End of "First Communion" Celebrations in US Melkite Greek Catholic Church

[RyanBlack]

This might be a case here of talking at cross purposes, above or aside the other person’s head. no one was being separated from communion. If you really want to know why some Melkites were holding Sacred Eucharistic Liturgy take a good long hard look at that iconic icon you present with all of your posts, maybe then you’ll understand and at least you’ll understand why they were donig these ceremonies to begin with.

Any of the following has no place as an authentic Byzantine liturgical practice if it is separated from baptism apart from true necessity: Confirmation, First Communion, or First “Solemn” Communion (as if there were any other sort of Holy Communion). All of them are ultimately a result of the imposition of Latin practices on Eastern Catholics outside of their traditional territories. For some reason (to be honest, I don’t know the history well enough to know whether it was an imposition from Rome or self-imposed out a desire to appear to be “true” Catholics), chrismation and admittance to communion were separated from baptism among Byzantine Catholics in the West. When this happened (and it never should have), Byzantine Catholics began to have Confirmation and First Communion celebrations like those held by Roman Catholics. Then, when the various Byzantine Catholic churches began to restore the practice of infant chrismation and admittance to communion, some began to observe “First Solemn Confession” and “First Solemn Communion” as essentially a way of replacing the Confirmation and First Communion celebrations to which they had grown accustomed. Since none of this should have happened to start with, they are not authentic aspects of traditional Byzantine liturgical practice. Given this, it is entirely fitting that Bishop Nicholas should ask that they cease. We baptize, chrismate, and commune our children in infancy (and we celebrate it). However, we do not empasize the age of reason with regard to chrismation and Eucharist as the West does (but only since the 13th century), and so the communing of a child (who was admitted to Holy Communion in infancy) for the first time at the age of reason is no more significant than any other time the child communes. For us, each act of communion is solemn.

 

[Vico]

Does the use of legitimately just mean licitly? Where as illegitimately would me illicitly?

Which then does fit within canon law.

Having ask that, though, your point in this reply is?

To abide by the instructions of the magisterium, to keep the traditions, to restore the proper traditions. We read in:

Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches

Issued January 6, 1996 by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches - The Vatican Libreria Editrice Vaticana - 1996

CHAPTER VII

The Sacraments of Christian Initiation

**42. The link between the sacraments of Initiation **

An indication given by the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches that differs from the frequent use and even from the particular legislation of the last centuries is the affirmation of the strict link existing between the three sacraments of Christian Initiation, which also must result in the way of celebrating them. Initiation is, in reality, the one and indivisible celebration of the entrance into the life of Christ, into the community that lives in him. This entrance, initiated with the first call to the faith, reaches its culminating point in the Pascal Mystery of Christ, in whose death we are immersed to be raised in his resurrection which renders us children of God and the temple of the Spirit. “Anointed” by the Spirit for the work of the Kingdom, we are thus rendered fit to participate in the banquet of the Kingdom. This is the motivating factor in the composition of cann. 695 and 697 which prescribe the administration of the three sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation with the holy Myron, and Holy Communion in conjunction with or at least one not long after another.

According to the doctrine and practice of the ancient Church, inspired by the New Testament, the faithful who received the eschatological gift of the Spirit of the Risen accepted that the same Spirit operate in his or her person the assimilation to Christ the Lord. The baptismal rebirth as children of God, inheritors of the Kingdom, justified, redeemed and sanctified, entailed the full entrance into the people of God. The ultimate “sign” of this event was the admission to the banquet of the Kingdom. That indivisible sacrament was, therefore, necessarily conferred, with the most coherence, in a single celebrative context.
byzcath.org/faith/documents/instruction.htm

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

To abide by the instructions of the magisterium, to keep the traditions, to restore the proper traditions. We read in:

Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches

Issued January 6, 1996 by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches - The Vatican Libreria Editrice Vaticana - 1996

CHAPTER VII

The Sacraments of Christian Initiation

**42. The link between the sacraments of Initiation **

An indication given by the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches that differs from the frequent use and even from the particular legislation of the last centuries is the affirmation of the strict link existing between the three sacraments of Christian Initiation, which also must result in the way of celebrating them. Initiation is, in reality, the one and indivisible celebration of the entrance into the life of Christ, into the community that lives in him. This entrance, initiated with the first call to the faith, reaches its culminating point in the Pascal Mystery of Christ, in whose death we are immersed to be raised in his resurrection which renders us children of God and the temple of the Spirit. “Anointed” by the Spirit for the work of the Kingdom, we are thus rendered fit to participate in the banquet of the Kingdom. This is the motivating factor in the composition of cann. 695 and 697 which prescribe the administration of the three sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation with the holy Myron, and Holy Communion in conjunction with or at least one not long after another.

According to the doctrine and practice of the ancient Church, inspired by the New Testament, the faithful who received the eschatological gift of the Spirit of the Risen accepted that the same Spirit operate in his or her person the assimilation to Christ the Lord. The baptismal rebirth as children of God, inheritors of the Kingdom, justified, redeemed and sanctified, entailed the full entrance into the people of God. The ultimate “sign” of this event was the admission to the banquet of the Kingdom. That indivisible sacrament was, therefore, necessarily conferred, with the most coherence, in a single celebrative context.
byzcath.org/faith/documents/instruction.htm

I am sorry if I am being dense but I get this way sometimes after treatment (which was yesterday).

So are you saying that what you posted is that you support what Bishop Nicholas is doing and that you agree that solemn first communion should not be practiced in the Melkite Church let alone any of the Byzantine rite Churches?

 

[Vico]

I am sorry if I am being dense but I get this way sometimes after treatment (which was yesterday).

So are you saying that what you posted is that you support what Bishop Nicholas is doing and that you agree that solemn first communion should not be practiced in the Melkite Church let alone any of the Byzantine rite Churches?

Yes, I support Bishop Nicholas. Yes, it you define First Communion as the first time that the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist is received, then it is proper to be at the same time with Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation. In my parish (Byzantine) for infant and adult neophytes all three are given at the same Divine Liturgy. For non-Orthodox converts, Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist at once.

 

[brumano]

Yes, I support Bishop Nicholas. Yes, it you define First Communion as the first time that the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist is received, then it is proper to be at the same time with Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation. In my parish (Byzantine) for infant and adult neophytes all three are given at the same Divine Liturgy. For non-Orthodox converts, Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist at once.

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn’t make any mention of anything like that in his letter. He may need this invaluable help in the future if as it turns out the Melkite Bishops, Pastors, Priests and a large number of the Melkite faithful in the Middle East, and here in his Eparchy have been practicing a Melkite Innovation ( that just so happens to assimilate Latin Eucharistic Theology) of their own spirituality that reconnects them with their very own more truly authentic Sacred Tradition. And let’s face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs; maybe there’s some things that got missed about certain things that really are implicit dogmas of the Catholic Church, from it’s begining in the Scriptures; we don’t receive a Mystery of the Holy Eucharist at our First Communions or at any later Communions through our lives, we receive the real Body and Blood of Christ in the substance of the Host, there is an incomprehensible mystery surrounding the Sacrament but all is not Mystery as Byzantines seem to favor above substantial truths, and above the God given,Christ given, Holy Spirit given dignity of the human person to understand in a real way, and to fully communicate in the Sacraments as they were given, from abov

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it’s anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

 

[Hesychios]

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn’t make any mention of anything like that in his letter. He may need this invaluable help in the future if as it turns out the Melkite Bishops, Pastors, Priests and a large number of the Melkite faithful in the Middle East, and here in his Eparchy have been practicing a Melkite Innovation ( that just so happens to assimilate Latin Eucharistic Theology) of their own spirituality that reconnects them with their very own more truly authentic Sacred Tradition. And let’s face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs; maybe there’s some things that got missed about certain things that really are implicit dogmas of the Catholic Church, from it’s begining in the Scriptures; we don’t receive a Mystery of the Holy Eucharist at our First Communions or at any later Communions through our lives, we receive the real Body and Blood of Christ in the substance of the Host, there is an incomprehensible mystery surrounding the Sacrament but all is not Mystery as Byzantines seem to favor above substantial truths, and above the God given,Christ given, Holy Spirit given dignity of the human person to understand in a real way, and to fully communicate in the Sacraments as they were given, from abov

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it’s anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

This is going to be interesting … :coffeeread:

 

[RyanBlack]

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn’t make any mention of anything like that in his letter.

I’ve pointed out multiple times in this thread which canons were being violated. However, I truly doubt Bishop Nicholas needs any of use here to point that out to him. I rather suspect he already knows.

 

[RyanBlack]

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it’s anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

No, you did not understand correctly. He was referring to converts who have already been baptized but have not yet been chrismated and admitted to communion. That seemed abundantly clear to me.

 

[RyanBlack]

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it’s anti traditional practices

What in the world are you talking about? What he has described is thoroughly consistent with tradition.

 

[RyanBlack]

And let’s face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

No, it is not at all legitimate in a Byzantine context. It is in violation of the Eastern Code of Canon Law to celebrate either chrismation or admission to Holy Communion from baptism without true necessity, which I have demonstrated more than once in this thread.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad. No wonder the world sees Catholicism as just another christian sect as opposed to Christianity itself. So much dissent. If Catholics can’t unite how in the hell can anyone hope to unite protestants and non denominational christians, let alone atheists/agnostics/heretics/satanists/muslims/everyone else who isn’t christian, under Christ in His Church?

 

[RyanBlack]

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad. No wonder the world sees Catholicism as just another christian sect as opposed to Christianity itself. So much dissent. If Catholics can’t unite how in the hell can anyone hope to unite protestants and non denominational christians, let alone atheists/agnostics/heretics/satanists/muslims/everyone else who isn’t christian, under Christ in His Church?

NO ONE is this thread is attaching the Roman Catholic Church, but I have seen quite a bit of attacking of the Eastern Catholic Churches, included in this absurd statement that the Roman Catholic Church is the “truest, purest form of Catholicism”–something I feel quite sure the Vicar of Christ himself would repudiate.

 

[dcointin]

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad. No wonder the world sees Catholicism as just another christian sect as opposed to Christianity itself. So much dissent. If Catholics can’t unite how in the hell can anyone hope to unite protestants and non denominational christians, let alone atheists/agnostics/heretics/satanists/muslims/everyone else who isn’t christian, under Christ in His Church?

Show me any magisterial document that supports your contention that Roman Catholicism is the “truest” or “purest” form of Catholicism.

 

[dcointin]

I’ll provide you with a counter-quote to start:

“Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.”

Pope John Paul II, “Orientale Lumen”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

 

[dcointin]

“These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church. They are consequently of equal dignity, so that none of them is superior to the others as regards rite and they enjoy the same rights and are under the same obligations, also in respect of preaching the Gospel to the whole world (cf. Mark 16, 15) under the guidance of the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Paul VI, “Orientalium Ecclesiarum”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

 

[Peter_J]

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad. No wonder the world sees Catholicism as just another christian sect as opposed to Christianity itself. So much dissent. If Catholics can’t unite how in the hell can anyone hope to unite protestants and non denominational christians, let alone atheists/agnostics/heretics/satanists/muslims/everyone else who isn’t christian, under Christ in His Church?

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn’t make any mention of anything like that in his letter. He may need this invaluable help in the future if as it turns out the Melkite Bishops, Pastors, Priests and a large number of the Melkite faithful in the Middle East, and here in his Eparchy have been practicing a Melkite Innovation ( that just so happens to assimilate Latin Eucharistic Theology) of their own spirituality that reconnects them with their very own more truly authentic Sacred Tradition. And let’s face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs; maybe there’s some things that got missed about certain things that really are implicit dogmas of the Catholic Church, from it’s begining in the Scriptures; we don’t receive a Mystery of the Holy Eucharist at our First Communions or at any later Communions through our lives, we receive the real Body and Blood of Christ in the substance of the Host, there is an incomprehensible mystery surrounding the Sacrament but all is not Mystery as Byzantines seem to favor above substantial truths, and above the God given,Christ given, Holy Spirit given dignity of the human person to understand in a real way, and to fully communicate in the Sacraments as they were given, from abov

I must say that, even though I’m a long-time participant on CAF, this thread surprises me in how anti-Melkite (or anti-Byzantine) it is at times.

 

[Peter_J]

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it’s anti traditional practices;

It isn’t always easy to say how traditional is traditional enough. For example, I mostly definitely believe that the LCC went too far when they switched the order of sacraments from Baptism-Confirmation-Eucharist to Baptism-Eucharist-Confirmation; but some would say they were already untraditional just by delaying Confirmation and First Communion till the age of reason.

 

[Vico]

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn’t make any mention of anything like that in his letter. He may need this invaluable help in the future if as it turns out the Melkite Bishops, Pastors, Priests and a large number of the Melkite faithful in the Middle East, and here in his Eparchy have been practicing a Melkite Innovation ( that just so happens to assimilate Latin Eucharistic Theology) of their own spirituality that reconnects them with their very own more truly authentic Sacred Tradition. And let’s face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs; maybe there’s some things that got missed about certain things that really are implicit dogmas of the Catholic Church, from it’s begining in the Scriptures; we don’t receive a Mystery of the Holy Eucharist at our First Communions or at any later Communions through our lives, we receive the real Body and Blood of Christ in the substance of the Host, there is an incomprehensible mystery surrounding the Sacrament but all is not Mystery as Byzantines seem to favor above substantial truths, and above the God given,Christ given, Holy Spirit given dignity of the human person to understand in a real way, and to fully communicate in the Sacraments as they were given, from abov[e.]

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it’s anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

I must have left something out. Baptism is a pre-requisite for reception of other Holy Mysteries. Here is how it is done:

1. Non-baptized:
   Holy Baptism, Holy Chrismation, and Holy Eucharist at once for those 14 or older electing to be ascribed to this eastern Church sui iuris. (But only Holy Baptism is given for one to be ascribed to the Latin church of parent or guardian.)
2. Orthodox (Eastern, Oriental, Church of the East) profession of Catholic faith:
   reception with ascription to the closest eastern Catholic Church sui iuris. * If one’s spouse is eastern Catholic, one may elect to be ascribed to their Church sui iuris. In that case, their baptized children under age 14 also change Church, so would also receive Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. (Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist are given if not previously received when Orthodox.)
3. Baptized non-Catholic and non-Orthodox:
   If one’s spouse is eastern Catholic, one may elect to be ascribed to their Church sui iuris, and so can receive Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist at once if not already received. In that case, their baptized children under age 14 also change Church, so would also receive Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist if not already received.

• permission required when jurisdictions overlap.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What in the world are you talking about? What he has described is thoroughly consistent with tradition.

But not his tradition.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And let’s face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

Just a question. How is withholding graces beneficial?