Eminent Evangelical Philosopher and Academic (Francis Beckwith) Swims Tiber

[RevDrNorth]

I am in shock…the great Baylor professor (was RC as a child) has resigned as President of the Evangelical Theological Society and returned to the Roman Catholic Church. He has been an outstanding, high profile philosopher, author, etc.

I think Baylor just granted him tenure.

abpnews.com/2139.article

Someone call Marcus Grodi as I sense he has a good guest for the Journey Home.

Rev North

 

[RevDrNorth]

I guess Dr. Schori is wrong…the Catholic church does attract well educated people…

 

[Janet_S]

I am in shock…the great Baylor professor (was RC as a child) has resigned as President of the Evangelical Theological Society and returned to the Roman Catholic Church. He has been an outstanding, high profile philosopher, author, etc.

I think Baylor just granted him tenure.

abpnews.com/2139.article

Someone call Marcus Grodi as I sense he has a good guest for the Journey Home.

Rev North

I’m looking forward to that Journey Home episode. Maybe we’ll see it soon.

Here is Francis Beckwith’s testimonial blog and a lot of comments (both pro & con).
rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2007/05/my_return_to_th.html

 

[RevDrNorth]

I’m looking forward to that Journey Home episode. Maybe we’ll see it soon.

Here is Francis Beckwith’s testimonial blog and a lot of comments (both pro & con).
rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2007/05/my_return_to_th.html

Yes I understand there is some upset. I suppose from some points of view it will look like he is a traitor to the cause and I am sure it hurts to have such a prominent academic jump to the other side. I wonder whether he will stay at Baylor University (a premier Baptist University). He has tenure…or maybe becoming Roman Catholic could be considered moral terpitude (sp??) and they could fire him

Rev North

 

[RevDrNorth]

One poster on the link you provided said something to the effect that “I wonder if what bothers Protestants about Beckwith’s conversion is that he knows all of the Protestant stuff and chose Rome anyway”.

That is an interesting point since many Protestants (of which I am one of the liturgical variety although do not feel as I am about to describe) feel that Catholics are duped by ignorance and if only they knew the true Gospel their eyes would be opened and they would leave their false church. To have someone of Beckwith’s stature and intellect make a reasoned choice to return to Rome just looks bad.

Though in the end some (as someone did on the forum you link) will question his integrity (etc). I have seen them slam Scott Hahn as misrepresenting himself and his pastor status and noting he has an ego that demanded recognition and so on. What amounts to sounding like sour grapes. Ad hominem attacks on people who make an intellectual and reasoned decision do not win arguments unless you just want to help one side have a flimsy excuse to dismiss those arguments.

Rev North

 

[Janet_S]

One poster on the link you provided said something to the effect that “I wonder if what bothers Protestants about Beckwith’s conversion is that he knows all of the Protestant stuff and chose Rome anyway”.

That is an interesting point since many Protestants (of which I am one of the liturgical variety although do not feel as I am about to describe) feel that Catholics are duped by ignorance and if only they knew the true Gospel their eyes would be opened and they would leave their false church. To have someone of Beckwith’s stature and intellect make a reasoned choice to return to Rome just looks bad.

Rev North

I think you’re right. Many non-Catholic Christians think if they just open their Bibles and show us brainwashed, pew-dwelling Catholics the “pure word of God” (which I assume they think we have never seen before) we will flee from Rome and join the nearest Bible-based non-denomination church. Since they have this view of Catholics, then it is no surprise when they are perplexed at someone who knows the Bible well and actually chooses the Catholic Church (the Church where you don’t have to use your mind–where you just follow the Pope). Yet there are a growing number of people like Francis Beckwith, high-ranking Protestant intellectuals who are coming home to the Catholic Church. It’s a great trend for us Catholics to be sure, and it inspires many to give the Catholic Church a second look.

On the other side of the coin, I must admit I would have a hard time too understanding how a Catholic (who really knew and loved his faith) could leave the Catholic Church for a Protestant denomination. The reasons may be different, of course, but I guess it works both ways.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Yes I think you are right that many Protestants would be surprised at how much scripture is read in Catholic (and Anglican Churches) during the church year. Just because they do not see them toting their bibles to church they assume that liturgical types don’t read scripture. What I would say is that our evangelical (non liturgical) brethern in general know scripture better in terms of memorization (which they do in things like AWANA from preschool age) and can list the books of the bible in order.

In terms of why some Catholics leave the church I can give a partial explanation. Many Catholics (not all) attend service by coming late and leaving right after swallowing communion. It is sad but a phenomen I witnessed in several Catholic churches I have attended. On the other hand when you go to a Southern Baptist Church for instance there is a sense of involvement in the service (most people singing), warmth, coffee and fellowship after service, Bible studies for all ages (multiple adult groups to fit any style and age group), activities throughout the week for children and adults, parenting programs, etc, etc. In other words your Christian life became a major part of your life outside of the 1 hour on Sunday. The closest I came to this environment among Catholics was when I was in the military and they had adult bible study on Sunday and fellowship after service, etc just like Protestants. The community was dynamic, fun and alive.

I think if the Catholic church were to conquer this area they would achieve much and stop inroads being made into Catholicsm here and in the South American Countries by Protestants. It is not just Catholics as here in the US many Episcopal Churches are in the same boat. It would take a major cultural shift but it CAN happen. One of the largest Catholic Churches in this area has done this. They attract people from all over the city, are dynamic, active and amazing (every bit as much as any large Southern Baptist Church). The people in the church made the culture shift and have one blessed active community from children to seniors. It is amazing to be in a large youth mass and see 67 year olds holding their hands over someone to pray for them.

Catholics need to get exited about their faith (not just defensive but downright joyous and excited about the gift they have to offer).

Rev North

 

[Cairisti]

Well, I certainly hope he stays at Baylor! I had a Catholic professor there when I went there. Not to mention that at Baylor, the second largest religious group after Baptist are Catholics! (Or was a few years ago! )

 

[Janet_S]

Well, I certainly hope he stays at Baylor! I had a Catholic professor there when I went there. Not to mention that at Baylor, the second largest religious group after Baptist are Catholics! (Or was a few years ago! )

Since Baylor is a Baptist University, would they let a Catholic teach in a religious/theological academic field?

 

[Janet_S]

Yes I think you are right that many Protestants would be surprised at how much scripture is read in Catholic (and Anglican Churches) during the church year. Just because they do not see them toting their bibles to church they assume that liturgical types don’t read scripture. What I would say is that our evangelical (non liturgical) brethern in general know scripture better in terms of memorization (which they do in things like AWANA from preschool age) and can list the books of the bible in order.

In terms of why some Catholics leave the church I can give a partial explanation. Many Catholics (not all) attend service by coming late and leaving right after swallowing communion. It is sad but a phenomen I witnessed in several Catholic churches I have attended. On the other hand when you go to a Southern Baptist Church for instance there is a sense of involvement in the service (most people singing), warmth, coffee and fellowship after service, Bible studies for all ages (multiple adult groups to fit any style and age group), activities throughout the week for children and adults, parenting programs, etc, etc. In other words your Christian life became a major part of your life outside of the 1 hour on Sunday. The closest I came to this environment among Catholics was when I was in the military and they had adult bible study on Sunday and fellowship after service, etc just like Protestants. The community was dynamic, fun and alive.

I think if the Catholic church were to conquer this area they would achieve much and stop inroads being made into Catholicsm here and in the South American Countries by Protestants. It is not just Catholics as here in the US many Episcopal Churches are in the same boat. It would take a major cultural shift but it CAN happen. One of the largest Catholic Churches in this area has done this. They attract people from all over the city, are dynamic, active and amazing (every bit as much as any large Southern Baptist Church). The people in the church made the culture shift and have one blessed active community from children to seniors. It is amazing to be in a large youth mass and see 67 year olds holding their hands over someone to pray for them.

Catholics need to get exited about their faith (not just defensive but downright joyous and excited about the gift they have to offer).

Rev North

You’re right, we should get excited–we have a lot to be excited about. I’ve noticed that the most vibrant Catholic parishes are the ones that are more orthodox (or traditional-EWTN-type Catholics).

I’ve also noticed that most of the virulent anti-Catholics on this forum are ex-Catholics. There are a lot of them too.

I agree with a lot of what you say about people leaving the CC for denominations with a greater emphasis on fellowship and parish involvement. We Catholics could do a better job with this, and there’s no reason why we don’t. But we can’t forget, there are other reasons why people leave the Church.

I have heard (from my parish priest) that the main reason why Catholics leave the Church is because they were hurt or offended by someone in the Church–a fellow Catholic or a priest or nun.

A lot of the ex-Catholics (on this forum) claim they left the CC because they wanted to be assured of their salvation and found the Catholic teaching of “remaining in a state of grace” impossible to live by. (I saw a lot of references to “assurance of salvation” in the responses to Francis Beckwith’s blog.)

And we can’t forget a lot of people leave the CC because of her moral teachings, particularly about divorce.

BTW, what did you think of Francis Beckwith before you heard this news and what do you think of his conversion story?

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is amazing, I thank God for having Francis Beckwith return to the Truth Church of Jesus Christ. I know some Protestants who knew him well are disappointed, and some Catholics may rejoice and some disapprove. I favor his return to the CC and I can’t wait to hear his testimony in EWTN’s Journey Home, and Books.

I just pray that James White will soon join the CC sometime in the future, God willing.

 

[Cairisti]

Since Baylor is a Baptist University, would they let a Catholic teach in a religious/theological academic field?

Probably because he wasn’t teaching a religion class, but Physiology of the Human Brain. But no, I doubt they’d let a Catholic teach a religion class. Anything else, yes.
(Though I do remember a religion professor who butted heads with the SBC as he held some rather “non-fundamentalist baptist” beliefs. )

 

[mayra_hart]

IAM A CRADLE CATHOLIC BUT I CAN’T TRULY SAID THAT THIS PEOPLE MAY ME GROW IN MY FAITH.PEOPLE LIKE DAVID CURRIE, SCOTT HAHN AND OTHERS HAS HELP ME FIND ANSWERS. GOD BLESS THEM ST. JUDE PRAYERSMay the Sacred Heart of Jesus be Adored, Glorified, Loved & Preserved throughout the world, now & forever. Sacred Heart of Jesus, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Worker of Miracles, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Helper of the Hopeless, please pray for me. Amen."

 

[Contarini]

Probably because he wasn’t teaching a religion class, but Physiology of the Human Brain. But no, I doubt they’d let a Catholic teach a religion class. Anything else, yes.

When they advertise for religion jobs they usually ask for someone identified with the Baptist tradition. (I find this disappointing because I think Baylor would be a wonderful school to teach at, though my wife would not want to live in Texas!) They do have a friend of mine teaching in the “Great Books” humanities program who is a recent convert to Catholicism (from Episcopalianism) after going to Baylor, and as far as I know his job has not been put in jeopardy by this. There is at least one Anglican in the English department who writes a lot about religion (David Lyle Jeffries), but he is a very evangelical Anglican.

Edwin

 

[RevDrNorth]

BTW, what did you think of Francis Beckwith before you heard this news and what do you think of his conversion story?

I had a great deal of respect for his intellect and conservative Christian stance. I was shocked when some liberal types at Baylor with a political agenda intially denied someone of his indisputable stature tenure. That caused such an outcry in the media by editorials and so on that it was revisted and he was granted tenure. Baylor ended up with egg on their face.

In terms of his conversion story…part of it reminds me of Scott Hahn and the whole issue of Christian history and the place the reality of that had in his coming to his conclusions about the Roman Catholic Church.

Rev North

 

[Janet_S]

In terms of his conversion story…part of it reminds me of Scott Hahn and the whole issue of Christian history and the place the reality of that had in his coming to his conclusions about the Roman Catholic Church.

Rev North

Also a lot like Cardinal Newman’s story too.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Also a lot like Cardinal Newman’s story too.

True…that famous quote

My grandmother was Church of Engalnd but she had a tremendous amount of respect for the Catholic Church in general and taught at a Catholic school in Canada. One of the neat things in Canada is that you elect where you want your property tax dollars to go in terms of school support. Therefore the Catholic school system was publically funded (but anyone could attend) and had buildings every bit as modern as the public school system AND their teachers were paid the SAME salary as their public school counterparts. My grandmother elected to teach in the Catholic School system (and she loved Fulton J. Sheen). On the other hand she retained a few prejudiced beliefs about Catholics such as that they were somewhat superstitous and would not think independently of their priests (ie whatever father wanted). But on the whole she really…really had a lot of respect for the RCC it was just why would anyone choose to be anything else but Church of England

Rev North

 

[Janet_S]

I wonder if Chuck Colson ever considered “swimming the Tiber.” I saw him interviewed on EWTN. He knows a lot about the CC and seems to have a lot of respect for it. He talked about Pope JP II and his encyclicals Evangelium Vitae and Veritatis Splendor. He said these encyclicals were a gift to all Christians. I know he is working with Fr Richard John Neuhaus in the group Evangelicals and Catholics Together. I read a book they published called Toward a Common Mission.

 

[RevDrNorth]

I wonder if Chuck Colson ever considered “swimming the Tiber.” I saw him interviewed on EWTN. He knows a lot about the CC and seems to have a lot of respect for it. He talked about Pope JP II and his encyclicals Evangelium Vitae and Veritatis Splendor. He said these encyclicals were a gift to all Christians. I know he is working with Fr Richard John Neuhaus in the group Evangelicals and Catholics Together. I read a book they published called Toward a Common Mission.

I am not sure but he has taken a lot of heat for being friendly towards Roman Catholics. Was a rather brave stand but I think he speaks his conscience. For some evangelicals…Catholic is barely better than Mormon.

A friend of my father’s once asked me what type of girl I might marry. I said she had to be intelligent and yada…yada. He said “What about faith”? I said “She needed to be Christian”. He then asked, “You would not marry a Catholic would you”. I said yes. He looked shocked and said “But they are a cult”. My father did not care as he was agnostic (his friend was working on him). I was appalled but as I grew older discovered he was not isolated. I met people in the army who beleived that there was a Jesuit secretly running the Vatican.

Rev North

 

[Janet_S]

I am not sure but he has taken a lot of heat for being friendly towards Roman Catholics. Was a rather brave stand but I think he speaks his conscience. For some evangelicals…Catholic is barely better than Mormon.

A friend of my father’s once asked me what type of girl I might marry. I said she had to be intelligent and yada…yada. He said “What about faith”? I said “She needed to be Christian”. He then asked, “You would not marry a Catholic would you”. I said yes. He looked shocked and said “But they are a cult”. My father did not care as he was agnostic (his friend was working on him). I was appalled but as I grew older discovered he was not isolated. I met people in the army who beleived that there was a Jesuit secretly running the Vatican.

Rev North

There are a lot of Jesuit conspiracy theories out there. The American founding father, John Adams, said this:

“I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits…Shall we not have regular swarms of them here, in as many disguises as only a king of the Gypsies can assume, dressed as printers, publishers, writers and schoolmasters? If ever there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is this society of Loyola’s. Nevertheless, we are compelled by our system of religious toleration to offer them an asylum.” (Letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 5, 1816)