Emotional Intelligence

[Xantippe]

I was thinking about him too. IIRC he was a great salesperson but a horrible manager - probably because sales could let him rely on the stuff he had and reveal less of what he didn’t. But more social interactions in an office environment was disastrous. (And his dating life kind of worked the same way - lots of first dates, but except for a few also incredibly odd women it ended there.)

Exactly.

There is a stereotype about men putting up with awful behavior from a beautiful woman just because she’s beautiful, but in my experience there’s very few men who let that go on too long (and other men will make fun of him for it, and from what I’ve overheard I don’t think there’s jealousy involved. Bad behavior is a turn-off to both sexes IME.)

There’s that old (non-CAF) quote about, “There’s no woman so beautiful that there isn’t a guy that’s tired of her ****.”

 

[Xantippe]

Maybe you are exaggerating here, but I can honestly say I have never, ever met a person who did that to me. To me that sounds like fairy tales, not real life. I know some very nice, very attractive, very charismatic people, but nope, that has never happened.
**
Right.

I don’t warm up to people right away (and that was even more true in my dating years).

I also suspect this has something to do with the fact that I have never been better than of average appearance, and I’ve never done the bar or club scene and people with evil intentions have almost never found me worth their while.

So, this is a bit like hearing reports from big game hunting. Occasionally plausible, but I’ve never seen it myself.
**
I suspect a feeling like that probably originates in the person who experiences it and has less to do with any objective quality of the other person, e.g. some young women may just be more prone to throw their underwear at guys playing music on stage, and while that’s a weird phenomenon that has happened, it’s still weird and the people who engage in it are not representative of the general population.

Right.

Or people who join the cult and swallow the kool-aid. Yes, a lot of people did it, but how many people heard the kool-aid call and said, “That’s crazy,” first?

**Well, by the time you got the final kool-aid call, you’d moved to another continent to an isolated settlement and experienced sleep deprivation, non-stop physical labor and several pretend kool-aid calls. Oh, and it was not optional. But even so, a number of people that were there still managed to be out in the woods “having picnics” at the time of the final massacre.

(By the way, Life and Death of the People’s Temple is a great documentary.)
**
I think you’re talking about extreme situations and applying them to the populace at large, and I have a suspicion you are overstepping. It’s nice to be told I must have great self-esteem or be unusual for these things to not have the hold on me that they might for others, but I don’t think I’m that unusual. (Is that a persuasion technique you are using? )

Yes. I feel like a lot of the bar and club based-behavioral analysis is off when it’s applied to normal life. I think I’ve spent MAYBE 5 whole hours in a bar my whole life, and it was nearly all having a sandwich with friends during daylight hours, not hanging around waiting for strange men to notice me. Ewww.

I think a lot of the bar and club-based analysis misses the obvious–dude, she was there to meet men. You’re a man and not obviously repellent, so you qualified. Woohoo!

 

[GEddie]

I had heard that diplomacy was saying, “Nice doggie,” until one could find a rock.

 

[chevalier]

Yes. I have worked hard at that. I used to be much more permissive, but honestly that had to do with me and my insecurities and lack of training in how to say no, rather than about other people.

Been to that training too.

Maybe you are exaggerating here, but I can honestly say I have never, ever met a person who did that to me. To me that sounds like fairy tales, not real life. I know some very nice, very attractive, very charismatic people, but nope, that has never happened.

Well, it was a figurative reference, but it certainly is possible for attraction to manifest itself in that way. The point is, when under the influence of strong attraction we’re no longer acting like normal, as a rule. On a chemical level, it’s usually similar to amphetamine use (dopamine, specifically, which is a natural counterpart) or the even funkier phenethylamine, which is the real jazz. Neurotransmitters do that to people, they mess up one’s ordinary balance. Then there’s the tolerance and bonding assisted by oxytocins and the beta-endorphin effect of a mellower loving feeling. In short, attracted people, those in love, or those who simply love you (friendship is a feeling too) just don’t act the same.

Then there’s always the fear of alienating an attractive prospect, which makes people also more tolerant of others’ failures and suddenly all the more ‘open-minded’ about their usual boundaries. But people are reluctant to admit this, and it generally flatters us to think of ourselves that we are immune to this type of thing. We prefer to dress it up and pass it for something else, something that makes us feel wiser, nobler.

I suspect a feeling like that probably originates in the person who experiences it and has less to do with any objective quality of the other person, e.g. some young women may just be more prone to throw their underwear at guys playing music on stage, and while that’s a weird phenomenon that has happened, it’s still weird and the people who engage in it are not representative of the general population.

On the contrary, I think they are very representative, only the circumstances in which they found themselves were somewhat unique — including not just the time and place but maybe their own more subjective personal circumstances (family situation, situation school or work etc.). The rockstar example is a far extreme, but on a lesser scale a more normal, ordinary woman might more easily overlook a particularly attractive guy (but not rockstar level):

— asking her out too early after they met;
— taking a sit at her table without asking, and starting a conversation;
— starting a conversation at all, in those cultures or circles where you just don’t do that with strangers unless someone else has already introduced you;
— using cheesy, corny pickup lines and any other such formulaic devices of which the meaning is obvious to most people;
— making overt allusions to sex, romance or dating despite not being on that footing yet (or just strangers with no footing whatsoever));
— commenting on her looks or something else relating to her appearance or manner or theoretical desireability as a potential mate (in general or for that man specifically);
— trying to hold her hand, kiss her etc. where she normally wouldn’t be ready to;
— territorial gesture.

The particular man’s attractiveness to the particular woman influences all of the above and more/U], and only the most upright individuals really play by their own book in those circumstances — as opposed to just claiming or hoping that they would (or being reluctant to admit that exceptions have happened from the general rule). The same certainly goes for men. We certainly are more forgiving of any breaches of conventional etiquette and social mores when they relate to a woman showing interest in us*, but especially an attractive woman. Notably attractive, single and interested in us, let alone when that interest in mutual.

• In this we may be different from women, actually, as in any woman’s interest will normally be regarded by a man as flattering, even if she isn’t attractive to us and even when we disagree with her method of showing or pursuing it. But if the woman is really attractive to us, then we just don’t think about agreeing or disagreeing with her methods (if anything, we are likely to be flattered). Exceptions apply.

But for all the differences women are not wholly immune to this, either.

I think you’re talking about extreme situations and applying them to the populace at large, and I have a suspicion you are overstepping.

Most ordinary people do a couple of extraordinary things throughout their lifetimes, especially at a young age. And all those people who do the more outstanding things derive from the population at large anyway. They are neighbours, siblings, classmates, coworkers, they didn’t fall from the moon.

It’s nice to be told I must have great self-esteem or be unusual for these things to not have the hold on me that they might for others, but I don’t think I’m that unusual. (Is that a persuasion technique you are using? )

Nah, not really. Perhaps just a bit more conscious use of courtesy. But it’s true regardless, since most people act like I described, and those who make a point of acting differently because of religious, moral, philosophical or etiquettal reasons, or something like personal or family honour or upgringing are an exception. I would say most people have standards and try to keep them, sure, but those who take it to an extreme are outliers, not very numerous as compared to everybody else.

 

[chevalier]

Yes. I feel like a lot of the bar and club based-behavioral analysis is off when it’s applied to normal life. I think I’ve spent MAYBE 5 whole hours in a bar my whole life, and it was nearly all having a sandwich with friends during daylight hours, not hanging around waiting for strange men to notice me. Ewww.

Scale it down, remove the outliers, and you’ll have ordinary everyday life right there, which includes meeting people in parks, streets, shops, churchyards, theatres and cinemas and museums and cafeterias, other public spaces, obviously at work, school and any- and everywhere else. In many of those situations people, whether male or female, make if not an open pass at someone, then at least attempts at showing or gauging interest, with a view to winning the attention of a handsome specimen of the other sex.

I wasn’t referring to bars and clubs anyway.

I think a lot of the bar and club-based analysis misses the obvious–dude, she was there to meet men. You’re a man and not obviously repellent, so you qualified. Woohoo!

Just proving my point that your attractiveness determines (largely, though not exclusively) the success of your moves.

There’s that old (non-CAF) quote about, “There’s no woman so beautiful that there isn’t a guy that’s tired of her ****.”

But to have had enough, he needs first to have had a lot of it, which requires time. The asterisks will normally manifest themselves clearly only some time into an existing relationship. Not yet when the two people are examining the match tentatively and deciding to have a go at it.

 

[chevalier]

I was thinking about him too. IIRC he was a great salesperson but a horrible manager - probably because sales could let him rely on the stuff he had and reveal less of what he didn’t. But more social interactions in an office environment was disastrous. (And his dating life kind of worked the same way - lots of first dates, but except for a few also incredibly odd women it ended there.)

Story of my life!

When I was thinking about my life I was thinking that sure, I might see a person who is incredibly physically attractive (tall, symmetrical features, clean, no obvious disfigurement), but their “advantage” in social interactions could be very limited. It could be seconds until they open their mouths (either because they say something stupid or reveal they haven’t brushed their teeth lately), or lean in too close, or commit some other clear social faux pas. I don’t think that makes me unusual, though I am more reserved than others.

Well. Let’s say the man’s more than just simply attractive — to that one particular woman of course (to another he might be repulsive) — and the woman is not a more reserved type. Doesn’t the ‘limited advantage’ become bigger? I would say at least big enough to get away in otherwise close cases, only bordering on impropriety. Some softening of a person’s usual, normal limits (they obviously don’t disappear altogether) is what this is all about, all that is needed.

There is a stereotype about men putting up with awful behavior from a beautiful woman just because she’s beautiful, but in my experience there’s very few men who let that go on too long

Yes, of course, usually, well, it depends just how bad it is. Her advantage in looks will probably continue to make the man more tolerant of her faults, maybe in a decreasing degree over time, but always in some degree.

Also, we were talking about those complaing guys, remember? What they had been referring to was the earliest, most initial stages. At that point the charm is only beginning to unfold, so it’s a far cry from wearing out.

Bad behavior is a turn-off to both sexes IME.

Yes, of course, but it’s still just one factor.

 

[Xantippe]

Scale it down, remove the outliers, and you’ll have ordinary everyday life right there, which includes meeting people in parks, streets, shops, churchyards, theatres and cinemas and museums and cafeterias, other public spaces, obviously at work, school and any- and everywhere else. In many of those situations people, whether male or female, make if not an open pass at someone, then at least attempts at showing or gauging interest, with a view to winning the attention of a handsome specimen of the other sex.

I wasn’t referring to bars and clubs anyway.

**Even worse.

I’ve always made a point of not speaking to strangers in those sorts of public settings, at least not beyond, “nice weather we’re having”. “Don’t speak to strangers” is Girl 101. I didn’t have an explicit rule at the time, but I never dated anyone I hadn’t either met through friends or through volunteering or a church group.

So, your methods aren’t going to work with a traditional, cautious or prudent woman. Which might explain why you have so much dating experience…

That may sound a little mean, but there is a huge mismatch between the sort of woman you say you want and the methods you have been using to find one.
**

 

[chevalier]

Even worse.

I’ve always made a point of not speaking to strangers in those sorts of public settings, at least not beyond, “nice weather we’re having”. “Don’t speak to strangers” is Girl 101. I didn’t have an explicit rule at the time, but I never dated anyone I hadn’t either met through friends or through volunteering or a church group.

So, your methods aren’t going to work with a traditional, cautious or prudent woman. Which might explain why you have so much dating experience…

That may sound a little mean, but there is a huge mismatch between the sort of woman you say you want and the methods you have been using to find one.

No meanness perceived, but where exactly have I mentioned my normal methods (if I even have any) apart from a couple of dashing exploits of an earlier and stupider stage in life that make for a good nostalgic tale in one’s middle age?

 

[EasterJoy]

No meanness perceived, but where exactly have I mentioned my normal methods (if I even have any) apart from a couple of dashing exploits of an earlier and stupider stage in life that make for a good nostalgic tale in one’s middle age?

Chev, part of emotional intelligence is that when someone is just not into your view of things, just let it go. Make a note and keep moving. Your intellectual intelligence might be spoiling for a chance to be right or the Wile E Coyote in you might want to gain your goal by sheer force of will, but your emotional intelligence can see where the conversation is going emotionally and either tries another tack or switches to a more likely conversational partner.

Emotional intelligence is very practical and very empirical. It navigates the emotions of others as a mountaineer navigates a mountain. When someone summits a mountain, when they “conquer” a peak, the mountain has not lost. Only the climber can fail; the mountain cannot lose. Likewise, other people’s emotions can’t be wrong, even if the person is not a good fit for a relationship because of them. They are what they are. The emotionally intelligent person respects that and works with what the emotional world gives him or her.

 

[chevalier]

Chev, part of emotional intelligence is that when someone is just not into your view of things, just let it go. Make a note and keep moving. Your intellectual intelligence might be spoiling for a chance to be right or the Wile E Coyote in you might want to gain your goal by sheer force of will, but your emotional intelligence can see where the conversation is going emotionally and either tries another tack or switches to a more likely conversational partner.

Emotional intelligence is very practical and very empirical. It navigates the emotions of others as a mountaineer navigates a mountain. When someone summits a mountain, when they “conquer” a peak, the mountain has not lost. Only the climber can fail; the mountain cannot lose. Likewise, other people’s emotions can’t be wrong, even if the person is not a good fit for a relationship because of them. They are what they are. The emotionally intelligent person respects that and works with what the emotional world gives him or her.

And the point is?

 

[grasscutter]

I would very much like to get back to the OP’s question about the ways that emotional intelligence can be applied to advance the goal of success in the workplace.

Personally, I find that when I’m employed I can easily “read the room”, however, I’m not so good with job interviews. I think that stems from my lack of EI when first meeting someone and it tends to develop after getting to know people. So, any emotional intelligence I have seems to need a period of intellectual discernment of the various people around me. Which I guess means that I basically lack emotional intelligence…

To the off-topic attractiveness thing, sometimes one doesn’t get hired for a job that one is intellectually and physical more than capable of doing is because there is a weird assumption that “why would such a pretty woman want to work in this trade?”.

Anyway, our appearance (besides being off-topic) is pretty much russian roulette with the gene pool.

 

[Xantippe]

I would very much like to get back to the OP’s question about the ways that emotional intelligence can be applied to advance the goal of success in the workplace.

You’re in luck–she has opened up a new thread!

 

[grasscutter]

Xantippe:
Well, sure. Except it was this topic that interested me, not the thread that is now being started. I think that a lot of us struggle with emotional intelligence and a lot of us find it easy. It would be good to exchange helpful ideas back and forth.

 

[Aunt_Raven]

I have a talented, high-IQ, even charismatic, family member who totally lacks emotional intelligence because he has high-functioning Asberger’s Syndrome-- a neurological condition that prevents a person from functioning well with others because they have little or no emotional intelligence. Some very bright people are born with Asberger’s-- it is a type of Autism. My relative doesnt mean to be totally self-centered, however he talks endlessly about himself and his interests, :yeah_me: --but is bored when others talk about their own and sees no value in even politely pretending to be interested. :yawn:

He is ultra-sensitive to criticism, but is undiplomatic in his talk to or about others-- he doesn’t understand that the truth is more acceptable when said at the right time and place, and sometimes shouldn’t be mentioned at all. He never learns from his social gaffes, :banghead: and wonders why he is unpopular. There is no cure for Asberger’s, however it is possible for such a person to learn-- actually to be mentored by another who patiently explains to them how their behavior is perceived by others – to “pretend” to be emotionally intelligent in their social interactions, simply because people like them better.

My clueless but high IQ relative was convinced that he had no problem-- simply thought that other people simply didn’t like him; until I convinced him to take a test for Asberger’s and then he began to realize he needed some coaching to get along with others better. He doesn’t find this easy as it doesn’t come naturally, but he is doing better at work than he used to.

 

[EasterJoy]

And the point is?

You don’t know? Quit* arguing* with her, as if her perceptions were up for debate.

 

[pensmama87]

You don’t know? Quit* arguing* with her, as if her perceptions were up for debate.

This thread is a really good example, actually, of that - I thought we started off having a nice conversation, but it got really antagonistic (at least in my perception). Nobody likes being told, “Oh, that’s so nice, but you probably just feel that way because you’re so special.” It’s condescending, and no longer friendly but adversarial.

Internet communication is a very different animal than real-life conversation, but that’s not a tack that’s going to work in real life either, whether you’re talking romantic interest or coworker or friendship.