End of life discussion

[angell1]

so i was having a discussion with a professor of mind and the topic of euthanasia came up.

i thought i said it was wrong, and she went in to a whole story about how her dad tried to kill himself when he had been tired of living and how he should have had that medical option and all that.

i tried to disagree but i don’t think i really got anywhere. of course, she’s not a christian so she compared it with mercy killiings for animals which of course, i said wasn’t the same thing at all.

i know i cna’t change peoples’ opinions but the next part concerns me.

she started talking about her own living will and how she had written that she didn’t want any kind of life support if anything happened. and she said “i expect my friends to pull the plug in that case” and patted my arm.

the thing is, her an i are pretty close and i’m afraid of being stuck in that very situation someday. according to catohlic teaching, is one allowed to say that they don’t want life support if something happened to them?

i guess the only good thing about the living will is that i woulldn’t have to make any decisions if it did come to it.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

the thing is, her an i are pretty close and i’m afraid of being stuck in that very situation someday. according to catohlic teaching, is one allowed to say that they don’t want life support if something happened to them?

Yes, it is. Because pulling the plug is not euthanasia. If a person is dependent on a machine for air it is up to that person to decide if it is a benefit or burdon with all things considered. Sam goes for CPR.

It is too bad such fear was promoted about “death panels”. These discussions between patients, families and physicians are important and yet we are all reluctant to have them.

But if we have a living will we can state our wishes for or against medical interventions.

 

[GenerationHV]

so i was having a discussion with a professor of mind and the topic of euthanasia came up.

i thought i said it was wrong, and she went in to a whole story about how her dad tried to kill himself when he had been tired of living and how he should have had that medical option and all that.

i tried to disagree but i don’t think i really got anywhere. of course, she’s not a christian so she compared it with mercy killiings for animals which of course, i said wasn’t the same thing at all.

i know i cna’t change peoples’ opinions but the next part concerns me.

she started talking about her own living will and how she had written that she didn’t want any kind of life support if anything happened. and she said “i expect my friends to pull the plug in that case” and patted my arm.

the thing is, her an i are pretty close and i’m afraid of being stuck in that very situation someday. according to catohlic teaching, is one allowed to say that they don’t want life support if something happened to them?

i guess the only good thing about the living will is that i woulldn’t have to make any decisions if it did come to it.

You are not required to initiate or continue any life support measures. You are not required to initiate or continue any medical treatment except supportive care ie offering food water bath turning etc. a Catholic with stage 4 cancer is allowed to try every treatment or go on hospice. A catholic who cannot breath on their own from a terminal illness can have a breathing tube permanently, temporarily or never.

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

I am so glad there is a discussion on this topic. I have reached the point where Drs, have stamped an expiration date on me ( I have already passed one expiration date), My medical care team is pressuring me to sign “their Final Arrangements Document”. It is a check the box sort of thing none of which are acceptable to me. When I got the news that the numbers were not good for my survival, I met with my priest (just ordained a month) and he brought me a stack of research about 1/4 inch thick It included quotes from the CCC, The Bible and several Encyclicals based on this information and my own wishes I hand wrote a “living will” It was witnessed by the priest. My medical facility refuses to accept this document.
Here is what the CCC says on the subject.
“Euthanasia
2276 Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible.
2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable.
Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.
2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.
2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged”
I felt that one experiences life fully by experiencing death fully. I wish to experience death as Jesus did. That means when I am terminal I will refuse all pain killers
Mark 15:23 And they offered him wine mixed with myrrh; but he did not take it. This was in the unacceptable “living will”
Bottom line is I fear, you will be offered only those life sustaining measures you or your insurance can pay for. Cynical? Yes but I fear is is realistic

 

[mikeeh]

I feel like euthanasia can easily become eugenics.

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

You are definately right about the relation of Eugenics to Euthanasia. Belgium has become the leader in this field. lifenews.com/2013/11/11/belgium-debate-continues-on-bill-to-legalize-euthanasia-for-disabled-children/

I is this inherent in Obamacare decide for yourself lifenews.com/2013/10/03/euthanasia-activists-say-obamacare-will-lead-to-more-assisted-suicides/

I can only say I feel the presure

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Bottom line is I fear, you will be offered only those life sustaining measures you or your insurance can pay for. Cynical? Yes but I fear is is realistic :

You would like the government to pay?

 

[TARRAT]

Yes, it is. Because pulling the plug is not euthanasia. If a person is dependent on a machine for air it is up to that person to decide if it is a benefit or burdon with all things considered. Sam goes for CPR.

It is too bad such fear was promoted about “death panels”. These discussions between patients, families and physicians are important and yet we are all reluctant to have them.

But if we have a living will we can state our wishes for or against medical interventions.

Death panels such as are in the latest legislation on health care are not panels that say you can’t pull your own plug it is the government refusing you what you may need for a more pleasureable end to your life. It is the government dictating your end years.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Death panels such as are in the latest legislation on health care are not panels that say you can’t pull your own plug it is the government refusing you what you may need for a more pleasureable end to your life. It is the government dictating your end years.

Can you provide a text from that?

I mean, I think the original version provided for counseling near the end of life to make the best decisions. That is not a “Death Panel”. Rationing care may be but that has been happening anyway all along.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Death panels such as are in the latest legislation on health care are not panels that say you can’t pull your own plug it is the government refusing you what you may need for a more pleasureable end to your life. It is the government dictating your end years.

I think it would be medicare not paying for futile aggressive therapies, opting rather, to pay for palliative care. If the patient wanted those aggressive therapies that patient can still pay for them with own resources or private insurance if it covers them.

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

Can you provide a text from that?

I mean, I think the original version provided for counseling near the end of life to make the best decisions. That is not a “Death Panel”. Rationing care may be but that has been happening anyway all along.

I have had some of those “counseling” sessions and they are not counseling they are Pressure Now it might just be my health care system. The last time I was hospitalized the first order of business was not taking my vital signs. No it was the nurse with an already filled out document saying sign this DNR. Needless to say I ripped it and lucky I did because I needed resuscitation. I also feel that the proper “end of life counselors” are priests. The other “counselors” merely Satan’s mouthpiece" pressuring very vulnerable people to commit mortal sin with their very last breath****

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I have had some of those “counseling” sessions and they are not counseling they are Pressure Now it might just be my health care system. The last time I was hospitalized the first order of business was not taking my vital signs. No it was the nurse with an already filled out document saying sign this DNR. Needless to say I ripped it and lucky I did because I needed resuscitation. I also feel that the proper “end of life counselors” are priests. The other “counselors” merely Satan’s mouthpiece" pressuring very vulnerable people to commit mortal sin with their very last breath****

The counselling should be with your personal physician who can give you the most likely outcome of interventions so you can decide what you want. A DNR is not signed by a patient. It is Do Not Resuscitate Order of the physcian. The nurse probably had an Advance Directive of Durable power of Attorney (giving you the opportunity to appoint someone else to make decisions if you cannot make them) and Living will (expressing your desires ahead of time in case you cannot exress them.)

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

The counselling should be with your personal physician who can give you the most likely outcome of interventions so you can decide what you want. A DNR is not signed by a patient. It is Do Not Resuscitate Order of the physcian. The nurse probably had an Advance Directive of Durable power of Attorney (giving you the opportunity to appoint someone else to make decisions if you cannot make them) and Living will (expressing your desires ahead of time in case you cannot exress them.)

What does my physician know about the likely outcomes of the interventions? Has he studied three plus years in the Seminary? No I believe the only outcomes my physician will discuss with me are the ones he wants. The final outcome of my accepting or rejecting those interventions is where my soul will be in eternity? The final outcome is heaven or hell.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

What does my physician know about the likely outcomes of the interventions? Has he studied three plus years in the Seminary? No I believe the only outcomes my physician will discuss with me are the ones he wants. The final outcome of my accepting or rejecting those interventions is where my soul will be in eternity? The final outcome is heaven or hell.

Of course I was speaking of the practical medical outcomes of the intervention.
It sounds like you do not trust your doctor.

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

My doctor is an atheist (enough said there) I cannot get over to the Catholic health care system because of insurance provider issues. That being said I basically wouldn’t trust the most devout Catholic doctor with these very complicated moral issues they simply do not have the training. The closest, I have come to having a doctor with a Catholic Moral Theological Training was when I was getting my medical care at a Catholic clinic my physician was a nun.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I am sorry you do not have the support you need. Most Catholic doctors are aware of the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services and are able to apply them to their medical practice.

It sounds like you would be most guided by *Part Five: Issues in Care for the Seriously Ill and Dying *starting on page 29. I hope that helps.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/health-care/upload/Ethical-Religious-Directives-Catholic-Health-Care-Services-fifth-edition-2009.pdf

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

Thank you for the PDF file. I do have an issue with Directive 61 on page 29. Where is states that medications to alleviate pain may be given to the patient even if they may shorten life. I don’t believe that comfort is equated with dignity. I believe Jesus died with great dignity. He refused painkillers. I believe that though the Dr. Has the ethical right to administer painkillers the final decision must be up to the patient and the Dr. has the obligation to inform the patient that the painkillers will not extend life and may even shorten life.
What most doctors do not tell their patients is even when it is not an end of life measure. Painkillers do not extend life (even Tynol damages the liver and should be used with the upmost caution) There are many non-pharmaceutical methods of pain relief prayer and meditation being one.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

“…decision must be up to the patient and the Dr. has the obligation to inform the patient…”

That is the most important concept to grasp, doctors inform, patients decide and doctors implement. The main thing the Church will not allow is euthanasia. All else is up to the patient. It has been a consistent teaching that there is nothing wrong with opting for pain control even if it shortens life.

 

[mgoforth]

Thank you for the PDF file. I do have an issue with Directive 61 on page 29. Where is states that medications to alleviate pain may be given to the patient even if they may shorten life. I don’t believe that comfort is equated with dignity. I believe Jesus died with great dignity. He refused painkillers. I believe that though the Dr. Has the ethical right to administer painkillers the final decision must be up to the patient and the Dr. has the obligation to inform the patient that the painkillers will not extend life and may even shorten life.
What most doctors do not tell their patients is even when it is not an end of life measure. Painkillers do not extend life (even Tynol damages the liver and should be used with the upmost caution) There are many non-pharmaceutical methods of pain relief prayer and meditation being one.

I understand that this issue affects you in a very real way right now, so I’ll try to be sensitive to that. Jesus doesn’t expect you to decline pain-relieving medication just because He refused the drugged wine. His sacrifice was unique and He needed to be fully alert to experience the whole thing. But you and I are not Christ, even though we should try to imitate Him. None of us are dying for the redemption of humanity, so we don’t have exactly the same obligations.

Be careful of letting pride sneak in during this difficult time. As you say, prayer and meditation can be very effective, but God knows our weaknesses and He wants us to know them as well. Being humble is simply acknowledging the truth, which is that we’re not able to perfectly imitate Christ in all things. Think of St. Therese, the Little Flower, one of my favorite Saints. Her genius and what made her the youngest Doctor of the Church, was that she accepted her weaknesses with a sense of joy. She knew that weakness was a gift from God because it allowed her to depend fully on His mercy and not on her own abilities.

All the events of our lives (except for sin) are part of God’s plan. If your current doctor is an atheist, it’s only because God has allowed it to be that way. When we get upset about the circumstances we find ourselves in, it’s a symptom of pride. In effect we’re saying that we could have planned things better than God. Let go of that kind of thinking and accept the situation in which you currently find yourself with peace and complete confidence in where God has placed you.

About the DNR, God knows your intentions already. He knows that you want to follow the Church’s teaching, so be at peace. Even if some immoral person makes a decision contrary to your good intentions, God will not hold that against you.

“Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” John 14:27

My prayers are with you.

 

[Abba]

I have had some of those “counseling” sessions and they are not counseling they are Pressure Now it might just be my health care system. The last time I was hospitalized the first order of business was not taking my vital signs. No it was the nurse with an already filled out document saying sign this DNR. Needless to say I ripped it and lucky I did because I needed resuscitation. I also feel that the proper “end of life counselors” are priests. The other “counselors” merely Satan’s mouthpiece" pressuring very vulnerable people to commit mortal sin with their very last breath****

You are right, they are more ‘pressure’ sessions than counseling sessions. Regarding the DNR, I agree with you there also, it was a technician that stopped by when I took my father to a hospital, to ask if he wanted sign a DNR. When my father said no, the nurse/technician was not pleased and left. I don’t know what kind of training they are being given but, basically the attitude is that if you are past a certain age, even if you do not have any terminal illness they should just let you die or ‘help’ you to die. They have an attitude like that life is not worth living if you are elderly.

Euthansia is already taking place in the United States. The Belgiums want to take killing handicap children out of the ‘dark zone’ as it is already taking place, well the same in the USA with euthanizing our elderly - they want to take it out of the dark zone. The medical community, have an attitude that they are ahead of the law and the law just needs to catch up with them.

They are committing cruel crimes at the hospitals. They violate peoples human rights and the HIPPA law and justify themselves with the disposition that they have the capability of making life determinations for people. Then, when a relatives notes what they are doing and opposes it, they change the hospital records in preparation for law suit and to make it look pretty for the Health Department. The hospital make billions of dollar and are able to buy off politicians, judge and the best lawyers. In turn, the Health Department is set up to basically not do much nor investigate too well. It stinks and its called corruption.

Meanwhile, helpless elderlies are dying horrible deaths in American hospitals. My father who did not have any terminal illness was euthanized at a hospital. When my father found out they were killing him we tried to stop the procedure only to have corrupt judges intervene and try to protect the interest of the hospitals. After the judges retire, they get to receive a sweet check as members of the corporation of the hospitals. It’s sick. It’s really bad. The statue of limitations to sue the hospital will run out for me in 14 days. I don’t have an attorney, it’s hard to find an attorney when other attorneys and a judge was unprofessional - some attorney have told me that it would be like committing professional suicide.

I am writing a letter to Obama this week regarding the matter surrounding the death of my father. He is the president of the country and it is as such that I will request he orders a federal investigation.

I am glad that you did not sign the DNR and are still alive.