End of Life Questions

[HashemEchad]

I agree. Conservative, it is SO clear that you did everything to help your mom and dad. Even if there were oversights or unclear decisions, it sounds as though you were seeking to do God’s will, which is all any of us can strive for. Talk to a good priest. You should find comfort there.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in order for something to be a serious sin by Catholic definition, three conditions must be fulfilled, right?

It has to be a serious matter;

One has to have fully reflected on it, and known something was wrong;

One has to have fully consented to it.

The way I see it (but remember, I’m not Catholic), if one of those conditions is not fulfilled, it can’t be a serious sin.

So if a person tried their best and meant to do good, even if they did do something erroneous (NOT saying Conservative did, I believe she did everything right!), its not sinful unless they KNEW something to be wrong and decided to do it anyway.

 

[Ellen_G]

This topic of end of life issues has become so complex for the average lay person. Having worked with hospice patients on a medical floor @ the veterans hospital for ten years (1987-1997), I saw the respect for life become a slippery slope until we became a culture of death, and I do believe there is more to come. We were fortunate to have a chief of staff Doctor at this hospital who respected life and sustained nourishment until it was no longer beneficial to the patient. Recently the hospitals do not even let the clergy visit patients who are seriously ill, unless there is written consent on the patients chart. The chaplain @ this hospital was told that he needed to do computerized care reports on his patients, or resign his position…long gone are the days when I could call a chaplain to a dying patients bedside. Dr Kubler Ross said that she took and oath to do no harm and against her mother’s wishes, insisted on parenteral feeding for over three years, after her mother suffered a CVA (Sroke). Dr Kubler Ross was not Catholic, but she believed that the author of life called the shots, and she believed that there was a reason for her mother’s continued existence here on planet earth. Dr Ross had a great respect for Mother Theresa, and she stated that we all needed to follow her example. We are fortunate to have a hospice here in our city that gives Holistic care. Our church also has a respite group that provides care givers support. We all need to pray and help where we can. We still have a number of pro-life Doctors out there, and we need to become a culture of life.

 

[ikkyu]

I am elderly and none too well. I have all the blank forms for a living will. I want to make sure that my instructions conform to Catholic teaching. I need more guidance than two paragraphs from the catechism. Does anyone know where one might find instructions that a simple old man could follow?

 

[Ellen_G]

Regarding the issue of following our church teaching, I would appoint a power of attorney who would speak on my behalf, were I not able to do so. I carry a card, given me by a Catholic Chaplain that states I would want a Priest in case of emergency.

 

[blessedtoo]

I am elderly and none too well. I have all the blank forms for a living will. I want to make sure that my instructions conform to Catholic teaching. I need more guidance than two paragraphs from the catechism. Does anyone know where one might find instructions that a simple old man could follow?

ewtn.com/expert/answers/end_of_life_decisions.htm
ncbcenter.org/FAQ_BrainDeath.asp
ncbcenter.org/FAQ_PVS.asp

We Are Not Required To Sustain Life By Avoiding Death At All Costs, Since Life Is Not An Absolute Good. Usually of greatest concern to a devout Catholic is whether a particular choice to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging treatment constitutes neglect if death follows. Must one always avoid death? When one is not seeking death out of a belief that rejects life, then the answer is no. “If morality requires respect for the life of the body, it does not make it an absolute value. It rejects a neo-pagan notion that tends to promote the cult of the body, to sacrifice everything for its sake.]”["][12]](“http://www.macathconf.org/6Teachings.htm#12) Thus in certain cases, the avoidance of death may conflict with other legitimate values, such as the martyr’s desire to remain faithful even if by doing so, death is imposed. More to the point, allowing death to come naturally, rather than fighting it with aggressively burdensome measures, may serve a value more important than “securing a precarious and painful prolongation of life” by “mak[ing] way for a serene and Christian acceptance of death which is inherent in life.”["][13] The key question to ask in an examination of conscience is: “Am I making this non-treatment decision because I think life is no longer a good and should cease, or am I doing it in spite of the possibility of death to serve a legitimately serious purpose?” Rejecting treatment because it is too burdensome, risky, ineffective, or disproportionate to the expected outcome is not neglect. One’s duty to care in such circumstances shifts from avoiding death to providing comfort and hope as death approaches.
Hospice & Good Pain Management Respect The Lives Of Dying Persons & Should Be Encouraged. Sometimes Catholics and others may think that going to hospice is tantamount to “giving up” on life. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hospice gives persons the opportunity to complete the important work of one’s life, such as forgiving and seeking forgiveness, sharing love, and saying goodbye. Life can be lived fully to the end because the hospice environment frees one from the threat of pain, loneliness, and despair. In addition, some people are concerned that pain relief measures offered at the end of life may carry the risk of hastening death by suppressing vital functions. However, studies show that hastened death by depressed respiration may be a risk in only one percent of the cases.[”][14]]("http://www.macathconf.org/6Teachings.htm#14) Moreover, one can be assured that death is not the object by considering the calculations involved. Good pain relief is calculated to eliminate the pain and manage the risks of death, without killing the patient. Euthanasia measures are calculated to end the pain by killing the patient.["][15]

macathconf.org/6Teachings.htm

 

[blessedtoo]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in order for something to be a serious sin by Catholic definition, three conditions must be fulfilled, right?

It has to be a serious matter;

One has to have fully reflected on it, and known something was wrong;

One has to have fully consented to it.

The way I see it (but remember, I’m not Catholic), if one of those conditions is not fulfilled, it can’t be a serious sin.

So if a person tried their best and meant to do good, even if they did do something erroneous (NOT saying Conservative did, I believe she did everything right!), its not sinful unless they KNEW something to be wrong and decided to do it anyway.

This is absolutely correct with one caveat: Every Catholic has a responsibility to KNOW what the teachings of their Church state. Obviously, with end-of-life issues, the particulars of each case will be nuanced and will likely require some type of consultation or research.

 

[Annmarie1]

Hashem -
That’s horrible about the miscarriage. I live in Germany, and when I lost a pregnancy at only 8 weeks, the hospital (Catholic) told me about how they intern them all on hospital grounds so that parents have the option to visit. I never thought such a thing existed, and was so grateful.

 

[HashemEchad]

Hashem -
That’s horrible about the miscarriage. I live in Germany, and when I lost a pregnancy at only 8 weeks, the hospital (Catholic) told me about how they intern them all on hospital grounds so that parents have the option to visit. I never thought such a thing existed, and was so grateful.

I was really infuriated at the time, largely because it was a Catholic hospital and I felt certain they applied the same standards to all unborn life as they do to those killed by abortion.

Fortunately, a monsignor I knew from my activity in the pro-life movement got involved (the hospital just happened to be in his parish too), and he made sure they understood that from conception on, the baby is to be regarded as a person.

I just feel it was horrible for me to have had to fight to get the remains of a BABY from a Catholic hospital. I later found out from local pro-life activists that that particular hospital is well-known in the area (to quote one guy), “as being Catholic in name only”.

There are non-Catholics (like me) who will seek out Catholic hospitals, nursing homes, etc when we are ill BECAUSE we know of the church’s respect for all life. These hospitals need to recognize this. I gave birth to my daughter in a Catholic hospital because I didn’t want to give birth in the same place where abortions were being done.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If a patient is proven to be “brain dead” that is tantamount to death. No artificial life support is necessary or even prolonged.

There are different degrees of “brain dead.” Terry Schiavo was a case in point – she was able to metabolize food and water, and only by depriving her of those things did she die – over a long time.

 

[saylo]

There are different degrees of “brain dead.” Terry Schiavo was a case in point – she was able to metabolize food and water, and only by depriving her of those things did she die – over a long time.

When the brain scanner shows a “flat line” the brain is dead. The Church has stated this as no longer useful for life support.

Doubt it? Call the Vatican Counsel in Washington, D.C. This is what they told me, firsthand.

I called the Vatican Counsel because I was getting mixed opinions from several priests; they just added to the dilemma. This is a firsthand, personal experience.

Terri Schiavo had some “brain activity” and it was registered on the scanner; her brian was NOT “flatlined.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

When the brain scanner shows a “flat line” the brain is dead. The Church has stated this as no longer useful for life support.

Doubt it? Call the Vatican Counsel in Washington, D.C. This is what they told me, firsthand.

I called the Vatican Counsel because I was getting mixed opinions from several priests; they just added to the dilemma. This is a firsthand, personal experience.

Terri Schiavo had some “brain activity” and it was registered on the scanner; her brian was NOT “flatlined.”

“Brain dead” does not equal “flat line” everywhere.

 

[Ellen_G]

Thank you for stating the Terry Schiavo case, Vern…was also re-freshed by the statement that her body was able to metabolize nourishment and was not naturally shutting down. The information on hospice care was also informative. In our ever growing complex lives, hospice care has provided needed support to the dying and their families, helping the families cope and come closer to thinking about their own mortality…I have seen so many come back to their faith, and purpose of life through this great institution. Recently, through our church repite group, I gave assistance to a 93 yr old friend who was assisted by hospice. She told me that at her age she would not opt for chemotherapy. Dorothy also told me that she was not afraid of dying, but that she was uneasy about the PROCESS of dying and what to expect. With all of her neighbors and hospice assisting in this process, Dorothy lived life in the present moment up to her last breath. She fell in love with all the nurses, as they with her. The great Doctor who was instrumental in getting this hospice started even encouraged Dorothy to write her own Eulogy…she had the last word, and we felt her presence @ the liturgy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thank you for stating the Terry Schiavo case, Vern…was also re-freshed by the statement that her body was able to metabolize nourishment and was not naturally shutting down. The information on hospice care was also informative. In our ever growing complex lives, hospice care has provided needed support to the dying and their families, helping the families cope and come closer to thinking about their own mortality…I have seen so many come back to their faith, and purpose of life through this great institution. Recently, through our church repite group, I gave assistance to a 93 yr old friend who was assisted by hospice. She told me that at her age she would not opt for chemotherapy. Dorothy also told me that she was not afraid of dying, but that she was uneasy about the PROCESS of dying and what to expect. With all of her neighbors and hospice assisting in this process, Dorothy lived life in the present moment up to her last breath. She fell in love with all the nurses, as they with her. The great Doctor who was instrumental in getting this hospice started even encouraged Dorothy to write her own Eulogy…she had the last word, and we felt her presence @ the liturgy.

What a beautiful story. Thank you and God bless you.

 

[saylo]

“Brain dead” does not equal “flat line” everywhere.

So when is "brain dead? What are the indicators? Is there even such a thing as “brain dead?”

If there are no signals on the scanner is the brain still alive?

The Vatican acknowledges there is a condition of “brain dead.”

Is there some more to it?

 

[vern_humphrey]

So when is "brain dead? What are the indicators? Is there even such a thing as “brain dead?”

Thank you for making my point for me – the criteria for “brain dead” can vary from state to state.

 

[saylo]

Thank you for making my point for me – the criteria for “brain dead” can vary from state to state.

Not doubting that point. But I submitted to this thread MY personal experience and the Vatican position on when life ceases. My mother had no activity registering whatsoever and was on a respirator and other life support.

The doctor told me that Mom was brain dead and two other doctors there verified that fact.

I am not being argumentative I just shared my personal experience on the most heavy event in my life.

So, “brain dead” can vary from state-to-state…what are a few of the differences? I would appreciate that. Does the electronic scanners have any verity?

This is becoming an even grayer area than I imagined.

I made YOUR point for YOU but was my Mom’s chart in need of more info? Is “brain dead” some sort of nebulous term and inconclusive? Scanners are redundant?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not doubting that point. But I submitted to this thread MY personal experience and the Vatican position on when life ceases. My mother had no activity registering whatsoever and was on a respirator and other life support.

The doctor told me that Mom was brain dead and two other doctors there verified that fact.

I am not being argumentative I just shared my personal experience on the most heavy event in my life.

So, “brain dead” can vary from state-to-state…what are a few of the differences? I would appreciate that. Does the electronic scanners have any verity?

This is becoming an even grayer area than I imagined.

I made YOUR point for YOU but was my Mom’s chart in need of more info? Is “brain dead” some sort of nebulous term and inconclusive? Scanners are redundant?

There are many tests for “brain dead” – such as flashing a light into the eye and seeing if the pupil reacts. It is one thing to following the teaching of the Church, another thing to assume, because some is using the same phrase that he is in snych with the Church.

 

[saylo]

There are many tests for “brain dead” – such as flashing a light into the eye and seeing if the pupil reacts. It is one thing to following the teaching of the Church, another thing to assume, because some is using the same phrase that he is in snych with the Church.

You are not getting a grasp on my particular (name removed by moderator)ut. I shared with you and everyone else an experience and you opted to be the “know-it-all” and you are inept in empathy. This thread is about end of life and it is the most sorrowful experience. It is not a game. Who made you the authority on when a person is brain dead? With you there is no definitive state of brain dead.

You have a way of getting people P.O.'d…you got me to be and it’s a good thing we are not face-to-face. I’ll bet you get a lot of people upset with your smart aleck baloney.

As for being “…in synch” with the Church that is exactly what I was doing. Who died and made you Pope?

You can go ahead and report me but I have to tell you that you are shallow. I could as well sent you this on a PM but I’ll give you the opening to get me suspended. You’re just full of yourself.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are not getting a grasp on my particular (name removed by moderator)ut. I shared with you and everyone else an experience and you opted to be the “know-it-all” and you are inept in empathy. This thread is about end of life and it is the most sorrowful experience. It is not a game. Who made you the authority on when a person is brain dead? With you there is no definitive state of brain dead.

You have a way of getting people P.O.'d…you got me to be and it’s a good thing we are not face-to-face. I’ll bet you get a lot of people upset with your smart aleck baloney.

As for being “…in synch” with the Church that is exactly what I was doing. Who died and made you Pope?

You can go ahead and report me but I have to tell you that you are shallow. I could as well sent you this on a PM but I’ll give you the opening to get me suspended. You’re just full of yourself.

When you sink to personal attacks, you clearly have nothing further to contribute.

 

[Ellen_G]

It sounds to me, SAYLO, that you are still suffering through the stages of grief that accompany the death of a loved one. Anger is one of those steps and we all go through this with a loss, and when we work through this, we are able to move on. You were questioning how one determines brain death and I have a bit of information to share: An EEG will show no electroactivity if a person is brain dead. If a person is in a deep coma, or vegetative state the EEG will show brain activity. There are a couple other tests that Doctors use: Cerebral blood flow ( injecting a dye to see if their is blood flow to the brain), and an Atropine test that will increase the heart beat if a person is not brain dead. You mentioned that your MOM was on a respirator and other supports. These supports cannot reverse brain death, and once they are removed the organs will collapse. You had three doctors that confirmed the diagnosis, so I don’t think you need to worry about whether more could have been done for your MOM. It is difficult to lose a loved one…my prayers are with you…God Bless.