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aball1035
Guest
I read somewhere that before every great civilizationl falls, the birthrate declines. This happened for example in the Roman Empire. My question is, how would it decline if they didn’t have contraception?
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flyingfish
Guest
Do you have a source for whether it declined and if so by how much?
Many things were going on during Rome’s decline, including plagues and wars.
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Jermosh
Guest
Contraception has been recorded from Egyptian times, abortions as well. Its not a new issue.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Jermosh is right, contraception has been around as long as human history has been recorded. Abortions are recorded as early as the greeks, if I remember correctly. It’s been around forever.
If what the OP is saying is true, then it’s kind of obvious that the problem isn’t necessarily the use of contraceptives, but when a society becomes enamored with careless living that they stop having children. People who believe in living this way will generally have that attitude spill over into other areas of their life, and will stop caring about certain things. When you have a society that is hedonistic, you have a society that doesn’t care for one another. When this happens, you see a breakdown.
If what the OP is saying is true, then it’s kind of obvious that the problem isn’t necessarily the use of contraceptives, but when a society becomes enamored with careless living that they stop having children. People who believe in living this way will generally have that attitude spill over into other areas of their life, and will stop caring about certain things. When you have a society that is hedonistic, you have a society that doesn’t care for one another. When this happens, you see a breakdown.
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flyingfish
Guest
Everyone is taking the OP for granted, I did a google about this and I wasn’t able to find anything about falling birth rates in the Roman Empire. They did have plagues though, that could have killed off a lot of the population.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire
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Dale_M
Guest
Yes, the claim is rather large, and certainly not well known. Perhaps the OP can find the source for his statement?
As for ancient contraception, yes, it existed but I don’t think it was very effective. From what I’ve read, most of it fell into the realm of folk medicine, although primitive barrier methods sometimes were used. Only in the twentieth century, and the arrival of latex condoms, did contraception become effective and birth rates shrink.
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Jermosh
Guest
Thats certainly a plausable theory.
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aicirt
Guest
I read that the membrane from sheep’s intestines was used. And they did perform abortions and used herbs etc. to miscarry. Fathers were allowed to kill their children.
I believe the Roman Empire fell because it exceeded its ability to govern. It was spread too thin from Hadrian’s Wall near Scotland, across North Africa, into Asia. It also divided itself into two spheres: Constantinople and Rome. This divided loyalities. And there was the matter of the barbarians at the gates.
It is amazing how much technology was lost and discarded during the Dark Ages.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Actually there was a plant used in either Rome or Greece (not sure which) which was used to the point of extinction to prevent pregnancy. It was highly effective. Barrier methods weren’t the only methods available.
I think you’ll find that many posters stated that they would need to see numbers to believe such a thing, but IF it were true, it could be for the reasons they gave.
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aball1035
Guest
What kind of technology was lost?
Sorry guys, I don’t know the exact source, but I know it was a show on EWTN a few months back. All I can remember sorry
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aicirt
Guest
The Romans built the aquaducts. I don’t believe any additional ones were built after the fall of Rome. Romans also had heated baths,central heating, sewers, plumbing, extensive highways, greenhouses using mica where we now use glass, and an extensive highway system which extended througout the Empire.What kind of technology was lost?
Sorry guys, I don’t know the exact source, but I know it was a show on EWTN a few months back. All I can remember sorry
Realizing the importance of providing medical care for the fighting troops, one of the Ceasars set up a school for medics. The students were required to pass tests before they could administer to the soldiers. The medical care, especially for the elite and troops, was, supposedly, equal to the medical care of the 19th century. Doctors actually boiled their instruments back then. For some reason, the sterilization of the instruments and general cleanliness fell out of use and was not renewed until Dr. Joseph Lister who advocated the use of antiseptics. Doctors were also aware of the medical benefits of the poppy. Injured gladiators gave physicians sever situations on which to practice their skills. One which was developed was traction for broken limbs. Skulls of gladiators indicate they also did head surgery.
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manualman
Guest
It’s amazing to me how arrogant we get in the modern world. Just because a culture didn’t have iPods and Youtube, people think they are stupid. It really is not all that hard to avoid pregnancy. Earlier cultures were, if anything, BETTER observers of the world than we are because they had so much less noise cluttering their minds. Look at the detail in which ancient peoples were able to chart the ‘movement’ of the stars by the season. Do you REALLY think such people would never notice things that lead to temporary or permanent infertility?
I’ve read elsewhere that it has been a consistent trend in civilization that urbanized populations have far fewer children on average that rural and small town communities, regardless of era. Among migrants, the change sometimes takes a few generations, but the fertility rates always go down once a few generations have been urbanized.
This DOES have big implications in a world where food production has become so mechanized and efficient that there is very little economic opportunity for people in rural and small town life. If our economy eliminates those sources of population, where will the future come from?
I have no source, but this would be pretty consistent with the OP claim of Roman fertility collapse. If the Romans essentially became the rich class and the conquered people did all the ‘undesireable’ work on the farm, than it IS likely that they simply got ‘outbred.’ Now I gotta look it up!
I’ve read elsewhere that it has been a consistent trend in civilization that urbanized populations have far fewer children on average that rural and small town communities, regardless of era. Among migrants, the change sometimes takes a few generations, but the fertility rates always go down once a few generations have been urbanized.
This DOES have big implications in a world where food production has become so mechanized and efficient that there is very little economic opportunity for people in rural and small town life. If our economy eliminates those sources of population, where will the future come from?
I have no source, but this would be pretty consistent with the OP claim of Roman fertility collapse. If the Romans essentially became the rich class and the conquered people did all the ‘undesireable’ work on the farm, than it IS likely that they simply got ‘outbred.’ Now I gotta look it up!
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Dale_M
Guest
I dunno… when the Roman Empire divided into East and West, Byzantium (the seat of the Eastern half of the Roman Empire) would have had access to the same technology and knowledge as Rome. And Byzantium had the riches to build and preserve, which Rome increasingly did not. Certainly the Byzantine Empire lasted the late Middle Ages, a bulwark against Islam, only falling after being attacked by Crusaders (!) eager to plunder it.
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GhostOfReason
Guest
Here is an interesting talk that deals with this issue tangentially.
ted.com/talks/lang/eng/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html
ted.com/talks/lang/eng/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html
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JimG
Guest
“In the fourth century, Rome declined steadily in population, and in 400 A.D. possibly counted between 500,000 and 750,000 residents. The collapse of the Western Empire in 395-476 saw Rome decline precipitiously to 75,000 to 100,000 residents by [the year]500.”
tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm
tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm
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Dale_M
Guest
Yes, but that doesn’t say why Rome’s population declined. Rather than pinning the blame on birth control, I think it had more to do with Rome’s decline as an economic and political center. The power, and money, had shifted to Byzantium and Rome faced numerous rival powers in the west.
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Jermosh
Guest
Their main sweetener had sugar of lead in it, I think they called it Mercury Salt or something. I am fascinated that they lasted that long.
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aicirt
Guest
Very interesting. Any clues to how many suffered from lead poisioning causing brain damage? Would Mercury Salt been available to all or just the elite? Maybe that is why so many of the ceasars were crazy?
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John21652
Guest
Step away from talk of birth control and lead pipes for a while and go read a book called Justinian’s Flea.
It’s a stupendous read about how the Western and Eastern Roman Empires declined because of disease. In Justinian’s time, Constantinople was utterly decimated by Bubonic Plague, killing up to 5000 people a day.
Step back in time and Rome was decimated in AD165-180 by the Antonine Plague.
From AD 250 the Plague of Cyprian devastated Rome. “In 251 to 266, at the height of the outbreak, 5,000 people a day were said to be dying in Rome.” It was still raging in 270.
These palgues were thought to have been bought into Rome by returning soldiers. In the case of the plague of Justinian’s time, the spread is traceable along lines of trade, whereby the grain trade attracted rats carrying bubonic plague.
The long and successive plague outbreaks weakened the Roman armies, Rome’s naval capabilities and terribly weakened Rome’s agricultural output at a time when the empire was spread far and wide with a huge military requirement.
Justinian’s Flea explains how the western and eastern empires unravelled because of the devastation wrought by disease. The eastern empire held out the longest until it too was weakened sufficiently to allow the barbarians at the gate to overcome the civilisations of Rome and Constantinople. The Emporer Justinian, if not for the plague, may have successfully recombined the western and eastern empires. If you trawl the Internet, you can read how entire towns and even regions were depopulated and that population recovery took many generations. Some say over twenty million people died during these outbreaks, or around 60% of Europe’s population and that’s way before the outbreaks of the middle ages. Interestingly, most of the depopulation took place in the urban areas and the more rural localities survived with less population decline. These rural areas gave rise to the tribes and nation states which long threatened and eventually overthrew Rome.
It’s a stupendous read about how the Western and Eastern Roman Empires declined because of disease. In Justinian’s time, Constantinople was utterly decimated by Bubonic Plague, killing up to 5000 people a day.
Step back in time and Rome was decimated in AD165-180 by the Antonine Plague.
From AD 250 the Plague of Cyprian devastated Rome. “In 251 to 266, at the height of the outbreak, 5,000 people a day were said to be dying in Rome.” It was still raging in 270.
These palgues were thought to have been bought into Rome by returning soldiers. In the case of the plague of Justinian’s time, the spread is traceable along lines of trade, whereby the grain trade attracted rats carrying bubonic plague.
The long and successive plague outbreaks weakened the Roman armies, Rome’s naval capabilities and terribly weakened Rome’s agricultural output at a time when the empire was spread far and wide with a huge military requirement.
Justinian’s Flea explains how the western and eastern empires unravelled because of the devastation wrought by disease. The eastern empire held out the longest until it too was weakened sufficiently to allow the barbarians at the gate to overcome the civilisations of Rome and Constantinople. The Emporer Justinian, if not for the plague, may have successfully recombined the western and eastern empires. If you trawl the Internet, you can read how entire towns and even regions were depopulated and that population recovery took many generations. Some say over twenty million people died during these outbreaks, or around 60% of Europe’s population and that’s way before the outbreaks of the middle ages. Interestingly, most of the depopulation took place in the urban areas and the more rural localities survived with less population decline. These rural areas gave rise to the tribes and nation states which long threatened and eventually overthrew Rome.
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