think that the person who wrote that movie is a ****ed up person. However, it wouldn’t shock me later on in life when I actually see something along the likes of that happen, (hearing about a serial murder on the news, ect.)
Idk maybe that’s just me.

I have no such delusions about Afghanistan. And I don’t need to personally stick my hand into a bonfire to know it will burn me, nor personally touch my tongue on a frozen metal pole to know it will stick. Nor go into a warzone to know that war achieves nothing. Having a brain, I can learn all I need to know about the bad consequences of such actions without experiencing them first hand.

Again - tell me where this idea comes from that it ought NOT shock you that people do horrible things to each other in real life? That shock is an inappropriate or incorrect response to evil, sin, the horrible things humans do to each other? Sin IS shocking, evil IS shocking, inhumanity IS shocking - or it should be to those with a functioning conscience.

Does it not occur to you that the people who commit those ‘unshocking’ serial murders and the like were watching violent movies as you do, and that just maybe watching those movies made them ‘unshocked’ enough by the idea of serial murder to go out and do the act themselves?

Not that it has the same effect on everyone, of course, but there is certainly a reasonable amount of evidence of a correlation between a high level of exposure to tv or cinematic violence or sex and acting out those behaviours in real life.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Does that mean these are suitable for Christian consumption? Not if we are to take St Paul’s words seriously - ‘whatever is good, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is holy, think about these things.’ If I want to be a faithful servant of Christ, why should I waste my time on anything that is at best spiritually neutral, at worst still a poor example for a Christian?

I hate to break it to you but one of the greatest ways for people to find something in common is when that something is neutral, impartial and everyone can relate too. That goes for spiritually neutral music.

As far as Eminem’s music goes, I have to say that at least some of his songs have more substance in them than blatantly materialistic gangster rappers like 50 Cent.

Getting people to coop up in bubbles and tell them get all “holy and clean” is an alienating concept and it will only push away people who live in a world that they already know is full of the exact opposite.

 

[Broom]

I agree with the above post. When EM was first blowing up, I was much younger, (In my teens 10-13.) And I got to say, the media really made a big deal out of the whole thing, and I was raised to believe that he was a psycho pathic mother killer. However, the fact that it was taboo actually drew me further to it, and upon listening to Rap music and lyrics, I have learned to tone out the hate, and distinguish Fact from Entertainment. I also have been able to appreciate the music for what it is- art.

The fact of the matter is, an art form- philosophy or whatever it may be gains most of its ground, and converters when it is in its most radical state.
HIP HOP was radical. It was bad ***, and drew a lot of attention. And rappers suffered for it, such as Tupac and Biggie. But before you say that they were thugs, and that’s how they deserved to die, you should eliminate those pre-concieved notions, because that’s not Christ like in virtue. SOME, and I said some, not all, of these men are maurders. In the sense that their radical belief cost them their own death.

When have we heard this before. Oh yeah, look at our religion. It was radical, and it was the underdog, as many people had pre-concieved notions about the Lord.

So before you go out and say something is evil, first go and listen to the material that you are labeling. You might just be wrong. Like the people who sentenced Christ to death.

I’ll give you some songs to listen to.

Mocking Bird - Eminem
youtube.com/watch?v=hE0_PC_8j7o

Ghetto Gospel - Tupac
youtube.com/watch?v=dhI7Tjc_RhY

Note that a Tupac song is also featured on THE OFFICIAL VATICAN MYSPACE PLAYLIST.

 

[LilyM]

Getting people to coop up in bubbles and tell them get all “holy and clean” is an alienating concept and it will only push away people who live in a world that they already know is full of the exact opposite.

So St Paul was cooped up in a bubble when he said the following to his correspondents:

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8)

He pushed away people by this attitude? Failed to find common ground with them? Failed to prepare them for the evils of the world?

On the contrary. He found plenty of common ground with the pagan Athenians and other Greeks, but he certainly didn’t do it by confining himself to the ‘spiritually neutral’, did he? In fact there is barely a word of any of his epistles or recorded speeches which is spiritually neutral!

And he certainly achieved as much in all the respects you’ve discussed as any follower of Christ who has tried the methods you’ve suggested, if not a heck of a lot more so.

Again - where in the NT did Christ or the Apostles confine themselves to the merely spiritually neutral with their followers? Or, worse still, deliberately and unnecessarily expose themselves to evil so as not to be shocked by it?

Or express the idea that the way to prepare oneself for the evils of the world was to conform to the world instead of to God’s will? Your ideas are certainly not consonant with consistent Christian and Catholic practice and teaching, which is that we are to conform the world to Christ and not ourselves to the world.

Nor, where they have been employed, have they achieved particular success in bringing souls to Christ, quite the contrary, as the miserable failure of the attempts of the last few decades of attempts to ‘make Christianity relevant to the modern world’ and the like ideas have shown.

 

[fulbert4605]

In and of himself, Eminem is not evil. His songs protray evil, though. While it is a form of entertainment, we must be careful not to fall into occasions of sin.

It is possible to cast your eyes upon a naked body of the opposite gender and not commit the sin of lust. However, you’d be pretty foolish to do that often. It’s like playing with fire.

You can listen to Eminem and commit no sin so long as you keep it in perspective it is simply a form of entertainment and you don’t pick up any bad habits or thoughts at all from the music. Again, it’s like playing with fire, though.

God put us on this earth to love Him and praise Him. We cannot pray and praise Him 24 hours a day. There are human faculties we must attend to. Entertainment can be part of this so long as it doesn’t take away too much time from God. Many forms of entertainment have been created by or are a result of sinful human beings. Sometimes sin shows through in their work, but not always. With so many other forms of cleaner entertainment that would seem to present less occasions of sin, why take a chance with Eminem? Might i suggest Ira Gershwin as a cleaner lyrical genius worth checking into?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

On the contrary. He found plenty of common ground with the pagan Athenians and other Greeks, but he certainly didn’t do it by confining himself to the ‘spiritually neutral’, did he? In fact there is barely a word of any of his epistles or recorded speeches which is spiritually neutral!

And he certainly achieved as much in all the respects you’ve discussed as any follower of Christ who has tried the methods you’ve suggested, if not a heck of a lot more so.

Again - where in the NT did Christ or the Apostles confine themselves to the merely spiritually neutral with their followers? Or, worse still, deliberately and unnecessarily expose themselves to evil so as not to be shocked by it?

Who said anything about confining to the spiritually neutral? It’s no different from one confining himself/herself to religion. If anything, I’m one who desires that people should get out of their comfort zones and acknowledge what is good even in things you deem “filthy”.

Or express the idea that the way to prepare oneself for the evils of the world was to conform to the world instead of to God’s will? Your ideas are certainly not consonant with consistent Christian and Catholic practice and teaching, which is that we are to conform the world to Christ and not ourselves to the world.

Again, you’re putting words in my mouth. Accepting the world as it is is NOT conforming to it nor is it even desensitizing oneself. It’s coming to terms with it and learning how to play on its home ground. Unless of course, you haven’t realized that people are already avoiding the religious home ground like the plague?

Nor, where they have been employed, have they achieved particular success in bringing souls to Christ, quite the contrary, as the miserable failure of the attempts of the last few decades of attempts to ‘make Christianity relevant to the modern world’ and the like ideas have shown.

By this, are you actually admitting that Christianity is doomed to failure because I don’t see going all out “religious and pure” being any more effective (if not, worse since a majority of pop culture indoctrinated individuals can’t even relate to that).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

In and of himself, Eminem is not evil. His songs protray evil, though. While it is a form of entertainment, we must be careful not to fall into occasions of sin.

It is possible to cast your eyes upon a naked body of the opposite gender and not commit the sin of lust. However, you’d be pretty foolish to do that often. It’s like playing with fire.

I believe the OP is talking more about the man’s music and less about his music videos.
I’d probably find some of Em’s songs to be pretty sleazy but these are usually what I call his “dance music” songs. The songs I like from him are more along the lines of Lose Yourself and such which are more human.

 

[Ralph4454]

I think you know the answer to your own questions. Perhaps you just need some comforting from others to tell you that you are OK?

 

[Vasian]

I think you know the answer to your own questions. Perhaps you just need some comforting from others to tell you that you are OK?

Ears tickled…

 

[peary1]

I know that there was a post about Music and Moral sin, but I had a quesiton on Em in particular.

http://www.eminem.net/picture/images/eminem_2.jpg

EMINEM has gained controversy as well as popularity for years because of his ridiculously obscene and at times misoginistic lyrics. However, he really isn’t one to slam religon. Plus I find that he has the right to exercise his freedom of speech, as well as right to protest. He’s lyrically a genuis. He portrays a CHARACTER known as SLIM SHADY, and when he raps using his alter ego, he typically says things of obscenity. Now, Em is far from this in real life, as he is the sole father of three daughters (One from his wife, and the other two were born from his wife and her cheating affairs.) I respect him for that, and the fact that he states that he is not what he is portraying in his music.

Now, I’ve heard that Christians in particular are protesting him. I mean, IT’S ENTERTAINMENT. You don’t see Christians protesting Quinten Tarrantino. Also, Em is a practicing Christian. And to be honest, I don’t think the Catholic Church has the right to protest him. He uses the word “******” which many Christian protestors use when protesting Gays. He also is ocasionally misoginistic, although the Catholic church is known for some of its aspects to be sex selected. I’m not insulting the Church, but is it really a sin for me to listen to him? Do I need to confess? Is he going to Hell?

PS: This is the only verse that he’s ever said about Christians:
…See I’m a poet to some, a regular modern day Shakespeare
Jesus Christ the King of these Latter Day Saints here
To shatter the picture in which of that as they paint me
as a monger of hate and Satan a scatter-brained atheist
But that ain’t the case, see it’s a matter of taste
We as a people decide if Shady’s as bad as they say he is
Or is he the latter - a gateway to escape?
Media scapegoat, who they can be mad at today
See it’s easy as cake, simple as whistlin Dixie
while I’m wavin the pistol at sixty Christians against me
Go to war with the Mormons, take a bath with the Catholics
in holy water - no wonder they try to hold me under longer…

Eminem needs to grow up.

 

[Harmony1988]

I know that there was a post about Music and Moral sin, but I had a quesiton on Em in particular.

http://www.eminem.net/picture/images/eminem_2.jpg

EMINEM has gained controversy as well as popularity for years because of his ridiculously obscene and at times misoginistic lyrics. However, he really isn’t one to slam religon. Plus I find that he has the right to exercise his freedom of speech, as well as right to protest. He’s lyrically a genuis. He portrays a CHARACTER known as SLIM SHADY, and when he raps using his alter ego, he typically says things of obscenity. Now, Em is far from this in real life, as he is the sole father of three daughters (One from his wife, and the other two were born from his wife and her cheating affairs.) I respect him for that, and the fact that he states that he is not what he is portraying in his music.

Now, I’ve heard that Christians in particular are protesting him. I mean, IT’S ENTERTAINMENT. You don’t see Christians protesting Quinten Tarrantino. Also, Em is a practicing Christian. And to be honest, I don’t think the Catholic Church has the right to protest him. He uses the word “******” which many Christian protestors use when protesting Gays. He also is ocasionally misoginistic, although the Catholic church is known for some of its aspects to be sex selected. I’m not insulting the Church, but is it really a sin for me to listen to him? Do I need to confess? Is he going to Hell?

PS: This is the only verse that he’s ever said about Christians:
…See I’m a poet to some, a regular modern day Shakespeare
Jesus Christ the King of these Latter Day Saints here
To shatter the picture in which of that as they paint me
as a monger of hate and Satan a scatter-brained atheist
But that ain’t the case, see it’s a matter of taste
We as a people decide if Shady’s as bad as they say he is
Or is he the latter - a gateway to escape?
Media scapegoat, who they can be mad at today
See it’s easy as cake, simple as whistlin Dixie
while I’m wavin the pistol at sixty Christians against me
Go to war with the Mormons, take a bath with the Catholics
in holy water - no wonder they try to hold me under longer…

I’m pretty sure everyone knows who Eminem is without you having to give us a brief introduction, and an accompanying picture of him. I don’t really care if Christians or any other group protest his music, his music isn’t the first to be protested, and won’t be the last.

Though I don’t really listen to Eminem, I do like some of the songs he has put out like “Stan” and of course “The Real Slim Shady”. I think it’s up to you to decide whether it’s OK or not, based on your understanding and what you feel is right or wrong.

Listening to the opinions of protesters is useless. Elvis Presley garnered way more “protest” than Eminem ever did back in the 50’s. He had radio-stations refusing to play his stuff because it promoted “black animalistic music”, christian ministers denouncing his music as sexually deviant, a restraining order from a judge in Florida against him that didn’t allow him to dance, as parents complained that he evoked strong sexual desires in teenage girls, even the Catholic Jesuits had a pot-shot at him.

Eminem has had his fair share of protests against him, in another 20 years Eminem won’t be seen as explicit.

 

[Harmony1988]

So St Paul was cooped up in a bubble when he said the following to his correspondents:

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8)

The problem of course is people have varying opinions of whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, etc. Being noble 500 years ago might have meant opening the door for the lady, being noble 200 years ago might have meant having a slave. Trying to be “noble” as per a past characteristic might get you a life sentence for human rights abuse, or told off by a feminist, respectively.

As I recall, in the book of Timothy? St. Paul or Timothy makes a reference to slaves, as if it’s OK, they did it not perhaps because they were promoting it, but because it was quite normal back then. Insisting that the slave should not revolt against the master, so should I take it that if someone had a slave now, we should follow St. Paul’s teaching? Reading and applying everything you see in the Bible “just because” is a recipe for disaster, cliche, but true.

He pushed away people by this attitude? Failed to find common ground with them? Failed to prepare them for the evils of the world?

On the contrary. He found plenty of common ground with the pagan Athenians and other Greeks, but he certainly didn’t do it by confining himself to the ‘spiritually neutral’, did he? In fact there is barely a word of any of his epistles or recorded speeches which is spiritually neutral!

You are arguing from a specific case to make a wider generalization, fallacy. Fair enough that St. Paul didn’t adhere to their “spiritual neutrality” - but let’s not get carried away by extrapolating St. Paul’s ministry to apply to each and everything that comes up in an argument.

And he certainly achieved as much in all the respects you’ve discussed as any follower of Christ who has tried the methods you’ve suggested, if not a heck of a lot more so.

Again - where in the NT did Christ or the Apostles confine themselves to the merely spiritually neutral with their followers? Or, worse still, deliberately and unnecessarily expose themselves to evil so as not to be shocked by it?

I agree, exposing yourself to something you find questionable only to not be “shocked” by it when it comes up in later life is ridiculous reasoning. Broom or anyone else for that matter should not be listening or watching to anything that they personally deem as morally questionable just so they can somehow develop thick skin.

Or express the idea that the way to prepare oneself for the evils of the world was to conform to the world instead of to God’s will? Your ideas are certainly not consonant with consistent Christian and Catholic practice and teaching, which is that we are to conform the world to Christ and not ourselves to the world.

Let’s not make wide sweeping questionable generalizations either OK? Lest I point out the obvious flaws.

Nor, where they have been employed, have they achieved particular success in bringing souls to Christ, quite the contrary, as the miserable failure of the attempts of the last few decades of attempts to ‘make Christianity relevant to the modern world’ and the like ideas have shown.

Oh I see, so you believe Vatican II was a failure then? Look at how different the modern Catholic Church is to the Church from the late 1800’s/early 1900’s. Why not be like Pius X and call modernism “the synthesis of every heresy”, or like Gregory XVI, condemn every new idea and invention there is, starting with the rail system.

Attempts to make Christianity relevant to the modern world is work in progress within the Chruch and it happens, as it should, so as to keep on top of the game, how best to live in the modern world as a Christian, not how best to live in a bubble as a Christian.

 

[Harmony1988]

Well, maybe going to Afghanistan will get you out of the dellusion that we have sucessfully established GOD’S KINGDOM on earth. Honestly.

And if we try too hard to avoid something, it will overcome us. The best things we could do in my opinion, is to identify said email, and know that it’s horse ****. If I went and watched SAW V I probably would think that the person who wrote that movie is a ****ed up person. However, it wouldn’t shock me later on in life when I actually see something along the likes of that happen, (hearing about a serial murder on the news, ect.)
Idk maybe that’s just me.

You asked a question, and you got an answer. Don’t throw a tantrum because the answer is not what you expected.

What’s Afghanistan got to do with this? Don’t bother answering that.

Eitherways, LilyM is right in regards to you watching and listening stuff just so you can “get it out of your system”, “develop thick skin”, “withstand it”, “not be shocked later” - it’s lousy reasoning.