Empitness.

[atheistgirl]

Mike I’m out of time but I’ll come back to your post later. Thanks for such a great post. Haven’t got time right now to answer your questions, but I just want to say for the record no, I’ve not heard of that woman nor have I read her and I’m absolutely incandescent with rage that a bunch of no-good lousy dead-beat atheists are copying my experiment

What’s wrong with these people

If I find out they’ve been praying to *my *God too, they’ll be hearing from my lawyers.





Sarah x

 

[ricmat]

Mike, great posts. You should write a book.

Atheistgirl - I admire your bravery, and your sense of humor

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Mike I’m out of time but I’ll come back to your post later. Thanks for such a great post. Haven’t got time right now to answer your questions, but I just want to say for the record no, I’ve not heard of that woman nor have I read her and I’m absolutely incandescent with rage that a bunch of no-good lousy dead-beat atheists are copying my experiment

What’s wrong with these people

If I find out they’ve been praying to *my *God too, they’ll be hearing from my lawyers.





Sarah x

Thanks, ricmat!

For anyone interested - premier.org.uk/atheistprayerexperiment It isn’t Leah promoting the idea, it’s an atheist broadcaster. As described on his site, it sounds like they devote only 2 to 3 minutes of prayer. It takes me that long to try to decide what to make for breakfast each morning, so I doubt there’ll be much spiritual awakening…

 

[atheistgirl]

It isn’t Leah promoting the idea, it’s an atheist broadcaster. As described on his site, it sounds like they devote only 2 to 3 minutes of prayer. It takes me that long to try to decide what to make for breakfast each morning, so I doubt there’ll be much spiritual awakening…

Premier is a religious radio station and the guy running the experiment is Justin Brierley who is a Christian Apologist and is married to a Church minister, so not much atheism going on there.

I’ve read one report where they’re claiming someone has dropped out already, even though it’s only being running for a week, because in the course of researching the topic of prayer, they concluded ‘‘I need Jesus in my life’’

I’m fully expecting to hear of at least 10 conversion stories after the experiment, and no doubt the station will be making and selling dvd’s about the experience and how ‘‘you too, with this this bottle of water from the Jordan and prayer cloth, will have your life turned around by the power of the Lord and all your financial worries will disappear’’

Sorry, it’s all gone a little bit prosperity Gospel and televangalist on me

I just have my doubts a Christian broadcaster is going to declare the 40 days a failure. In fact they’ve already claimed their first success within a week

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Hey, Sarah!

I read about the “40 days of prayer experiment” that some atheists are undertaking on Leah Libresco’s blog on the Patheos site.

I’ve spent a little time reading her after you pointed me in her direction and seen her on cnn - she seems to have made quite a stir with her conversion.

It will be interesting to follow her story not just for the conversion aspect, but for the homosexual aspect - she’s bisexual:

I don’t understand the Church’s teaching on queer relationships, and I don’t believe that, even if they’re right, that would be sufficient reason for civil government to deny committed same sex couples the legal protection of marriage. It’s one thing for me to personally give up dating girls while I ask for explanation (and I have the luxury of being bisexual) but my queer friends feel that I’m allying myself with an institution that wants to break up their families.

May I ask (without getting too personal)…how do you pray?

Outdoors, I love to feel the elements around me, no matter what the weather or temperature is, on the earth (a practice I do anyhow when I make me-time to recharge my battery) still, listening to nature and what’s around me. Sometimes looking at the night sky, sometimes looking at the abundance of life around me.

I don’t know if there was any discussion of this among the atheists who are undertaking this project.

I never heard of this until you pointed me in it’s direction, so I don’t know. They’re just starting their exercise, I’m just wrapping mine up.

Do you ask for things (material or spiritual)?

No.

Other than remembering people here I promised I would mention, and going through two formalized prayers with words, the rest is just stillness, breathing and listening, and following my thoughts where they lead.

Ask God to influence an event?

No.

Ask for a sign?

No.

For the purpose of the exercise I have assumed God exists and is listening to me and speaking to me. It’s up to me to hear what’s being communed.

Ask for enlightenment?

No.

Ask for forgiveness?

See below.

Ask for protection or help for others?

Yes. The people I’ve promised I would remember here, because I promised them I would.

Coming out of the exercises every day, I do think positive and do think to my self, in an unconscious kind of way, let me do good and little harm - whether that counts or not I’m not sure but it’s not a prayer exactly, more like a mind adjustment I’ve always done.

Pray for the souls of the dead?

No.

Do you recite prayers like the Lord’s Prayer or the Hail Mary (I wouldn’t expect an atheist to recite the Apostle’s Creed),

Only two formalized prayers. Buffalo said I should say ‘‘Jesus I trust in you’’ and a prayer I liked and remembered when I was doing a lot of reading about prayer some time ago, that goes: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. I have no idea why, but I like the simplicity of that prayer, and I understand monks use it as a means to aid contemplation.

or do you just try to carry on a conversation with God?

In silence.

How would someone who does not believe in God go about such a project?

Too long to get into now, I’ll write up the experience in a day or two when I’ve reread my notes and tried to organize them into something coherent that’s not either too long or too boring.

It seemed VERY alien and foreign to me, as I had not prayed as an adult before.

The concept of reflection, meditation, or communing (with nature in my case) is not new or alien to me so that bit was easy - what was odd was listening for God.

I was not surprised to find that I did not hear a voice in my head immediately responding to me, which confirmed me in my belief that I was neither a prophet nor a paranoid schizophrenic, but I continued in my practice nightly before going to sleep. Several interesting things happened as a result.

The one thing I absolutely did not want to hear, was a voice in my head

I would be into town and in that psychiatrists office so fast you wouldn’t see my tyres for dust

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Perhaps setting an arbitrary length of time - even a holy number like 40 - to do it, then quitting, may not allow the full value of the practice to emerge, anymore than saying you will only go to the gym for 40 days. Just something to think about.

Mike

This is the issue I’m turning over in my mind now, based on the exercise ending today.

Sarah x

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Premier is a religious radio station and the guy running the experiment is Justin Brierley who is a Christian Apologist and is married to a Church minister, so not much atheism going on there.

I’ve read one report where they’re claiming someone has dropped out already, even though it’s only being running for a week, because in the course of researching the topic of prayer, they concluded ‘‘I need Jesus in my life’’

I’m fully expecting to hear of at least 10 conversion stories after the experiment, and no doubt the station will be making and selling dvd’s about the experience and how ‘‘you too, with this this bottle of water from the Jordan and prayer cloth, will have your life turned around by the power of the Lord and all your financial worries will disappear’’

Sorry, it’s all gone a little bit prosperity Gospel and televangalist on me

I just have my doubts a Christian broadcaster is going to declare the 40 days a failure. In fact they’ve already claimed their first success within a week

Sarah x

My bad, my bad, my most grievous bad. Sorry, I didn’t read the link well and jumped to a conclusion because I knew at least 1 atheist was trying it (this is the blog I looked at: patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/09/should-an-atheist-pray/)

It sounds like you already have a kind of spiritual practice, if you don’t mind my terming it that - I’ll be interested to read a full account when you have time to write about it.

Mike

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Other than remembering people here I promised I would mention, and going through two formalized prayers with words, the rest is just stillness, breathing and listening, and following my thoughts where they lead.

There’s a long tradition of that kind of prayer in Orthodox Christianity. It sounds similar in some ways to Hesychasm.

Only two formalized prayers. Buffalo said I should say ‘‘Jesus I trust in you’’ and a prayer I liked and remembered when I was doing a lot of reading about prayer some time ago, that goes: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. I have no idea why, but I like the simplicity of that prayer, and I understand monks use it as a means to aid contemplation.

Simple prayers are good ones. I tend to recite the Fatima prayer when I’m feeling down: (“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen.”) I’ve found the words of the the Anime Christi deeply moving. A friend recited it with a dying woman in hospice care and said she found the experience one of the most moving in her life.

The concept of reflection, meditation, or communing (with nature in my case) is not new or alien to me so that bit was easy - what was odd was listening for God.

I’ll pray you hear Him, in one way or another.

Mike

 

[Julia_Mae]

Coming out of the exercises every day, I do think positive and do think to my self, in an unconscious kind of way,** let me do good and little harm **- whether that counts or not I’m not sure but it’s not a prayer exactly, …

Just FYI: it is a prayer. Exactly.

Too long to get into now, I’ll write up the experience in a day or two when I’ve reread my notes and tried to organize them into something coherent that’s not either too long or too boring.

I just want to suggest after reading your posts, if you had a blog, I’d read it.

The concept of reflection, meditation, or communing (with nature in my case) is not new or alien to me so that bit was easy - what was odd was listening for God.

The one thing I absolutely did not want to hear, was a voice in my head

I would be into town and in that psychiatrists office so fast you wouldn’t see my tyres for dust

Another FYI: communication from God sounds like your own thought-voice. It’s the clarity and sense of peace, love and surety that comes with it, the feeling of it being given to you, rather than coming from you, that characterizes this.

I will say something I don’t know if anyone else has explained. The benefits of contemplation don’t come during it, as much as after it. It’s not the thought you have while sitting outside that is the n benefit, as much as the one you have washing dishes or taking a shower or driving home from the store.

What I am interested in is if you experienced anything in the nature of change or insight in the rest of your life, rather than during your prayer time.

Mother Theresa was asked about her prayer life. She would sit in silent prayer for quite a while each day and some asked her what she said during that time. Her answer was, “I don’t say anything, I listen.” So they asked what God was saying during that time and she answered, “He doesn’t say anything, He listens.”

 

[atheistgirl]

Just FYI: it is a prayer. Exactly.

It’s interesting you call it a prayer. I always called it an attitude adjustment I say it regularly, and on certain days with alarming frequency when dealing with issues that frustrate the heck out of me

I just want to suggest after reading your posts, if you had a blog, I’d read it.

That’s very kind of you to say, but I’m not a blogger. I couldn’t write an interesting blog to save my life I admire the skill and word smithery of some great bloggers I read, and I’m amazed at how easily and succinctly and interestingly they can get their point across. It’s a real talent, and one I don’t have.

Another FYI: communication from God sounds like your own thought-voice. It’s the clarity and sense of peace, love and surety that comes with it, the feeling of it being given to you, rather than coming from you, that characterizes this.

Interesting.

[quoteIt’s not the thought you have while sitting outside that is the n benefit, as much as the one you have washing dishes or taking a shower or driving home from the store.
[/quote]

This I’m familiar with from my own contemplations. That’s why I like the battery recharge analogy. When there’s no demand for power, the battery’s just there, but when it all goes crazy, the battery kicks in and there’s ample power to deal with whatever is needed.

What I am interested in is if you experienced anything in the nature of change or insight in the rest of your life, rather than during your prayer time.

Strange you should ask this, but yes.

I made a decision. Quite a significant decision. It’s a decision I’ve been struggling with over the past two years, and one I’ve discussed in great depth with my husband, children and extended family. It’s the sort of decision I need to make now, while I’m still young and full of energy. And over the past 40 days, I found a certain clarity of mind, and stillness of emotion that allowed me to make that decision with confidence.

The decision wasn’t arrived at during my contemplations. The clarity needed to make this decision unfolded over the past number of weeks, and with all my family on board too, which is the only thing really that makes it possible for me on an emotional level.

I didn’t think about this issue during my contemplations.

But I think it’s interesting I could, after two years, finally make this decision, following a series of disciplined meditation. Of course, taking a disciplined approach to contemplation and reflection will have benefits, so nothing new there, but it is interesting none the less that after two years of struggling somewhat with this issue/idea, despite the fact meditation is a part of my life, I could reach a decision now, with comfort and confidence.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

Why doesn’t something come into being when it changes form? Doesn’t a new object come to exist, which previously didn’t? i.e., toasters (the specific combination of form and matter) haven’t always existed, but they do now.

The Law of Conservation of Mass says that changes in form doesn’t equal a new object in the way you’re suggesting. So that part of your original reasoning is flawed.

Pre-philosophy just means the ideas and reasoning we use before we critically reflect on them. It’s also often called ‘common sense’.

I’m guessing this is a term you came up with? I can’t find it in a search.

Well, I don’t think time could have come from anything. Otherwise, it would have to increase the amount of things that exist, and it couldn’t have done that. So, I think the temporal dimension has just always existed.

I’m sorry, who says that “it couldn’t have done that”? Are we talking about a defined logical proof, or is this your own private theory? You said that making a toaster is “increasing the amount of things that exist” (which it’s not, but anyway…), then you also say that very same operation is not allowed for the temporal dimension. You’re arguing past yourself.

I do agree that it’s illogical to ask “what happened before the beginning of time” if by “before” we mean temporally before…but it is logical to ask what came before time in a causal sense. God caused time to be created at the very first moment…so he comes before time, in the causal sense, eternally.

I think the initial state had to exist, out of necessity. I don’t admit that it was possible for nothing to have existed.

Out of what necessity? Why do time/space and matter/energy exist at all?

 

[mgoforth]

The concept of reflection, meditation, or communing (with nature in my case) is not new or alien to me so that bit was easy - what was odd was listening for God.

I wonder if you’ve considered that you may not receive much in the way of a response to your prayers because you haven’t asked anything? God is not synonymous with nature, so I’m curious how communing with nature is the same as praying?

I know this was a good-faith exercise on your part, so I’m asking these questions in all charity…I just don’t understand why you went about it in that way. When you said 40 days of prayer, I guess I assumed you were asking God for something…a reason to believe in him for instance. But sitting out in nature doesn’t sound like anything different than you normally would have done.

Again, not trying to be offensive. I’ll definitely be interested to read your comments on the 40 days.

 

[atheistgirl]

I wonder if you’ve considered that you may not receive much in the way of a response to your prayers because you haven’t asked anything?

Well, I figured as I’ve never spoken to Him before, it might be impolite to turn up with a list like I was going grocery shopping

I also figured He know’s my heart, so knows what I would ask for, were I to ask, so it seemed like a moot point. I also figured it would be a little more respectful to meet in greeting than in need.

God is not synonymous with nature, so I’m curious how communing with nature is the same as praying?

To me, if there were a God, He would be synonymous with nature, His creation, so it’s an entry, a way in, to prayer, that I can understand and that makes sense to me.

When you said 40 days of prayer, I guess I assumed you were asking God for something…a reason to believe in him for instance. But sitting out in nature doesn’t sound like anything different than you normally would have done.

That’s right, it was no different to what I do anyhow, with the exception of the focus for listening for God in the stillness and life around me. So in that sense, I was seeking God, and asking Him to reveal Himself, without asking Him to reveal Himself, because were I to feel His presence, He would have in fact revealed Himself… I think that makes sense

Sarah x

 

[daisybee]

I wonder if you’ve considered that you may not receive much in the way of a response to your prayers because you haven’t asked anything? God is not synonymous with nature, so I’m curious how communing with nature is the same as praying?.

She did more than that. See post #106 re: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.”

Asking for mercy is asking for something!

 

[Hypnotoad]

From how I understand it God draws close to the humble and resists the prideful. I think understanding our weakness and our inability to guarantee ourselves anything in this life would be a good starting point. Personally I don’t think telling God “you have 40 days to manifest yourself according to my wishes” is really the best way to go about it.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I can’t help but think that some form of relative deprivation may be at play in some of the views expressed. Relative deprivation is a concept in the behavioural sciences in which how some one feels about their current state of being is based on what the person feels their state of being should be. This can be influenced by a person’s evaluation of how things used to be for her or even by looking at those around her.

With respect to this conversation what I see is that there are some non-believers that are fairly content with their current state. I also see that some believers are telling those that declare themselves non-religious and content that they are deceived by their feelings and they really don’t feel the way they think they do (ignoring the paradox in that for now).

It’s possible that what is happening here is that some that get some satisfaction from their religion are imagining what it would feel like to be deprived of their religion and the satisfaction associated with it and applying that to the non-believers. Only thing is, that may not be a good estimate of how some one really feels; it may be a little like evaluating the satisfaction that some one might have gotten watching black-and-white silent films done by a person that is used to watching 3D-IMAX films.

Or, to use a more terse wording that is attributed to the Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama:

People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness in life. Just because they are not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost."

Thanks for reading!

 

[atheistgirl]

Personally I don’t think telling God “you have 40 days to manifest yourself according to my wishes” is really the best way to go about it.

Right.

Which is why I didn’t tell God He has 40 days to manifest according to my wishes

I did very little of telling God anything - other than to remember the people I said I would remember to Him and the two formalized prayers I mentioned.

I did do a lot of ‘‘listening’’ though, and a lot of heightening my conscious and subconscious awareness.

Sarah x

 

[Hypnotoad]

Right.

Which is why I didn’t tell God He has 40 days to manifest according to my wishes

I did very little of telling God anything - other than to remember the people I said I would remember to Him and the two formalized prayers I mentioned.

I did do a lot of ‘‘listening’’ though, and a lot of heightening my conscious and subconscious awareness.

Sarah x

Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness in life. Just because they are not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost."

Ah but do all know what will really give them happiness?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Ah but do all know what will really give them happiness?

“all”?

 

[mgoforth]

Well, I figured as I’ve never spoken to Him before, it might be impolite to turn up with a list like I was going grocery shopping

I also figured He know’s my heart, so knows what I would ask for, were I to ask, so it seemed like a moot point. I also figured it would be a little more respectful to meet in greeting than in need.

God wants you to need Him…to acknowledge that there are things that are beyond your reach.

To me, if there were a God, He would be synonymous with nature, His creation, so it’s an entry, a way in, to prayer, that I can understand and that makes sense to me.

I respect that it makes sense to you. I know that was an effort that your were comfortable with.

That’s right, it was no different to what I do anyhow, with the exception of the focus for listening for God in the stillness and life around me. So in that sense, I was seeking God, and asking Him to reveal Himself, without asking Him to reveal Himself, because were I to feel His presence, He would have in fact revealed Himself… I think that makes sense

It sort of makes sense. But it also makes me wonder whether perhaps God saw the posts you made here on CAF during your 40 day experiment, professing that He is not real, and decided that you weren’t seriously searching for Him after all? That may be a good thing to add if you try this again in the future - suspend your disbelief completely for 40 days…in nature and online.