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Byz_Guy
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Me too. But, the guitar was even more of a surprise.
Then, again, when I visit Greek parishes I have a hard time with the organ too.
End of "First Communion" Celebrations in US Melkite Greek Catholic Church
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Then, again, when I visit Greek parishes I have a hard time with the organ too.
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couponfit
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I like that clarifying phrase… “…if properly taught by their parents”.
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Hesychios
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Yes, a bummer.
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Phillip_Rolfes
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Christians turning on their fellow Christians has been going on in the Church pretty much since the day that Constantine legalized Christianity for the Roman Empire. Nothing is new under the sun. Don’t pray for the second coming of Christ to put an end to these things. Pray that Christ’s prayer at the Last Supper, that we all be one, be fulfilled and that all Christians fully embrace Christ’s Gospel, with all its implications.
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TimothyH
Guest
Is the drama really needed?
If you think the change worthy then celebrate it for it’s worthiness. Celebrate it for what it is. Even if you think it is a latin innoviation, which I am not arguing, is there really a need to disparage anyone or anything else with words like, “Die, die!”?
It sound’s like the Bishop is addressing the latinization of the Church which God has placed him in a position of authority over in a very worthy manner. I wish him well. Creating an enemy however, and then standing on his body and celebrating his death, if the imagery isn’t a bit melodramatic, does nothing to help the bishop in his efforts.
At a minimum, and if it matters to you, such comments do nothing to engender warm feelings in Roman Catholics toward the Eastern Catholics, not to mention fulfilling Jesus’ prayer for unity in John 17.
And I’m surprised at you Phillip. I had long considered visiting the Melkite Church you had mentioned next time I am Athens, Georgia on business. Consider if the shoe were on the other foot.
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Cristiano
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I think that the couple was poorly catechized. The children did not receive the sacrament while they were in the womb, to say so it is poor understanding of the sacraments and bad theology.
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Phillip_Rolfes
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??? Tim, I’m very sorry if I’ve said something offensive. Would you mind pointing it out to me so that I can either comment or correct myself?
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RyanBlack
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While I would not use such language as that used by WetCatechumen, I think you should consider the history of the imposition of Latin practices and a Latin mindet on Eastern Catholics before getting so upset over the comment. The history is quite sad, and in some senses, even shameful. Such responses really aren’t all that surprising, when you consider the history.
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Cristiano
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I am a strong admirer of the practices of the Eastern Churches and I think that innovations that are not part of the culture of a specific Church (e.g. some innovations from the Latin rite) should not be implemented. However, I found the statement insulting because it was simply focusing on being Latin innovations and not even on their lack of merit.
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ByzCathCantor
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Cristiano - we appreciate your sentiments, and while I do not condone such statements, it is important that you understand Ryan’s comments as well. As a Ruthenian, whose immigrants were among the first to have suffered through a less than welcoming reception in the New World by certain Latin clergy and hierarchs who preceded them, I can assure you that the damage was substantial, disrupting both Church and family in many instances. The wounds are just healing, thanks to the courage and sincerity of several hierarchs of recent days, many of whom were recently called in repose by the Lord.
If we are to hope, as I pray, that the Apostolic Churches reunite, it is important that the wounds that have been self-inflicted within the Church be fully tended and healed. Our Orthodox brethren know the stories all too well, and rightfully must view the current status of the Eastern Catholic Churches as indicative of what they might expect in a restored communion. It is up to all of us as Catholics, East and West, Latin and Eastern / Oriental, to prove otherwise.
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Jakub
Guest
Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*The history of Latinization in all of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches is very complex and very sad. In some cases the Latinizations were all but mandated by Rome. In other cases the Easterners or Orientals felt they had to adopt certain Latin practices just to “prove” that they were Catholic. Often Latinization was done as a response to severe persecution of Eastern Catholics by none other than their Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.
I agree, and some respond out of true anguish…
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*The history of Latinization in all of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches is very complex and very sad. In some cases the Latinizations were all but mandated by Rome. In other cases the Easterners or Orientals felt they had to adopt certain Latin practices just to “prove” that they were Catholic. Often Latinization was done as a response to severe persecution of Eastern Catholics by none other than their Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.
I agree, and some respond out of true anguish…
*
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Phillip_Rolfes
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What many Roman Catholics don’t realize is the extent to which many Eastern Catholics have gone to maintain communion with Rome. Ukraine is the best example. That country, being bordered as it is by Roman Catholic Poland on one side and Orthodox Russia on the other, has taken the brunt of mistrust and even hatred from those two countries, especially during the Communist regime. Many Ukrainian Catholics were martyred for their very Catholicism under the Communist regime simply because they were Catholic and not Orthodox.Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The history of Latinization in all of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches is very complex and very sad. In some cases the Latinizations were all but mandated by Rome. In other cases the Easterners or Orientals felt they had to adopt certain Latin practices just to “prove” that they were Catholic. Often Latinization was done as a response to severe persecution of Eastern Catholics by none other than their Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.
I agree, and some respond out of true anguish…
Likewise on the side of Ukraine nearest to Poland Ukrainian Catholics were often executed/martyred because they were suspected of being “Russophiles” and their loyalties to the State were questioned. Many Ukrainian Catholics in those regions adopted Latin practices simply for survival; again to “prove” to the Polish Catholics that the Ukrainians were every bit as Catholic as the Poles.
In many cases the Latinizations became badges of honor because they were preserved in the face of severe persecution from the Russian government. On the other hand, maintaining a true “Byzantine” identity and practice often became a badge of honor as well, because these traditions too were preserved in the face of severe persecution. My guess is that this is why one will run into some Ukrainian parishes that are heavily Latinized, and then others that, for all intents and purposes, are Orthodox, save for their communion with Rome.
On the official level, according to Cyril Korolevsky, Rome has never officially mandated or supported the Latinization of the Eastern Churches. In fact, it has consistently spoken out against such Latinizations and encouraged Eastern and Oriental Catholics to be true to their Orthodox roots, and to reclaim those customs that have perhaps been abandoned and replaced by Latinizations. This is true especially since the Second Vatican Council. But the process of de-Latinization is also a pastoral problem as well as a theological and disciplinary problem (yes theology is involved). The pastoral problem comes in especially when faced with customs that people have literally died to defend and uphold. How does one pastorally go about a process of de-Latinization in the face of the fact that people have literally died for the Latinization that was being abandoned?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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I am saddened that he felt the need to do so in a public manner.Well, its about time a bishop puts such clergymen in their proper places
This undermines the credibility of all the priests in the eparchy.
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Phillip_Rolfes
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Cristiano
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I do not know which stand to make here. I can see that in the short term it is a loose-loose situation. I have seen quite a few ordained men in the Latin Church that attacked their own bishop without too much thinking about the consequences and the promise of obedience, and unless the bishop will address them publicly I doubt that they will change attitude. It is just a sad think to see.
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ByzCathCantor
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I confessed in an earlier post to knowing Bishop Samra personally, while not enjoying the benefits of being a member of his flock. That said, I can point to dozens of recent examples in my own Byzantine-Ruthenian church where the efforts of hierarchs to restore traditions and / or do what they felt was in the best interests of preserving the traditions with which they have been entrusted (lest we forget that is the case) were met with strong opposition of clergy and laity (not arguing the merits of the related concerns and issues). In some cases, the express instructions of the hierarchs were ignored. Right, wrong or indifferent, we are entrusted to their care, and they must exercise their role as hierarchs with conviction and full knowledge of the consequences of failure in their pastoral mission.
In Bishop Samra’s case, I very much believe he will follow-up with pastoral catechesis for his own clergy and then expect them in turn to properly catechize the adults in their own parishes. There is no other way to go about this. Accommodation always leads to both delay in transition and to inevitable re-interpretation via exception in practice. The only way to acclimate quickly to cold water is to jump in without hesitation.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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What is there to elaborate on?Hi Br. David!!!
Would you mind elaborating on your response here?
The bishop publicly stated “I ask you priests and deacons especially, to walk with me on this issue, even if you have personal objections. You should not be telling your faithful that you disagree with your bishop in a public manner; this only creates dissention. Teach our proper customs, and I expect your full support.”
Which brings to mind that he does not trust any of the priests serving in the eparchy.
I can understand how lay people might applaud such a statement.
I have a different perspective due to the state in life I am in. As one who is working towards the priesthood and am a consecrated religious, I think this is a very bad move on the part of Bishop Samra, up until this I greatly admired him. Now I just don’t know.
As I said, I am deeply saddened.
This can (and should be IMHO) on an individual basis. You do not tar the who group with disobedience. You take it on as it happens on a case by case basis.
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Phillip_Rolfes
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Thanks, Br. David. I was just curious.
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CDB1718
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As a parent, I have a different perspective. I think it helps to protect the priests. This way, everyone is clear up front and the priests aren’t put in a position of having to defend or explain why they allowed first communion for little Maryam last week but aren’t allowing it for little George this week. He’s protecting them from attempts of emotional manipulation and giving them a fallback when a hurt mother or angry grandfather shows up in a priest’s office. It allows the clergy to put all the pressure and blame back on the bishop who is willing to take the backlash for them while they can maintain the good relations with their parishioners. I think it is a very wise and pastoral move.
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ByzCathCantor
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Br. David - I can see how you might have read this, especially projecting forward to the day that you might be on the receiving end of such a letter.
First, I’m sure he did not mean to implicate all priests. He was probably just trying to exert some level of peer pressure in support of the cause, but can understand your perspective and also consider how I might have read this had I been a member of the clergy, as well.
That said, I’m not so sure the lay reaction would be universally positive either, and in that respect, that this letter has now become public (instead of a private communication between bishop and clergy as must have been intended) is indeed unfortunate on a number of counts.
Knowing how such endeavors were received in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church, I have a great deal of empathy for both Bishop Samra and his clergy. As a younger cantor, I was once called a heretic in church after the Divine Liturgy when I was first instructed (directly by our Bishop - I was serving at the Cathedral parish in Passaic at the time) to discontinue chanting the paranthetically inserted filioque in the Creed. I was told by a livid parishioner that I should go down the street and join the Russian Orthodox Church where I’d be happy. All for my obedience and participation in restoring our traditions! In fairness, was this change announced? Did the bishop or concelebrating priest explain why this was done? Were the faithful properly catechized on this point in advance (or afterward for that matter)? No, no and no!
We must remember that the things that are to be changed have long been accepted as the norm. Catechesis will be required at every level likely to make this a success. Probably some form of personally delivered message to all clergy would have been preferable to a letter, as the opportunity to educate as well as instruct would have been present. They are in the position of having to “sell” this to the laity, and it will be a challenge in some (perhaps many) instances.
It is a rightful cause, deserving of a rightful message and acceptance. We pray that can be accomplished.
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