EMsHC Abuse?

[katolik]

otm:

The Ordo Missae, which certain groups insist on calling the Novus Ordo, is also the unbloody sacrifice of the Cross…

And they both are a sacred meal.

I fail to see what your point is.

THis was in response to “crusader”‘s statement "DA’ TLM AIN’T A SILVER BULLET".

 

[katolik]

Joanne_ca:

Thank You Crusader!

Everytime I see your posts, it’s makes me realize I made the right choice in only attending TLM.

ME TOO!!

 

[RichT]

Crusader:

Please don’t generalize, and please don’t stereotype.

Answer me this. I attend the exact same parish in the exact same church building that I did as a kid. The number of people who attend the Mass I attend is about the same, perhaps a bit smaller.

One priest used to distribute holy communion either though one species of through intinction. Why does it now take a priest, NINE EMsHS and two “captains” to distribute communion under both kinds?

This ABUSE has nothing to do with using EMsHC. It has to do with **abusing the use of EMsHC. **This is in no way unique to my parish. It seems common to perhaps 95-99% of all Catholic parishes I have visited in recent years.

I would be careful blaming someone for generalizing and stereotyping. My statement was, “Many of you traditionalists.” Not all. If I had said all, that would be generalizing, and stereotyping. I can’t answer your questions as to why your parish all of a sudden needs nine EMHC’s and two captains. Perhaps your preist can answer those questions. Afterall, apparently he’s the one who is guilty of an abuse.

 

[RichT]

1. I disagree, but I wish RS had said “does not enter sanctuary.” Heck, then again, the abusers would find a way around that – as many detest even the idea of a sanctuary and nave.

1. In very limited cases perhaps. Certainly not the horrible situations that are so common today.

Like it or not, the sanctuary and the altar are two distinctly different parts of the church. Entering the sanctuary is not the same as approaching the altar.

 

[Mysty101]

OTMThe Ordo Missae, which certain groups insist on calling the Novus Ordo, is also the unbloody sacrifice of the Cross…

Technically it isNOVUS ORDO MISSAE
Missae is Latin for Mass, but the accepted terms are Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo Mass.

“Novus Ordo Missae” (New Order of the Mass) and Mass of Pope Paul VI or Pauline Mass or Second Vatican Council Mass are terms used to refer to the liturgy of the Mass as revised by the Roman Catholic Church by decree of the Second Vatican Council.

The document by which Pope Paul VI ordered publication of a new edition of the Roman Missal, revised in line with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, was dated Holy Thursday, 3 April 1969. The Missal itself was published in 1970.

ORDO MISSAE -litterally, “Order of the Mass”, though in the past it was usually called in English “Ordinary of the Mass”), is a section of the Roman Missal giving the common prayers and general rubrics for the celebration of Mass In the 1970 Missal, another section, the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani (“General Instruction of the Roman Missal”, hereinafter referred to as GIRM), available on the Internet in English translations of its 1975 version and its 2002 edition,

SuZ

 

[Crusader]

Marauder:

Assuming a lot about my parish aren’t you. What if I tell you that EVERY Sunday Mass has EVERY pew full. Some Masses may not be overfull, but all are full.

You assume a lot don’t you. If our priest feels that there are too many EMHCs he will tell them to sit down. Our parish has tried numerous models with varying numbers of EMHCs and this is the one that works. Like I said it is a large parish, the largest in the county and one of the largest in the Archdiocese.

It sounds as though your parish has created a monster. **It would be fascinating to understand how they distributed communion prior to the use of EMsHC.
**
Too often parishes base their “need” for EMsHC on the bloated, horrendous numbers in current use, without actually starting from a clean slate and ascertaining the ***actual *number needed.
**

 

[Crusader]

RichT:

Like it or not, the sanctuary and the altar are two distinctly different parts of the church. Entering the sanctuary is not the same as approaching the altar.

An altar is NOT a “distinctly different parts of the church.” “Altar” is Latin for TABLE. It’s the table of sacrifice.

 

[Crusader]

We still haven’t addressed the issue, though. Clearly the Church functioned for a very, very long time without having recourse the extraordinary ministers. By definition, these persons are acting in an extra-ordinary fashion. Habitual use (every Sunday), let alone normative use (daily) is clearly an abuse even of the title. The problem, as I see it, rests on two fundamental problems: 1) The rampant insistence on distributing under both species all the time, and 2) The excessive numbers of persons receiving communion. Without presuming to judge individual person’s souls, one need only watch the numbers at the confessional on Saturday and the numbers that receive communion on Sunday. Now, some parishes with good priests have been blessed in either avoiding this or have been able to rectify it, but most of the country has not. This is a significant problem and one that the priests will have to answer for, at least in part, with regard to precisely what constitutes mortal sin and how frequently one ought to confess. The problem of both species is just goofy as now we have whole generations of utraquists running about feeling “cheated” out of the Precious Blood. *Sacrosanctum Concilium *certainly never envisioned the situation present in so many parishes now, whereby extraordinary ministers distribute the cup at daily Mass, let alone every Sunday Mass.

Bingo. Yet the use of EMsHC is so ingrained that few people (such as yourself) are even able to accurately see the problem.

I do agree that far too many poorly catechized Catholics would feel “cheated” if communion were distributed only under one species.

 

[Crusader]

Marauder:

In my parish, EMHCs are used every Sunday since there are 4000 familes in the parish, but a particular EMHC is only used at most once a month. What do you propose for churches that have large numbers of people present? The National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception can have 2000 or more people at one Mass. Even with all 4 priests assigned to the church distributing, it would take forever. It is great when lots of priests are visiting the Shrine and all the people distributing communion are priests and/or deacons but it doesn’t happen every Mass.

4000 families certainly don’t all go to one Mass in your parish. That’s misleading.

The Shrine holds in excess of 6,000

I don’t believe there are too many EMsHC in service at the Shrine.

Marauder:

Our priest allows for the distribution of communion under both species at daily Mass. Usually there are no deacons present, so an EMHC has to distribute it. It is his choice to allow communion under both species. Except for holy days of obligation it is only the priest and one EMHC.

So?

Yes, I could see a need for a single EMHC in the case you describe.

Marauder:

At our parish it is only done at weekday Masses and the 10:30 Sunday Mass. All other are only in the form of the host.

“only?”

Marauder:

As with all the instances of EMHC abuse. Training is required. In my parish there are always long lines for Confession. Not long enough but they are long.

ok.

 

[Mysty101]

The bottom line is there are more communicants, and less priests. Instead of praising God that more people are receiving more frequently, you are looking for reasons for them not to receive.

Would you like to go back some years? When people would not receive if they hadn’t confessed, even if they had not committed any mortal sins?

I distribute Communion at the hospital. You would not believe how many elderly people are hesitant to receive because they missed Mass, They are old and sick and have no way of getting there, yet they feel they cannot receive without confessing.

Address the overuse of EMHC if you wish, but do not minimize the service they provide for overworked priests in large parishes.

SuZ

 

[Crusader]

The bottom line is there are more communicants, and less priests. Instead of praising God that more people are receiving more frequently, you are looking for reasons for them not to receive.

Would you like to go back some years? When people would not receive if they hadn’t confessed, even if they had not committed any mortal sins?

I distribute Communion at the hospital. You would not believe how many elderly people are hesitant to receive because they missed Mass, They are old and sick and have no way of getting there, yet they feel they cannot receive without confessing.

Address the overuse of EMHC if you wish, but do not minimize the service they provide for overworked priests in large parishes.

SuZ

Seems like the same (or fewer) number of communicants at my parish. We still have the same number of priest per Mass. One.

 

[Mysty101]

Well, then you may have an overuse situation. Do many others agree with you? If yes, get together and do something about it. If not trust and support your Pastor.

If you are unwilling to trust your Pastor, it might be a good idea to look for a different parish.
SuZ

 

[RichT]

Crusader:

An altar is NOT a “distinctly different parts of the church.” “Altar” is Latin for TABLE. It’s the table of sacrifice.

The altar is not the sanctuary, and the sanctuary is not the altar. Period. They are not one in the same, they are different. It doesn’t matter if the word altar is Latin, Spanish, or any other language. EMHC’s who enter the sanctuary and wait until the priest has received have not approached the altar. Instead of arguing with me, answer this question. When the EMHC’s that you are referring to come into the sanctuary, do they stop and stand back from the altar until after the priest receives? If so, they, according to the GIRM, have not violated any of the rules.

 

[John666]

RichT:

Regarding number one, this has been discussed before. Entering the sanctuary is clearly different from approaching the altar. Although the EMHC is physically closer to the altar they are not actually approaching it if they enter the sanctuary and wait intil after the priest consumes before approaching to receive themselves.

Now, as an EMHC myself let me just say that we are necessary in some parishes. I personally take my responsibilties very serious. Do I see myself as a priest or his equivilent? Definately not! And I personally would never assume that another EMHC regards him or herself as someone who is even remotely close to being a priest. I realize many of you traditionalists don’t like the use of EMHC’s, but don’t make assumptions about us. Although I agree that some EMHC’s may have their hearts in the wrong place, that isn’t the case with all of us.

Traditionalist? Who are you referring to? And who said, “they don’t like the “use” of EMsHC?” Can you not see, read or hear there IS an abuse?

You take your RESPONSIBILY serious? I seriously advise you, see if you are seriously needed to be a EMHC. MY priest has let the OVER use (“abuse”) to happen and then some.

Joe

 

[Crusader]

RichT:

The altar is not the sanctuary, and the sanctuary is not the altar. Period. They are not one in the same, they are different. It doesn’t matter if the word altar is Latin, Spanish, or any other language. EMHC’s who enter the sanctuary and wait until the priest has received have not approached the altar. Instead of arguing with me, answer this question. When the EMHC’s that you are referring to come into the sanctuary, do they stop and stand back from the altar until after the priest receives? If so, they, according to the GIRM, have not violated any of the rules.

Let me explain the difference between an “altar” and a “sanctuary” in the Catholic Church.

An altar is the TABLE (NOT an area!) in which the Liturgy of the Eucharist is celebrated. When I hear people suggest someone was “standing on the altar” I cannot think how confused they must be. The altar is located WITHIN the sanctuary.

The sanctuary is simply that part of the church (typically the most sacred area) that contains the altar, ambo (“the altar of the word”), many times the tabernacle, etc.

Please do not confuse an AREA of a church (the sanctuary) with a FURNISHING of a church (the altar.)

Your interpretation of the GIRM is also incorrect.

 

[Crusader]

Mysty101:

Well, then you may have an overuse situation. Do many others agree with you? If yes, get together and do something about it. If not trust and support your Pastor.

If you are unwilling to trust your Pastor, it might be a good idea to look for a different parish.
SuZ

What would it matter? The Sioux-nation sized gaggle of eucharistic monsters would never agree to a reduction in force.

Our only hope is that our pastor will one day wake-up and stop the abuse.

PS: That’s another problem. The perpetual nature of being an EMHC at my parish. EMsHC are supposed to be appointed for a year. Many serve for many years because “it’s difficult to find others who will serve.” That’s nothing but raw sewage…

 

[Marauder]

4000 families certainly don’t all go to one Mass in your parish. That’s misleading. The Shrine holds in excess of 6,000

Wow, since you claim to know it all about the Catholic faith including things that aren’t written and you seem to know all about my parish. You also seem to know more about the National Shrine then me, even though I am an Usher there. Wow, we should just make you Pope since you seem to know it all and don’t feel the rules of the church are appropriate.

Now for the real things. I never said that 4000 familes attend every Mass. With a parish with 4000 familes, even though we have 7 Masses between Saturday evening and Sunday evening, except for the 7:30 a.m. Mass every Mass is crowded. Every Mass fills the church. I said what works at my church and it was determined after many times trying to rearrange what was needed. Just because YOUR church may not need as many EMHCs as they are using doesn’t mean EVERY church doesn’t need as many EMHCs as they are using.

While we are correcting things. The National Shrine of the Immaculate conception doesn’t hold 6000 people. Seated it probably only holds a maximum of 2500 in the upper church. The Pro-life vigil Mass which places people EVERYWHERE in the church only holds maybe 5000 people. I was talking about your average Mass. You average Mass at the National Shrine can have everyone from 500 people to 2000 people depending on who is there.

   I don't believe there are too many EMsHC in service at the Shrine.

I will tell Monsiegnor Bransfield the next time I talk to him that you approve of his use of scheduled EMHCs the next time I talk to him. I am sure he will be excited to hear that.

My parish church “schedules” EMHCs the EXACT same way the National Shrine “schedules” them. Work on your own church/diocese before you start trying to work on other churches that are following the GIRM and RS as written. You church may have created a monster, doesn’t mean that all churches that use EMHCs has.

 

[Crusader]

Marauder:

Wow, since you claim to know it all about the Catholic faith including things that aren’t written and you seem to know all about my parish. You also seem to know more about the National Shrine then me, even though I am an Usher there. Wow, we should just make you Pope since you seem to know it all and don’t feel the rules of the church are appropriate.

Now for the real things. I never said that 4000 familes attend every Mass. With a parish with 4000 familes, even though we have 7 Masses between Saturday evening and Sunday evening, except for the 7:30 a.m. Mass every Mass is crowded. Every Mass fills the church. I said what works at my church and it was determined after many times trying to rearrange what was needed. Just because YOUR church may not need as many EMHCs as they are using doesn’t mean EVERY church doesn’t need as many EMHCs as they are using.

While we are correcting things. The National Shrine of the Immaculate conception doesn’t hold 6000 people. Seated it probably only holds a maximum of 2500 in the upper church. The Pro-life vigil Mass which places people EVERYWHERE in the church only holds maybe 5000 people. I was talking about your average Mass. You average Mass at the National Shrine can have everyone from 500 people to 2000 people depending on who is there.

I will tell Monsiegnor Bransfield the next time I talk to him that you approve of his use of scheduled EMHCs the next time I talk to him. I am sure he will be excited to hear that.

My parish church “schedules” EMHCs the EXACT same way the National Shrine “schedules” them. Work on your own church/diocese before you start trying to work on other churches that are following the GIRM and RS as written. You church may have created a monster, doesn’t mean that all churches that use EMHCs has.

You certainly seem to have a great deal of anger.

Venting here will not change the fact that in many (likely most) parishes the use of EMsHC is abused.

Rather than try to defend the undefendable, perhaps you should find out how your monster parish distributed communion before the Sioux-nation sized gangs of EMsHC became all the rage.

 

[Crusader]

Marauder:

Wow, since you claim to know it all about the Catholic faith including things that aren’t written and you seem to know all about my parish. You also seem to know more about the National Shrine then me, even though I am an Usher there. Wow, we should just make you Pope since you seem to know it all and don’t feel the rules of the church are appropriate.

Now for the real things. I never said that 4000 familes attend every Mass. With a parish with 4000 familes, even though we have 7 Masses between Saturday evening and Sunday evening, except for the 7:30 a.m. Mass every Mass is crowded. Every Mass fills the church. I said what works at my church and it was determined after many times trying to rearrange what was needed. Just because YOUR church may not need as many EMHCs as they are using doesn’t mean EVERY church doesn’t need as many EMHCs as they are using.

While we are correcting things. The National Shrine of the Immaculate conception doesn’t hold 6000 people. Seated it probably only holds a maximum of 2500 in the upper church. The Pro-life vigil Mass which places people EVERYWHERE in the church only holds maybe 5000 people. I was talking about your average Mass. You average Mass at the National Shrine can have everyone from 500 people to 2000 people depending on who is there.

I will tell Monsiegnor Bransfield the next time I talk to him that you approve of his use of scheduled EMHCs the next time I talk to him. I am sure he will be excited to hear that.

My parish church “schedules” EMHCs the EXACT same way the National Shrine “schedules” them. Work on your own church/diocese before you start trying to work on other churches that are following the GIRM and RS as written. You church may have created a monster, doesn’t mean that all churches that use EMHCs has.

I suggest you read and ponder posting #39 (not one of mine.) It might make you feel anxious, even angry, but the poster hit the nail squarely on the head.

What I find fascinating is that the poster in that case was able to see past all the current hubris regarding EMsHC. While your immediate response may be defensive in a justifying manner, there is no question that posting #39 lays out the truth.

Why don’t you try to respond to posting #39 for us? I notice no one else has…

Oh, it’s not the Monsignor, but Fr. Andrew Fischer that is in charge of the liturgy at the Shrine…

 

[Marauder]

Crusader:

You certainly seem to have a great deal of anger.

Venting here will not change the fact that in many (likely most) parishes the use of EMsHC is abused.

Rather than try to defend the undefendable, perhaps you should find out how your monster parish distributed communion before the Sioux-nation sized gangs of EMsHC became all the rage.

I have no anger. The only thing that tends to tic me off is people that assume they know more about things then the magisterium. If you have a problem with the use of EMHCs in your parish/diocese then deal with it. Contact your Priest, then Bishop, then Vatican Nuncio.

How can you judge how my parish uses EMHCs without being there? Why do you have no problem with the way the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception arranges EMHCs, but you do with my parish. Both of them deal with the EMHC the exact same way.

RS and the GIRM permit the use of the EMHC. Who has the agenda here?

I know how it was distributed before EMHCs were permitted, the parish was a lot smaller, there were less Masses and all the priests could attend every Mass. Now there are less priests, more Masses and more people partaking of communion. None of this is the fault of the EMHC.

If there is a problem with EMHCs in your parish deal with it. Don’t harp on a position that is allowed by the Vatican because you don’t like it.