Eminent Evangelical Philosopher and Academic (Francis Beckwith) Swims Tiber

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RevDrNorth said:
I am not sure but he has taken a lot of heat for being friendly towards Roman Catholics. Was a rather brave stand but I think he speaks his conscience. For some evangelicals…Catholic is barely better than Mormon.

Rev North
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If you go into a Christian (non-Catholic) book store you usually find Catholic books (if there are any) next to those of the LDS’s and JW’s (the other “cult religions”).

I heard Billy Graham also took a lot of heat for being friendly towards Catholics.
 
Janet_S said:
If you go into a Christian (non-Catholic) book store you usually find Catholic books (if there are any) next to those of the LDS’s and JW’s (the other “cult religions”).

I heard Billy Graham also took a lot of heat for being friendly towards Catholics.
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True Janet. There are some who consider the great Billy Graham to be far too ecumenical and moderate. Heck…he spoke highly of the witness of John Paul II as JP II neared the end of his life.

I am sure that Francis Beckwith has the potential to be a very articulate witness for the RC faith. Not that this will in and of itself change minds but who knows…it may leave some people thinking about what would get such an intelligent Christian philosopher to move to Rome. Of course the lunatic fringe of Protestantism that thinks Jack Chick publishes factual text books will just feel that whoever Beckwith was (cause they don’t read much but their KJV of the bible that God himself dictated to King James and their Chick comic books) he must have been decevied by Satan and was drawn to the whore of Baylon where he now serves his Jesuit masters and yada…yada…magic cookies…yada…yada. :rolleyes: Jist uh goes to shew ya that them thar edukational larning places and cemetaries where mainline clergy gets their education is pits of Satan (probably also run out of the Vatican some place). Hmmm come to thunk of it…Beckwith was probably a Jesuit plant…ya…that’s the ticket…he has been in a sleeper cell for years uh waiting to be sprung to deceive God’s people and take them down the road to uturnal damnation. Dern them Catlicks is good…slippery…people.:eek:

Rev North
 
RevDrNorth said:
True Janet. There are some who consider the great Billy Graham to be far too ecumenical and moderate. Heck…he spoke highly of the witness of John Paul II as JP II neared the end of his life.

I am sure that Francis Beckwith has the potential to be a very articulate witness for the RC faith. Not that this will in and of itself change minds but who knows…it may leave some people thinking about what would get such an intelligent Christian philosopher to move to Rome. Of course the lunatic fringe of Protestantism that thinks Jack Chick publishes factual text books will just feel that whoever Beckwith was (cause they don’t read much but their KJV of the bible that God himself dictated to King James and their Chick comic books) he must have been decevied by Satan and was drawn to the whore of Baylon where he now serves his Jesuit masters and yada…yada…magic cookies…yada…yada. :rolleyes: Jist uh goes to shew ya that them thar edukational larning places and cemetaries where mainline clergy gets their education is pits of Satan (probably also run out of the Vatican some place). Hmmm come to thunk of it…Beckwith was probably a Jesuit plant…ya…that’s the ticket…he has been in a sleeper cell for years uh waiting to be sprung to deceive God’s people and take them down the road to uturnal damnation. Dern them Catlicks is good…slippery…people.:eek:

Rev North
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I think you’re on to something. Do you think the “real” Francis Beckwith was abducted by aliens and replaced with an identical robot?

Or do you think maybe it might be like the old “Mission Impossible” show, that the “real” Dr Beckwith is being held hostage in a 3rd world country and the person who now claims to be Dr Beckwith is actually wearing a rubber mask, and if you take it off you’ll find a Jesuit underneath?

Or maybe he had ECT or a partial lobotomy, lost his memory, and was brainwashed to believing Catholicism was correct by–Jesuits!!

I guess we’ll have to wait for the next Chick tract to tell us the real scoop.

(BTW, I assume you went to the seminary. What kind of grades did you get in JackChickology?)
 
Janet_S said:
I think you’re on to something. Do you think the “real” Francis Beckwith was abducted by aliens and replaced with an identical robot?

Or do you think maybe it might be like the old “Mission Impossible” show, that the “real” Dr Beckwith is being held hostage in a 3rd world country and the person who now claims to be Dr Beckwith is actually wearing a rubber mask, and if you take it off you’ll find a Jesuit underneath?

Or maybe he had ECT or a partial lobotomy, lost his memory, and was brainwashed to believing Catholicism was correct by–Jesuits!!

I guess we’ll have to wait for the next Chick tract to tell us the real scoop.

(BTW, I assume you went to the seminary. What kind of grades did you get in JackChickology?)
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No…thankfully my seminary preferred Grudem to Jack Chick as a Systematic Theology text.😃

It is simply amazing that people would read those comic books and believe them. We could not even pass them out in the military becuase of their identifcation as hate literature (anti semetic, anti catholic).

North
 
Since this thread is getting a little bit off-topic anyway, I’d like to throw another question out there, one that I don’t want to give the high visibility of its own thread.

Dr. Beckwith is a very high-profile, well-educated Evangelical who reverted to the Catholic faith. I’m curious: are there any examples of:
  1. High-profile, well-educated Catholics who convert to a Protestant faith?
  2. High-profile, well-educated Catholic converts who later revert to their original Protestant faith?
From my perspective (admittedly skewed) I don’t know of any such stories, and I’m curious if there are any such stories. I’m only really concerned with post-Reformation instances; no one need mention Julian the Apostate or anything 🙂

If you feel more comfortable replying to me via private message (if you fear that providing public answers to this question might cause some to stumble) by all means, feel free.

Thanks,
Jeremy
 
jemfinch said:
Since this thread is getting a little bit off-topic anyway, I’d like to throw another question out there, one that I don’t want to give the high visibility of its own thread.

Dr. Beckwith is a very high-profile, well-educated Evangelical who reverted to the Catholic faith. I’m curious: are there any examples of:
  1. High-profile, well-educated Catholics who convert to a Protestant faith?
  2. High-profile, well-educated Catholic converts who later revert to their original Protestant faith?
From my perspective (admittedly skewed) I don’t know of any such stories, and I’m curious if there are any such stories. I’m only really concerned with post-Reformation instances; no one need mention Julian the Apostate or anything 🙂

If you feel more comfortable replying to me via private message (if you fear that providing public answers to this question might cause some to stumble) by all means, feel free.

Thanks,
Jeremy
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First, I don’t know of any examples you asked about.

But your post does remind me of something I read in Surprised by Truth 2 (page 82). This is a challenge issued by Fr Ray Ryland to his Episcopal friends:

"Show me one Roman Catholic who has really understood his Faith, devoutly practiced it, loved the Church, and never dreamed of leaving it, yet who, through serious study, discovered that the Episcopal Church is in fact the one true Church, the Church that Jesus Christ established, the Church that has been entrusted with the fullness of Christ’s truth and means of grace, the Church that Jesus Christ has authorized to speak authoritatively and even infallibly in His name. Show me a Catholic like that who was therefore compelled by the direction of the Holy Spirit to enter the Episcopal Church. Show me just one Catholic convert to the Episcopal Church of whom all this is true.

I issue this challenge serenely, knowing it will never be met."
 
Janet_S said:
First, I don’t know of any examples you asked about.

But your post does remind me of something I read in Surprised by Truth 2 (page 82). This is a challenge issued by Fr Ray Ryland to his Episcopal friends:

"Show me one Roman Catholic who has really understood his Faith, devoutly practiced it, loved the Church, and never dreamed of leaving it, yet who, through serious study, discovered that the Episcopal Church is in fact the one true Church, the Church that Jesus Christ established, the Church that has been entrusted with the fullness of Christ’s truth and means of grace, the Church that Jesus Christ has authorized to speak authoritatively and even infallibly in His name. Show me a Catholic like that who was therefore compelled by the direction of the Holy Spirit to enter the Episcopal Church. Show me just one Catholic convert to the Episcopal Church of whom all this is true.

I issue this challenge serenely, knowing it will never be met."
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Very interesting challenge…

Rev North
 
RevDrNorth said:
In terms of why some Catholics leave the church I can give a partial explanation. Many Catholics (not all) attend service by coming late and leaving right after swallowing communion. It is sad but a phenomen I witnessed in several Catholic churches I have attended. On the other hand when you go to a Southern Baptist Church for instance there is a sense of involvement in the service (most people singing), warmth, coffee and fellowship after service, Bible studies for all ages (multiple adult groups to fit any style and age group), activities throughout the week for children and adults, parenting programs, etc, etc. In other words your Christian life became a major part of your life outside of the 1 hour on Sunday. The closest I came to this environment among Catholics was when I was in the military and they had adult bible study on Sunday and fellowship after service, etc just like Protestants. The community was dynamic, fun and alive.

I think if the Catholic church were to conquer this area they would achieve much and stop inroads being made into Catholicsm here and in the South American Countries by Protestants. It is not just Catholics as here in the US many Episcopal Churches are in the same boat. It would take a major cultural shift but it CAN happen. One of the largest Catholic Churches in this area has done this. They attract people from all over the city, are dynamic, active and amazing (every bit as much as any large Southern Baptist Church). The people in the church made the culture shift and have one blessed active community from children to seniors. It is amazing to be in a large youth mass and see 67 year olds holding their hands over someone to pray for them.

Catholics need to get exited about their faith (not just defensive but downright joyous and excited about the gift they have to offer).

Rev North
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Uhhhh…I’m not sure how big a problem this is, at least in my parish. Only handful of people come late and it seems accidental, also fewer people leave right after Communion. Most of the church stays until the last song is done. There’s also a bunch of people who stick around and talk(although they should move to another building instead of the church). I in no way see this problem at our parish…
 
Ahimsa said:
Do you include priests?:rolleyes:
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The only priests who have converted who have written books on the matter usually misunderstand some fundamental doctrines and practices of the Church. One quoted in Fundamentalism and Catholicism said that he thought to think freely “without the help of Mother Church was not sin.” If this former priest really thought to think freely was sinful, is he well-educated in the Catholic faith?

Honestly, for 2,000 years we’ve had free-thinkers(granted many of them were heretics). You can freely think…just not pronounce ideas contrary to Catholic doctrine.
 
Ahimsa said:
Do you include priests?:rolleyes:
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Well… It depends, there are priests and there are priests. I would say show me a priest that has converted and I would have to ask, which order, how old? Some of the older diocesan priests do not have the level of theological education than the ones coming out of seminary these days. I’m only speaking of US seminaries I do not know much about seminaries outside of our country.

I would rephrase the question to something like: Show me a religious thinker of the order of Avery Dulles, or Mr Becket <sp?> that have converted to protestantism?.

In His Love

A Catholic Deacon
 
Ahimsa said:
Do you include priests?:rolleyes:
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Now that you mention it, I know of a well-educated priest (canon lawyer, educated in Rome) who left the priesthood because he had a girlfriend and wanted to get married. Now he is going to a Episcopal church (and has preached there) and plans to get married (to a different woman) next month. He will get married in the Episcopal church. I haven’t talked to him, so I’m not sure about his future plans.

It seems, though, that he left not because of a lack of knowledge, but because he decided not to live according to the Church’s moral guidelines. He’s probably not the only knowledgable Catholic to leave for a moral reason rather than a theological one.
 
Janet_S said:
Since Baylor is a Baptist University, would they let a Catholic teach in a religious/theological academic field?
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Good question and it looks like the sharks have the same question. This quote is a comment on Beckwith’s web blog:

As a member of ETS since 1982, I was shocked to hear of your decisions–to convert to Catholicism and to resign from the Presidency of ETS. …
… I wonder if this means you will stop teaching at Baylor, a Southern Baptist school, for the same reasons you resigned from ETS (i.e., you wouldn’t have received tenure if you had been a Roman Catholic at the time)?

Posted by: Bob Wilkin, Ph.D., Grace Evangelical Society | May 8, 2007 2:36 PM
 
Eliza10 said:
Good question and it looks like the sharks have the same question. This quote is a comment on Beckwith’s web blog:

As a member of ETS since 1982, I was shocked to hear of your decisions–to convert to Catholicism and to resign from the Presidency of ETS. …
… I wonder if this means you will stop teaching at Baylor, a Southern Baptist school, for the same reasons you resigned from ETS (i.e., you wouldn’t have received tenure if you had been a Roman Catholic at the time)?

Posted by: Bob Wilkin, Ph.D., Grace Evangelical Society | May 8, 2007 2:36 PM
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Ah, but Baylor isn’t run by the Southern Baptists. Until about 1993 or thereabouts, it was run by the Texas General Baptist Convention which was moderate. Then the president of the University, Herb Reynolds(bless him) declared Baylor independant from the SBC and the TGBC. (It created quite a stir!). Baylor isn’t strictly Baptist anymore. 😉

Hopefully, the sharks will disperse.
 
Cairisti said:
Ah, but Baylor isn’t run by the Southern Baptists. Until about 1993 or thereabouts, it was run by the Texas General Baptist Convention which was moderate. Then the president of the University, Herb Reynolds(bless him) declared Baylor independant from the SBC and the TGBC. (It created quite a stir!). Baylor isn’t strictly Baptist anymore. 😉

Hopefully, the sharks will disperse.
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I’m real glad to hear that. Its hard enough to convert and give up position, without having to find a new job at the same time too.
 
Of course a famous Catholic priest did leave the Catholic Church and become an Episcopal Priest…namely Matthew Fox. Yes I know not really fair since he was hardly an orthodox Catholic Priest. 😃 (Cosmic Mass and all)

I hope Beckwith keeps his job. There has been a move to return Baylor to its strong Southern Baptist roots. The last President was pushing this along with stregthening their position to climb the academic rankings. His position ran smack dab into secualrists who were more than a little ticked. This more left wing group was I think blamed for the shocking denial of tenure to Beckwith who was a very well known an respected academic (what would have been a prize for most instutions). The outcry was such that of course he was eventually granted tenure on appeal. Of course I imagine some feel betrayed now that he went over to the Roman Catholic Church which some barely consider Christian.

North
 
RevDrNorth said:
Of course a famous Catholic priest did leave the Catholic Church and become an Episcopal Priest…namely Matthew Fox. Yes I know not really fair since he was hardly an orthodox Catholic Priest. 😃 (Cosmic Mass and all)

I hope Beckwith keeps his job. There has been a move to return Baylor to its strong Southern Baptist roots. The last President was pushing this along with stregthening their position to climb the academic rankings. His position ran smack dab into secualrists who were more than a little ticked. This more left wing group was I think blamed for the shocking denial of tenure to Beckwith who was a very well known an respected academic (what would have been a prize for most instutions). The outcry was such that of course he was eventually granted tenure on appeal. Of course I imagine some feel betrayed now that he went over to the Roman Catholic Church which some barely consider Christian.

North
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Did you know he( Beckwith) has a new book, Defending Life, what else have you heard about him lately?
D.
 
Janet_S said:
I

(BTW, I assume you went to the seminary. What kind of grades did you get in JackChickology?)
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No seminaries would put stock in Jack Chick. Nor does Jack Chick put any stock in seminaries.

Edwin
 
Janet_S said:
First, I don’t know of any examples you asked about.

But your post does remind me of something I read in Surprised by Truth 2 (page 82). This is a challenge issued by Fr Ray Ryland to his Episcopal friends:

"Show me one Roman Catholic who has really understood his Faith, devoutly practiced it, loved the Church, and never dreamed of leaving it, yet who, through serious study, discovered that the Episcopal Church is in fact the one true Church, the Church that Jesus Christ established, the Church that has been entrusted with the fullness of Christ’s truth and means of grace, the Church that Jesus Christ has authorized to speak authoritatively and even infallibly in His name. Show me a Catholic like that who was therefore compelled by the direction of the Holy Spirit to enter the Episcopal Church. Show me just one Catholic convert to the Episcopal Church of whom all this is true.

I issue this challenge serenely, knowing it will never be met."
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The problem is that the “challenge” is really no more than a self-defined truism. The response by Catholics to any Catholic who converts to a Protestant faith will be: (1) he didn’t truly understand the Catholic faith or (2)he acted on the basis of personal sinful motives. Like many things, Catholics simply “define themselves” out of the problem.
 
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