End a "friendship"?

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Denise_R

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“Bob & Mary Smith” were our neighbors for years (we moved about 5 miles away 6 years ago) and we developed a neighborly friendship through those years that developed into a social relationship (mostly from their invitations). However, for quite awhile now I have gone from not really enjoying their company from trying to find ways not to accept invitations to socialize with them at all.

First, they are Lutherans and have anti-Catholic views. Most of their comments are ignorant and I’ve tried to politely correct them many times. They don’t really care about learning the truth about the teaching of the Church and I just try to avoid the subject so as not to sound like they do about Lutheranism.

Second, they are pro-choice. I assumed early on that since they were church-going people who profess to be godly that they would be pro-life. Assume nothing. Through the years I’ve been able to plant seeds without getting into many arguments. One night out for drinks (my husband was talking with some people he knew from work) they decided it was a good time to bring up abortion. Bob tried to make points from a biblical perspective but I said a quick silent prayer to the Holy Spirit and was able to hold my own. Mary came at me with her arguments from a woman’s perspective and I was still able to hold my own. My husband walked over into the middle of it and we politely cut the evening short.

Third, their philosophy is not only pro-choice but pro-eugenics. Bob and Mary have said on more than one occasion (when we are discussing politics or an item in the news) how eugenics makes sense. At first I thought they were being fecitious but soon came to realize they are dead serious. Mary even wrote a paper on it in college.

When talking on the phone with Mary yesterday about the recent octuplets situation she said the woman should not have been allowed to carry all 8 babies to term to which I responded (with scarasm) that it was her choice. If she has a legal choice to kill her kids then she should have the choice to give birth to them. A couple weeks ago I tried to send the point home to them that is what happens when we try to play God with IVF, etc.

The choice comment kind of gave her pause for a second but then she changed the subject slightly by saying, “That’s like the people who think it’s OK for people with Downs Syndrome to marry and have children. Pretty soon we will all be walking around with club feet and nearsidedness.” I was apalled and could only respond by saying, “It’s not contageous.” Then I had to find a way to hang up quickly. She also knows I teach CCD to a girl with Downs who is the sweetest person I have ever met. I have developed a friendship with her mother, who is also one of the nicest peole I know.

I am now trying to figure out if I can end the “friendship” with Mary (Bob and Mary since we do things as couples). My husband is the quiet type and has a live-and-let-live philosophy and doesn’t really get into the politics as much. He understands why I’m upset with Mary and knows I’ve been uncomfortable in our relationship with the Smiths for years because of these views as well as the general arrogance they always display. He doesn’t really enjoy their company that much either but thinks we should continue the friendship (doesn’t like confrontation either).

Until now, I’ve tried to be a good example and not cause waves but I just don’t know if I can let the recent comments stand. If I ignore them and continue on with the friendship, then am I really being a good example or am I being a doormat?

If I do end the friendship, how would I do it? I would want her to know many of the reasons without sounding judgemental but explaining that it would be like being friends with a known Nazi. Would I send an email or letter? I’m better at expressing myself by writing. She is the stronger personality (college-educated and well-read confidence) and I wouldn’t be able to adequately explain my thoughts verbally.

We are dog-sitting for them for 2 weeks when they go on their annual Mexico trip at the end of February. Should I so something now (possibly ruining their trip – they don’t like people not to like them) or wait until they return and deal with it then? Is it even moral to remain friends with them?

Any comments are appreciated.
 
Denise,

I will pray for you and your family as well as for Bob and Mary. It has always been my belief that as Christians we must be careful as to what we give credence to by our gifts and/or associations.

Also, do you have children? If so, what message do you send them by choosing to spend your time with people of such ideas?

While we are all called to be good examples of Christ and it is easier to do so by associating with such as need that example we must also avoid the possible scandal of seeming to approve of such beliefs. It is not an easy situation.

Again, you have my prayers.

Bryan
 
consider it as a friendship. what are the positive elements that drew you together in the first place. are those still present? What good things nurtured the friendship as it grew. Are those things still present? Who changed, you or they? Does the negative in the relationship now outweigh the good? Most of all does this friendship benefit or detract from your marriage (since these are “couples” friends) and from the good of you and of your husband as individuals.

a cold break is not necessary, simply stop making and accepting social invitations. no need to say, I don’t think we should be friends any more as our moral and political views differ in so many areas. if you are already dog-sitting and it is too late to spoil their plans, do it, that is an act of pure friendship. But the let things slide after that.
 
If it were me, I would have bowed out long ago. Not because I may not agree philosophically or theologically or morally or ethically with these people, but because it doesn’t sound like a friendship.

The situations/conversations you describe do not sound like friends chatting, but rather like a ‘cause’ to be forwarded.

I suppose I would honor the commitment to dog sit for them, but after they come home, maybe not the moment they walk in the door, but soon after when they call to get together (or if on their return they offer to invite you to dinner as a thank you) tell them,
“Thank you, but we are going to decline. This relationship has become too uncomfortable for us to continue. You will be in our prayers and we harbor no ill will towards you, but we are growing more and more uncomfortable with the differences in our values. We hope you can understand. Take care, goodbye.”

Just me and how I’d handle it. You could just avoid each other, but I think I would rather they understand that they are entitled to whatever beliefs they choose (God gave them that free will), but so are you entitled to that same free will and decision making.

However, if they are friends really, if there is a lot of love there (I’m sure there is some either way, but I’m talking lots-of-love friends) then I would say some of the same things, but rather than as a good bye I would try to use it to engage them in a discussion. Not about a specific topic or view, but about how the differences and their harsh comments about your faith are affecting you.
 
If you feel that you absolutly need to end the friendship, then do so. I, however would not. I have many friends who do not agree with my ideals. We are still friends.

My advice to you is this, take this disagreement off the table. In other words, agree to disagree. Neither of you is going to change your minds, so let it be. If there comes a conversation which could lead to a disagreement about pro choice/pro life or anything there related, simply say “since we both know we have different opinions on this, why don’t we change the subject.” That’s it. I’m sure if you were friends with these people before you knew their views, there must be something about them that you like.

we are to love our neighbors, despite their opinions on our beliefs.

You want them to allow you your beliefs, but you don’t want to allow them their beliefs (right or wrong). That doesn’t seem very friend-like on your part. They obviously feel that this difference is not enough to end a friendship over, so why do you?

I’m not trying to downplay the seriousness of your concerns. I just think that the only person who will lose on this is you if you end the friendship. So ask yourself if you are willing to just change/avoid the subject of a conversation in order to enjoy their company.
 
What did you enjoy about being friends in the beginning? Are those factors still there? If so…

Your views differ greatly on politics and religion. When a discussion arises and the other party is begins to attack and be nasty/defensive, there has been a breakdown in the free flow of ideas. The goal of discussions with friends would be to learn about the other party’s opinions and feelings and how they arrived at them, not to change their mind. But, my fellow catholic, some poignant thing you may say about yourself could turn the tides in another’s dark heart. Only by example, love, and pure self expression, can you hope to win a dark heart.

After all, do you think anything they could say to you would change your mind on abortion, etc? Once that breakdown happens, I just say, “There is no need to get defensive. I am not trying to make my opinion your opinion. My goal is to learn more about you and understand why you have these views, not to change your mind. You will not change my mind, but having opposing views means that we can learn a lot from each other. I really like our talks. How about some ice cream?”

If you feel there is nothing salvageable and they are unreasonable and are negatively effecting you & hubby, then just limit your time with them.

I had a friend years ago I met in business. An older male that was non-catholic Christian and interjected faith comments in nearly everything. Business included. However, he frequented bars and places like Hooters, etc. Another business friend was troubled about his hypocrisy.

My view point was this: “Well, should there be no light in those dark places? As Christians, should we avoid doing battle in the trenches and not represent Jesus in the grime? I do not know if his intentions are pure as he visits these establishments. That is the question. Does he bring the light of Jesus christ to those he encounters there? Or is he drinking, going to oggle girls, etc?”

You may end up being the light in the darkness if you all can learn to discuss things objectively. Something you may say, just may turn a heart. I have friends from all walks of life for this exact reason.

Fortify yourself, yes, when you are battling darkness. Remove yourself, yes, when you are losing and your joy is fading in their presence.
 
Denise_R said:
I would want her to know many of the reasons without sounding judgemental but explaining that it would be like being friends with a known Nazi.

Any comments are appreciated.
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If you sincerely feel the need to stop associating or socializing, then just stop accepting their invitations and don’t extend any of your own. Sooner or later, they will simply stop inviting you. Acquaintances drift apart all the time. If they press as to why you’ve stopped socializing, you can say that your political and religious views are just too far apart, and you are no longer comfortable discussing these topics anymore.

There is no need to explain to her the above quoted portion of your post. I mean, seriously. Do you REALLY want to explain to her that you liken being her friend to being friends with a known Nazi?!! That surely won’t come off as sounding non-judgemental.
 
juno24 said:
If they press as to why you’ve stopped socializing, you can say that your political and religious views are just too far apart, and you are no longer comfortable discussing these topics anymore.
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Sadly, I’ve had to take this approach with one of my very own sisters. Due to her New Age beliefs and practices. 😦 I will keep you and your husband in my prayers. It’s a difficult situation. God bless.
 
It sounds a little like you might be a little torn. On the one hand you admire these folks for being well-read and articulate. On the other hand you find some of their views extremely objectionable and talking with them about these issues leaves you upset.

As others have pointed out, if there is/was something that you enjoy about the friendship then it is probably worth hanging onto. And comparing her and her husband to Nazis is probably not the best way to handle the situation.

You could try to set some boundaries in the relationship, though. Maybe the next time the topic comes up you could say something along the lines of: “Mary, we really enjoy your and Bob’s company. (insert something abotu what you like about them or things you like to do with them here). But we have such different views about religion and politics, that I find it very difficult to discuss those issues with you without getting upset. I’d appreciate it if we could just steer clear of those topics from now on.”

If they can respect those boundaries, then you could maintain a friendship with them where you watch each others pets, share stories about family, friends, travel, hobbies, etc. (Whatever it is that you like to do together).
 
This just seems like a relationship that needs to slide to the level of polite acquaintances. As has been mentioned earlier we allow this to happen all the time with other relationships. We just don’t seem to know how to do this when what we think *ought *to be an important relationship takes a negative turn.

You should accept less of their invitations (and offer less of your own if you have been doing so.) If you are pursuing new interests and relationships this is probably happening anyway.

When you see each other at the grocery store or at other events then you can say hello and catch up on the old neighborhood.
 
Wow! you have all given me thoughtful comments to consider. I re-read my comments and I agree that the Nazi comment would be over the top – but it is truly how I feel. If I was living in Germany during the rise of Hitler, would I have been strong enough to deny the eugenics argument then? Her beliefs are truly dangerous and I equate them to Nazism. I don’t throw that term around lightly.

Through the years I have been trying to put some distance between us. We get together about once every month or two and sometimes talk on the phone – about 90% of the time they initiate.

I don’t feel the same way about others in my life who I don’t agree with politically or who make derogatory, ignorant comments about others. I guess I expect more from Bob & Mary because in our circle of friends and family they are among the most intellectual. They also put themselves up there as big defenders of Native Americans, African Americans, and other ethnicities who have been wronged in our historical past. I don’t disagree.

I thought about this again today and thought I might have an answer ready for the next time she makes another eugenics comment about Downs or something else. I’d like to try it out here and then I intend to practice it so that I will be able to express myself without searching for the right words and tone.

“You know, Mary, the first couple times you brought up eugenics, I thought you were being fecitious to make a point. But I now realize that this is a philosophy you hold. When I hear ideas like that it chills me to the bone. The young woman I teach CCD to brings so much love and joy to every person she encounters. There is a place in this world for everyone – even the weakest among us. I believe God put them on this Earth so that we will all be better people if for no other reason than to appreciate our good health and good fortune. I enjoy our conversations most of the time – even when we don’t see eye to eye – but on the subject of eugenics it might be best if you keep those comments to yourself from now on.”

I’m thinking worded this way it is stong enough to make a point but also an explanation of my beliefs without giving her reason to be defensive.

This is a woman who said I was “rude” during an Ozone Action Day because I didn’t heed the suggestion to wait until evening to cut grass. The grass needed cutting and the middle of the day was the only time I had to get it done. And I’m the rude one!

Thank you again for all your comments. I will continue to read them.
 
They are big defenders of African Americans?
Ask them why black people are 12% of the population, but 37% of the aborted babies are black.
It might be really interesting to hear a liberal answer that.

But you’ve no doubt had those discussions. Maybe its best, as several posters have suggested, to smile and ask your friends to agree to disagree. If they won’t drop it after that, accept fewer and fewer of their invitations.
 
Denise_R said:
“Bob & Mary Smith” were our neighbors for years (we moved about 5 miles away 6 years ago) and we developed a neighborly friendship through those years that developed into a social relationship (mostly from their invitations). However, for quite awhile now I have gone from not really enjoying their company from trying to find ways not to accept invitations to socialize with them at all.

First, they are Lutherans and have anti-Catholic views. Most of their comments are ignorant and I’ve tried to politely correct them many times. They don’t really care about learning the truth about the teaching of the Church and I just try to avoid the subject so as not to sound like they do about Lutheranism.

Second, they are pro-choice. I assumed early on that since they were church-going people who profess to be godly that they would be pro-life. Assume nothing. Through the years I’ve been able to plant seeds without getting into many arguments. One night out for drinks (my husband was talking with some people he knew from work) they decided it was a good time to bring up abortion. Bob tried to make points from a biblical perspective but I said a quick silent prayer to the Holy Spirit and was able to hold my own. Mary came at me with her arguments from a woman’s perspective and I was still able to hold my own. My husband walked over into the middle of it and we politely cut the evening short.

Third, their philosophy is not only pro-choice but pro-eugenics. Bob and Mary have said on more than one occasion (when we are discussing politics or an item in the news) how eugenics makes sense. At first I thought they were being fecitious but soon came to realize they are dead serious. Mary even wrote a paper on it in college.

When talking on the phone with Mary yesterday about the recent octuplets situation she said the woman should not have been allowed to carry all 8 babies to term to which I responded (with scarasm) that it was her choice. If she has a legal choice to kill her kids then she should have the choice to give birth to them. A couple weeks ago I tried to send the point home to them that is what happens when we try to play God with IVF, etc.

The choice comment kind of gave her pause for a second but then she changed the subject slightly by saying, “That’s like the people who think it’s OK for people with Downs Syndrome to marry and have children. Pretty soon we will all be walking around with club feet and nearsidedness.” I was apalled and could only respond by saying, “It’s not contageous.” Then I had to find a way to hang up quickly. She also knows I teach CCD to a girl with Downs who is the sweetest person I have ever met. I have developed a friendship with her mother, who is also one of the nicest peole I know.

I am now trying to figure out if I can end the “friendship” with Mary (Bob and Mary since we do things as couples). My husband is the quiet type and has a live-and-let-live philosophy and doesn’t really get into the politics as much. He understands why I’m upset with Mary and knows I’ve been uncomfortable in our relationship with the Smiths for years because of these views as well as the general arrogance they always display. He doesn’t really enjoy their company that much either but thinks we should continue the friendship (doesn’t like confrontation either).

Until now, I’ve tried to be a good example and not cause waves but I just don’t know if I can let the recent comments stand. If I ignore them and continue on with the friendship, then am I really being a good example or am I being a doormat?

If I do end the friendship, how would I do it? I would want her to know many of the reasons without sounding judgemental but explaining that it would be like being friends with a known Nazi. Would I send an email or letter? I’m better at expressing myself by writing. She is the stronger personality (college-educated and well-read confidence) and I wouldn’t be able to adequately explain my thoughts verbally.

We are dog-sitting for them for 2 weeks when they go on their annual Mexico trip at the end of February. Should I so something now (possibly ruining their trip – they don’t like people not to like them) or wait until they return and deal with it then? Is it even moral to remain friends with them?

Any comments are appreciated.
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To me, friendship implues the presence of love. I don’t see the love.

There are two types of friens as I have seen them in my lifetime - friends of the heart and friends of the road. It seems as if these people are the latter - some people that you met on ytour journey in life, shared a bit, and moved on. friends of the heart are people who you may not see or even talk to for years at a time, but when you see them, it is as if mo time has passed and you start up again as fast and dear friends.

As I have grown older and become a grandfather, I am asked by many children for advice on relationships and such. After I as if they REALLY want my advice (lol), I give it to them. Many people ask about such friendships. Life is too short to continue to throw your pearls before swine. You have made your points and seemingly your peace with these folk. Ignore them, write them a letter, talk to them, or do whatever you think is charitable and least rude - but I think it is over and you simply need to move on.

And when you do - I am sure that other friends will take their place in the not too distant future. You and your spouse sound like terrific people. Keep the faith and do not stop defending life issues and your Catholic faith. Store up those treasures in Heaven!!

Good luck!👍
 
Denise_R said:
“You know, Mary, the first couple times you brought up eugenics, I thought you were being fecitious to make a point. But I now realize that this is a philosophy you hold. When I hear ideas like that it chills me to the bone. The young woman I teach CCD to brings so much love and joy to every person she encounters. There is a place in this world for everyone – even the weakest among us. I believe God put them on this Earth so that we will all be better people if for no other reason than to appreciate our good health and good fortune. I enjoy our conversations most of the time – even when we don’t see eye to eye – but on the subject of eugenics it might be best if you keep those comments to yourself from now on.”
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Sounds like a great start to opening a dialogue about what seems to bother you; the unkindness and ramifications linked to the opinion.

It is awfully hard to believe that people (especially people that have more sense than God gave a rock) can take seriously the idea of eugenics and it’s not such a leap from removing imperfections from the existing in this human race to a “master race.” It is a really scary idea to me, too.

As an aside, I had the pleasure of teaching CCD to a young lady with Down’s, as well. To think that someone might have omitted her from my life (let alone her parents who are doting), I can’t imagine. I still remember her crowning the statue of Mary at the May Crowning/Rosary, she (and her parents) couldn’t believe she would stand in front of the church and do it, but she seemed so serious and happy about being able to participate in such an important way.

I also have a cousin who has Down’s and again, I cannot fathom her not having the opportunity to exist because nature chose to endow her an extra chromosome (or part of one).
 
Viki63 said:
They are big defenders of African Americans?
Ask them why black people are 12% of the population, but 37% of the aborted babies are black.
It might be really interesting to hear a liberal answer that.
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Um, please explain yourself here. I am trying my best to not be offended hoping that I am reading your comment incorrectly so please as fast as you can explain what you meant by the above comment.
 
I really feel for you. You want to be her friend yet at the same time she has view points that are a lot different than yours. If you do decide to break off the friendship, I would not send her a letter or an email. Written words are forever. My stepmother sent me a terrible letter about 15 years ago and then didn’t talk to me for 10 years after that. Now we talk (but have never made amends) but I still have that letter and I am still hurt whenever I read it. I do have reasons for keeping it that I won’t go into. So please, don’t write anything to her because it will be forever.

And just a little side note if you get into a debate, males with Down Syndrome are sterile.
 
noclevername said:
Um, please explain yourself here. I am trying my best to not be offended hoping that I am reading your comment incorrectly so please as fast as you can explain what you meant by the above comment.
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I can’t answer for the other poster but it looks like amongst some of the abortion movement, African-Americans have been targeted. It looks like Margaret Sanger (founder of Planned Parenthood) had an agenda regarding this.

So it seems really ironic that those that defend and protect African Americans are complacent in a movement that has had a history of targeting and undermining that very race.

I don’t have sources off the top of my head, but just research Margaret Sanger, I think there are some primary sources of her own writings that confirm her position.
 
Denise_R said:
“You know, Mary, the first couple times you brought up eugenics, I thought you were being fecitious to make a point. But I now realize that this is a philosophy you hold. When I hear ideas like that it chills me to the bone. The young woman I teach CCD to brings so much love and joy to every person she encounters. There is a place in this world for everyone – even the weakest among us. I believe God put them on this Earth so that we will all be better people if for no other reason than to appreciate our good health and good fortune. I enjoy our conversations most of the time – even when we don’t see eye to eye – but on the subject of eugenics it might be best if you keep those comments to yourself from now on.”

I’m thinking worded this way it is stong enough to make a point but also an explanation of my beliefs without giving her reason to be defensive.
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I don’t think you have a thing to worry about in the “well-spoken” department; this is beautiful and eloquent.

My sense would be, as other posters have mentioned, to simply let this friendship die a natural death; it happens all the time, for many reasons. The reasons you have mentioned are certainly serious, and it has ceased to be a pleasurable and edifying relationship for you. Their views are chilling and it sounds as if they don’t keep them to themselves.

I would simply become unavailable (though I think you’re stuck with the dog-sitting.)
 
for Mary,

ForMary. you’re trying to figure out what to do with these folks…

i had a pal (sister, in fact, and i still have her) who would every now and again want to spend some time with me just so she could do a little clubhouse sparring with anti-catholic gloves on. when i toughed up, got some answers, and made her work for her TKOs or refused to let her get them altogether, she stopped bringing up any fight club topics. now we live in peace and harmony.

but you’ve gotten much good advice already. i.e., watch the dog, refuse invitations. once every coupla months is not an overwhelming number of invitations to refuse.

the head-scratcher is this: for a couple who likes to be liked, they sure have a funny way of showing it.

the rest are some asides (otherwise known as threadjacking) for future use:

the sad facts are these: while the Down Syndrom male is overwhelmingly sterile, the Down Syndrom woman has an 80% chance of giving birth to a DS child with profound mental disabilities.

the sadder fact is this: in order to minimize this risk-- and it is a risk that a developmentally disabled woman should have a profoundly mentally disabled baby-- families often decide to sterlize their DS daughters in order so they may be sexaully active or even civilly married.

as far as i understand, the Catholic Church will refuse to accept solemn vows from any idividual who is mentally disabled, so the DS person cannot get married in the church.

i learned these things since my daughter was born with DS. as you said, a true blessing and a profound joy. everyone who knows her has been changed.

the DS individual should be encouraged to live a happy, full of love, a life of chastity, a life of prayer and service, a life of community, peace, and joy, a life of creativity and purpose.

(the real horror story is this-- while the general population has a one in seven chance of being sexually abused in his/her lifetime, the developmentally disabled person has a one in two chance of being sexually abused. problem is, they make bad witnesses so convictions are almost nil. worse still, in my state, those with guardianship over the adult DS woman have to sign a waiver to refuse her ABC (if she’s not already strerilized) because ABC is a routine service proveded for the developmentally disabled person. it is my opinion, and the opinion of many parents of adult DS women in our state, the expectation of ABC makes the DD woman a **bullseye **for sexual perpetrators who want to avoid any consequences like conviction or pregnancy. most ***do ***want to avoid those consequences, ya know?)

because of this and because we have always loved DS individuals as some of our most beloved friends, our intent is to found a lay association of DS women. living in community, like a religious order, but with private vows to live in peaceful, prayerful edifying community with each other.)

also, another poster had written about the abortion statistics in the black community. any supporter of civil rights should know this: in addition to the horrible statistic that black women represnt37% of abortions but blacks only 15% of US population, black women abort 50% of their pregnancies.

any supporter of black civil rights in the US should know this. here’s just one amongst many interesting and sad pages on the topic, including some information on Margaret Sanger and eugenics: http://www.nationalblackprolifeunion.com/?page_id=28 betcha the neiughbors evade the fact that eugenics stemmed from entirely racist motives.

finally, ForMary, on another topic completely, would you please consider top posting some of the techniques you use for teaching a DS child catechism in an inclusive environment? I am sooooo in need of some information and experienced advice!
 
I can only tell you how somebody did it to me once. I’m not sure they meant to do it, but I was dropped by means of other people.

The situation was I had a best friend who got married, and we used to spend a good many hours of the weekends together, but although I expected I would see my time with him cut due to being married it got to virtually nothing.

Basically what happened, is he kept telling me about all these fabulous in-laws and all the time he was spending with them. Over time, it got to the point where he was rushed from being with me into something else having to do with them, and I just stopped talking to them. I haven’t seen him in at least 10 years. There’s just no reason to see him, when I’m so much the bottom of the priorities. I think he also started to draw the conclusion, that I was too boring compared to his in-laws and so part of the seperation was deliberate on his part too, as he certainly hasn’t called me or anything in a long time.

My prior best friend, more or less did the same thing. They always leave the single guy when they marry, although I have been in contact with that first best friend off and on, but we will never do anything significant together again, unless maybe down the road we end up in the same retirement home or all his kids have moved out. I really thought and still think the world of that guy. He even has a wife I like as well, so maybe after their youngest child leaves the nest there might be a possibility.

So that’s my advice, to have much talk about other people, as though the current company is losing your interest. Sort of cruel, but it looks like your separation is going to happen anyway. I know I wouldn’t want to be around them.
 
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