Empathy towards women?

[severus68]

Bolding mine.

Oh yes? You think JPII would side with Radical (the term I used in my post) Feminists eh? Heh heh heh…

I was referring to your statement re mucking up re that Bible provision. Please try to follow. Rolling your eyes and your heh hehs do not further any arguement.

 

[Byrnwiga]

Hello everyone,
I saw this in the internet and wanted to get your opinion on this:
abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/men-machine-creates-sensation-labor-18283518
Do you think that men would feel more empathy towards women if they could experience the pains women feel during childbirth?

Also, would the use of this kind of machine be considered morally neutral?

God bless,
D.

I was reminded of this particular anecdote:

Among the Huichol tribe of Mexico, to make the father a partner in the mother’s pain, a string would be tied around his testicles; the mother would pull the tether as each contraction peaked

• Tina Cassidy, “Birth: The Surprising History of How We Are Born”, p. 201

 

[Baelor]

Silly me! I always fing it amusing and revealing when the opposition attacks my posting/english techniques rather than the actual content.

I offered aid in addition to comments on the actual content. Your statement is factually inaccurate, and I will not call you a liar outright because I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. This will only happen once.

I am surprised you did not add ‘neener neeener neener’

I am not.

Is your experience Universal?

Irrelevant. I never claimed it was universal.

Good Heavens. The theories of ‘The Father of Modern Psychiatry’ are just totally pointless - eh?

First of all, Freud was not a psychiatrist, and in fact did not use drugs as a modern psychiatrist would in his approach. Please do more research on him before spouting more inaccuracies.

Second, Archimedes, Aristotle, Hildegaard von Bingen, Galileo, Newton, and so forth were all pioneering scientists. That does not make all their theories correct, nor does it make any of their theories entirely correct.

Third, I never said that they were entirely pointless, see the second point.

Because you say so eh? Methinks many would at least debate such - yes?

No, because there is no reason to debate something that has been refined over years by the scientific process. I am not the one asserting this randomly; any biography or website about Freud that references its sources and discusses his legacy will also discuss which of his theories are still in force.

Actually - yes- there was indeed ad hominen. The poster that I responded to called down the 'Angels of contemporary thinking" to rebute my assertions so to speak. The assertions were not buttressed by objective thinking with attending statistics.

That is completely untrue. I read the post. The attack against you came after a thorough discussion of the point she was making.

As for the pleasure factor, I simply assert that is not the defining characteristic of the issue. Sheeesh.

I reject your simple assertion.

Underlining mine. Ok. lets look closely at just what is wrong with this statement. 1) If Female circumcison is practiced exclusively , as you say in third World countries then I would believe it logically follows that Female circumcision is less practiced than male Circumcison as male circumcision is practiced in third world countries and rampantly in the western world as well… yes?

Yes.

Not that majority of the crime of circumcison lesssens the atrocity of it all…

Correct, which is why your “problem” with my post falls apart completely. The discussion has very clearly been about female circumcision vs. male circumcision in principle and in practical cases, not about which is more widespread. Abortion is worse than murder, but that statement makes no reference to how widespread they are.

1. The sanitary issue does indded occur to men as well. This what I am saying.

Male circumcision is not always unsanitary, however.

I do indeed assert that the Female corresponding issue of Genital Mutilation is heinous. That does not take away from the Male issue. I reiterate. Presenting Male issues does not equate automatically to devaluing Female issues. Shheeeeesh

I never claimed this.

 

[faithfully]

I think that this thing is overblown because if there was a way to simulate the feeling of being kicked in the groin for women, it would be done as a publicity stunt as well.

I’m not sure if PCOS is mentioned earlier in this thread, or another. However, this is a condition in which many women who have it, myself included, develop cysts on their ovaries where an egg develops but it is not ever or perhaps properly released.

As you may know, many women can tell when they ovulate, because they feel a tiny pinch when the egg is released. Others don’t feel anything at all.

Given that testes and ovaries are quite similar organs I suspect for those of use who have experienced a ruptured cyst, the pain is perhaps similar to a kick to the groin. In that it generally produces a similar result.

As a woman who has been through fertility drama, I’ve watched my own folicular (sp) development. You may be quite surprised how large the pocket (for lack of the exact term) gets before the teeny, tiny egg is released. The untrained eye can easily see and identify the activity on an ultrasound. The “pinch” is not surprising.

Now, I can tell you, this only from personal experience, I once had an ab. x-ray… and a huge cyst was noted. So large, my dr. was very concerned about the potential rupture. I was sent for repetitive follow up to determine if surgical removal, possible removal of the ovary was necessary. In that instance it just dissolved. Mostly normal, and uneventful.

However, I, another time went through a cycle in which I became violently sick. I thought I had the flu or food poisoning. When I finally realized it was a cyst that was to rupture, it was too late. Here’s the TMI: An explosion of pain, followed by vomiting followed by gushing blood. And then 2 days worth of ache.

Now, I’ve observed the poor fellow who has been kicked in the groin and witnessed all but the blood. I’d guess a similar sensation. Given we’re talking similar organs, of similar size.

I’m also married to a TC survivor, who sadly experienced a case of epididimitis (sp). He went through pain beyond anything a swift kick would induce. Swelling that would make most men cry. I know the only way he endured was a steady stream of meds. And then sadly, the loss of said testicle. Which is a terrible procedure as well.

Back to this video. Does anyone have access to a TENS device. You can put those pads anywhere on your body and increase the zap with such force it is terribly painful. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was used as some form of military torture device.

I would venture to guess, although insanely painful, and I’ve only done it at the “OUCH that hurt setting” not the “are you trying to kill me?” setting, it’s not the same as a uterine contraction. It’s that internal contraction, to the core of your body that is seemingly mind blowing. And as many women report, they don’t even notice it. I’m a C-section mommy myself, who didn’t go through labor. All I can report is a severe staff infection, and pain that lasted over 6 months. Crazy stuff. But in the same way, some women never have cramps with their period (I have no idea how that is possible), others of us get them so badly we’re physically knocked down and vomiting for a few days.

Seriously? who hasn’t stubbed their toe and nearly gone to the moon and back. Pain is pain, and we all have varying levels of threshold. I’ve been told by doctors who have done certain procedures that I have a bizarre pain threshold compared to their other patients.

I’ve noticed as I’ve gotten older my pain threshold is less and less.

I do not understand how anyone can watch this video and think it’s some way to degrade men, or try to feminize them. Pain isn’t a feminine trait. And some guys genuinely want to know what their spouse might be going through. These guys clearly wanted ratings. Who really cares?

 

[Nimzovik]

Only in method. The stream of conciousness, sit back on the couch and let it out for analysis is one thing. But no one is concerned about the stages of psychosexual development, Oedipus complexes, and the fear that little boys have of being castrated like women are.

Yes… However to indicate that Freud’s contribution is valueless in terms of Modern Psychiatry is just simply ludicrous.
see here: www2.winchester.ac.uk/edstudies/courses/level%20two%20sem%20two/child%20psychs.htm and here: contemporaryfreudiansociety.org/society_00.html and here: oyc.yale.edu/psychology/psyc-110/lecture-3 and attending links for just a sampling.

Pschoanalytic thought, like Art, ebb and flow in popularity due to politics and new discoveries.

I, for one, will no longer brook debate on this subject as I will not be a participant in hijacking this thread.

 

[Nimzovik]

I offered aid in addition to comments on the actual content. Your statement is factually inaccurate, and I will not call you a liar outright because I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. This will only happen once.

I am not.

Irrelevant. I never claimed it was universal.

First of all, Freud was not a psychiatrist, and in fact did not use drugs as a modern psychiatrist would in his approach. Please do more research on him before spouting more inaccuracies.

Second, Archimedes, Aristotle, Hildegaard von Bingen, Galileo, Newton, and so forth were all pioneering scientists. That does not make all their theories correct, nor does it make any of their theories entirely correct.

Third, I never said that they were entirely pointless, see the second point.

No, because there is no reason to debate something that has been refined over years by the scientific process. I am not the one asserting this randomly; any biography or website about Freud that references its sources and discusses his legacy will also discuss which of his theories are still in force.

That is completely untrue. I read the post. The attack against you came after a thorough discussion of the point she was making.

I reject your simple assertion.

Yes.

Correct, which is why your “problem” with my post falls apart completely. The discussion has very clearly been about female circumcision vs. male circumcision in principle and in practical cases, not about which is more widespread. Abortion is worse than murder, but that statement makes no reference to how widespread they are.

Male circumcision is not always unsanitary, however.

I never claimed this.

Ok… If *you *say so… it must be true.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree agreeably.

 

[Baelor]

Ok… If *you *say so… it must be true.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree agreeably.

You give yourself too much credit. You may disagree with reality and the order of God’s creation and His law however much you like. I will pray that you learn more about the Church and human psychology.

 

[Nimzovik]

Baelor Wrote:

“You give yourself too much credit. You may disagree with reality and the order of God’s creation and His law however much you like. I will pray that you learn more about the Church and human psychology.”

Nimzovik Responds:

What a stellar denigration and mischaracterization of my perspective and assertions.

You have absolutely no concept of my view of the Faith. This is unopposably evidenced when you offer rather uninformed statements such as " You may disagree with reality and the order of God’s creation and His law however much you like."

You are simply unqualified to make any pretense of credibility to these detracting public claims.

 

[Nimzovik]

I’m not sure if PCOS is mentioned earlier in this thread, or another. However, this is a condition in which many women who have it, myself included, develop cysts on their ovaries where an egg develops but it is not ever or perhaps properly released.

As you may know, many women can tell when they ovulate, because they feel a tiny pinch when the egg is released. Others don’t feel anything at all.

Given that testes and ovaries are quite similar organs I suspect for those of use who have experienced a ruptured cyst, the pain is perhaps similar to a kick to the groin. In that it generally produces a similar result.

As a woman who has been through fertility drama, I’ve watched my own folicular (sp) development. You may be quite surprised how large the pocket (for lack of the exact term) gets before the teeny, tiny egg is released. The untrained eye can easily see and identify the activity on an ultrasound. The “pinch” is not surprising.

Now, I can tell you, this only from personal experience, I once had an ab. x-ray… and a huge cyst was noted. So large, my dr. was very concerned about the potential rupture. I was sent for repetitive follow up to determine if surgical removal, possible removal of the ovary was necessary. In that instance it just dissolved. Mostly normal, and uneventful.

However, I, another time went through a cycle in which I became violently sick. I thought I had the flu or food poisoning. When I finally realized it was a cyst that was to rupture, it was too late. Here’s the TMI: An explosion of pain, followed by vomiting followed by gushing blood. And then 2 days worth of ache.

Now, I’ve observed the poor fellow who has been kicked in the groin and witnessed all but the blood. I’d guess a similar sensation. Given we’re talking similar organs, of similar size.

I’m also married to a TC survivor, who sadly experienced a case of epididimitis (sp). He went through pain beyond anything a swift kick would induce. Swelling that would make most men cry. I know the only way he endured was a steady stream of meds. And then sadly, the loss of said testicle. Which is a terrible procedure as well.

Back to this video. Does anyone have access to a TENS device. You can put those pads anywhere on your body and increase the zap with such force it is terribly painful. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was used as some form of military torture device.

I would venture to guess, although insanely painful, and I’ve only done it at the “OUCH that hurt setting” not the “are you trying to kill me?” setting, it’s not the same as a uterine contraction. It’s that internal contraction, to the core of your body that is seemingly mind blowing. And as many women report, they don’t even notice it. I’m a C-section mommy myself, who didn’t go through labor. All I can report is a severe staff infection, and pain that lasted over 6 months. Crazy stuff. But in the same way, some women never have cramps with their period (I have no idea how that is possible), others of us get them so badly we’re physically knocked down and vomiting for a few days.

Seriously? who hasn’t stubbed their toe and nearly gone to the moon and back. Pain is pain, and we all have varying levels of threshold. I’ve been told by doctors who have done certain procedures that I have a bizarre pain threshold compared to their other patients.

I’ve noticed as I’ve gotten older my pain threshold is less and less.

I do not understand how anyone can watch this video and think it’s some way to degrade men, or try to feminize them. Pain isn’t a feminine trait. And some guys genuinely want to know what their spouse might be going through. These guys clearly wanted ratings. Who really cares?

A well considered, analytical post.

 

[Nimzovik]

I disagree. There is no fixed rule. Two religious parents could have a child who becomes an atheist, the children remain religious because of their mother, not their ultra strict religious father. Seen those two sets of circumstances.

God the Father as in the Trinity. However, God is a spirit and has no gender. I do not see how you came to such a conclusion about women and their fathers.

Interesting. God is referred to in the masculine by the Holy Scriotures repeatedly.

You see zero correlation between little girls an their relationship with their earthly Father and their ability to relate to their heavenly Father?

 

[thewanderer]

Interesting. God is referred to in the masculine by the Holy Scriotures repeatedly.

You see zero correlation between little girls an their relationship with their earthly Father and their ability to relate to their heavenly Father?

While there are statistics that show that the faith or lack thereof of the father tends to play a larger role in the faith of the children than that of the mother, I have to say Nimzovik that this really isn’t a great argument. If you studied St. Thomas you would see very clearly that the perfection of both fatherhood and motherhood resides in God. Anything good about a mother is good only because it exists as a part of God’s essence in an even more perfect way. While we generally tend to refer to God by using the masculine forms, God himself is neither male nor female and possess all the perfections of both genders within himself in an even more perfect way.

And, by the way, as a woman who grew up without a father present I have to say that no, I really don’t see a correlation specifically between little girls relationship to their father and to God. Expressing unfounded assumptions in a manner that makes it clear you think someone would have to be an idiot to disagree with you does not make you any more correct, it just makes your style of arguing one that is based on manipulation of the feelings of the audience rather than on a solid investigation into the truth of the matter.

 

[Nimzovik]

While there are statistics that show that the faith or lack thereof of the father tends to play a larger role in the faith of the children than that of the mother, I have to say Nimzovik that this really isn’t a great argument. If you studied St. Thomas you would see very clearly that the perfection of both fatherhood and motherhood resides in God. Anything good about a mother is good only because it exists as a part of God’s essence in an even more perfect way. While we generally tend to refer to God by using the masculine forms, God himself is neither male nor female and possess all the perfections of both genders within himself in an even more perfect way.

And, by the way, as a woman who grew up without a father present I have to say that no, I really don’t see a correlation specifically between little girls relationship to their father and to God**. Expressing unfounded assumptions in a manner that makes it clear you think someone would have to be an idiot to disagree with you does not make you any more correct, it just makes your style of arguing one that is based on manipulation of the feelings of the audience rather than on a solid investigation into the truth of the matter.**

Bolding Mine:

Nimzovik Responds:
Hmmmmmmmmm… Perhaps you might benefit from this ewtn.com/library/Theology/NOTMOTHR.HTM Would you call this a ‘solid investigation’ into the issues discussed? ahmmmmMMMmmmmmmmmmm?

Here is a link dealing with Father loss. udini.proquest.com/view/missing-daddy-growing-up-fatherless-pqid:1941965491/

A question. If the Holy Family is the Model for assuring full maturation for todays families in things Spiritual, then methinks not having a Father just may indeed have weeeeeee bit of a negative impact on the spritual development of boys and girls - yes?

In regard to

"** Expressing unfounded assumptions in a manner that makes it clear you think someone would have to be an idiot to disagree with you does not make you any more correct, it just makes your style of arguing one that is based on manipulation of the feelings of the audience rather than on a solid investigation into the truth of the matter.**

May I suggest that it is presumptuous to make…er…’*unfounded’ *asumptions of your opposition’s considered assertions? I mean really! The indications do indeed indicate that the indications indicated correctly indicate that all is as is indicated.

Pssssssssst… there really is no need to get insulting you know…

 

[thewanderer]

Bolding Mine:

Nimzovik Responds:
Hmmmmmmmmm… Perhaps you might benefit from this ewtn.com/library/Theology/NOTMOTHR.HTM Would you call this a ‘solid investigation’ into the issues discussed? ahmmmmMMMmmmmmmmmmm?

Here is a link dealing with Father loss. udini.proquest.com/view/missing-daddy-growing-up-fatherless-pqid:1941965491/

A question. If the Holy Family is the Model for assuring full maturation for todays families in things Spiritual, then methinks not having a Father just may indeed have weeeeeee bit of a negative impact on the spritual development of boys and girls - yes?

In regard to

"** Expressing unfounded assumptions in a manner that makes it clear you think someone would have to be an idiot to disagree with you does not make you any more correct, it just makes your style of arguing one that is based on manipulation of the feelings of the audience rather than on a solid investigation into the truth of the matter.**

May I suggest that it is presumptuous to make…er…’*unfounded’ *asumptions of your opposition’s considered assertions? I mean really! The indications do indeed indicate that the indications indicated correctly indicate that all is as is indicated.

Pssssssssst… there really is no need to get insulting you know…

lol, it really is pretty funny that after I agreed with you that not having a father who is religious affects children’s faith more than not having a mother who is religious you decided to disagree with me. I was pointing out something else which is absolutely true. While you will never catch me going around calling God mother, the perfection of motherhood exists in God just as much as the perfection of fatherhood does, yes, there are reasons we call God father rather than mother, but that doesn’t change what I was saying. My point is based in sound Thomistic reasoning about the nature of God. I agree with the statement you are arguing for, I just don’t think the argument you gave was a good argument for that statement.

 

[Nimzovik]

Of course…

 

[thewanderer]

Of course…

lol, its what I said pretty clearly in the beginning of my post.

While there are statistics that show that the faith or lack thereof of the father tends to play a larger role in the faith of the children than that of the mother, I have to say Nimzovik that this really isn’t a great argument.

 

[Nimzovik]

Ok…