End-of-pew blockers

[LucyLight]

The point is, that most that are complaining don’t have a physical need for it. They have a want. They want to sit where they want to sit, and by gosh, you shouldn’t be sitting there when they arrive.

It is simple, when you arrive at Mass, sit down. Where ever you like. If someone arrives later, and they ask to join you in the pew, either move down the pew or allow them to move into the pew. There. Problem solved.

If you have a handful of young children and you have to get up several times with children in your arms it can be pretty difficult to do so when you are in the middle of the pew. It can also happen at the worst times like when everyone in the row is kneeling. I often just end up not coming back to my seat and standing in the back with my kids because I don’t want to disrupt everyone in the row again. For a lot of parents Mass is one of the hardest things that they do every week. There have been several times that as soon as I’m back in my car to leave I’m in tears. Having kids at Mass isn’t always that hard, it goes in phases. Anyways, its a relief and hugely appreciated when someone scoots over and allows us to sit on the end. It just makes it a little bit easier.

A few posters have mentioned that they have a physical handicap that is helped by sitting at the end of the pew. Of course, you can’t always tell, but if someone has a walking aide giving them the end seat would also be courteous.

You’re right though, its not a need, our lives don’t depend on it, but its a huge help to some people.

 

[RyanBlack]

Amen. It seems that some think that latecomers, or those with unruly children, or both, have some special rights.

Parenthetically while it takes no special talent to conceive a child, it does indeed take ability, and concern for the rights of others, to control that child’s behavior in public. This is as true in the Mass as it is in any other public place. The blame for any disruptive behavior of children falls squarely on the parents.

You seem to be very fond of overly broad, condemning statements. Really, the blame any disruptive behavior always falls squarely on the parents? That’s just not the case. Sometime disruptive behavior is because a child is is tired, or hungry, or just because the child is a toddler and doesn’t yet have the capacity to remain quiet and seated in the same place for an hour or longer. Of course if the behavior becomes so disruptive as to cause everybody’s focus to be taken away from the service, it is the responsibility of the parent to take measures either to stop the disruptive behavior or to remove the child until the behavior is stopped. However, it’s simply not the case that the parents are always to blame for the disruptive behavior of their children. Sometimes, blame simply doesn’t really even enter into the matter at all. Sometimes it’s just children being children.

 

[LucyLight]

These issues seem to be far less frequent in parishes where the EF Mass is celebrated. Go figure!

Don’t go there.

 

[RyanBlack]

Hmmm…I thought that’s what parents were for…to teach them the difference…

It is a problem when it is difficult for people to concentrate at Mass with a screaming toddler. We are supposed to be there to worship God…letting a toddler go on and on teaches them it’s all about them…

And do you think that we, the parents of these little children, whom some of you seem not to want in Church (unless they meet your particular standards of acceptable behavior), aren’t coming to worship God as well? Do you think that we come for the sake of the torture that the whole experience can sometimes become? Do you think we come to have people frown at us, stare at us, scold us, and offer unsolicited advice? Do you think we enjoy never being able to get through so much as a single Mass/Divine Liturgy without having our prayers interrupted? Do you think that we enjoy the fact that every single liturgy we attend is basically filled with anxiety from start to finish because of constantly having to worry about what you child might do next and whether you’ll be able to intervene quickly enough before he does start ruining the experience for everyone else? Did you ever stop to think that when a parent fails to remove a child at the point at which you determined the child should have been removed that it might be because the parent is just exhausted with dealing with this week after week for months on end, or that the parent was hoping that maybe he or she could actually get through one single service without having to remove the child?

 

[Seeker1961]

And do you think that we, the parents of these little children, whom some of you seem not to want in Church (unless they meet your particular standards of acceptable behavior), aren’t coming to worship God as well? Do you think that we come for the sake of the torture that the whole experience can sometimes become? Do you think we come to have people frown at us, stare at us, scold us, and offer unsolicited advice? Do you think we enjoy never being able to get through so much as a single Mass/Divine Liturgy without having our prayers interrupted? Do you think that we enjoy the fact that every single liturgy we attend is basically filled with anxiety from start to finish because of constantly having to worry about what you child might do next and whether you’ll be able to intervene quickly enough before he does start ruining the experience for everyone else? Did you ever stop to think that when a parent fails to remove a child at the point at which you determined the child should have been removed that it might be because the parent is just exhausted with dealing with this week after week for months on end, or that the parent was hoping that maybe he or she could actually get through one single service without having to remove the child?

and here it is-if you don’t bend to the wishes and “needs” of parents you hate children and don’t want them at Mass.

In fact, I’ve read many posts about how WONDERFUL it is to have little ones there.

Just because everyone who doesn’t have children with them doesn’t LEAP out of their place as soon as a family with small children walks in to allow them to have their personal choice of seating doesn’t mean that ALL those people HATE children and would rather have a Mass without them.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Hmmm…I thought that’s what parents were for…to teach them the difference…

It is a problem when it is difficult for people to concentrate at Mass with a screaming toddler. We are supposed to be there to worship God…letting a toddler go on and on teaches them it’s all about them…

We were talking about toddlers LAUGHING in church, not screaming. You think it’s even inappropriate for a child to LAUGH in church. Don’t shift the subject to a screaming toddler. I have never in my life seen a parent who will not get up and take a crying baby or toddler out of the sanctuary. A child giggling should not, IMO, disturb anyone nearby and if those grumps ARE disturbed, I feel sorry for them. I suspect they either have never had children or have forgotten what a blessing it is to see little children being happy, especially in church.

 

[zab]

**and here it is-if you don’t bend to the wishes and “needs” of parents you hate children and don’t want them at Mass. **

In fact, I’ve read many posts about how WONDERFUL it is to have little ones there.

Just because everyone who doesn’t have children with them doesn’t LEAP out of their place as soon as a family with small children walks in to allow them to have their personal choice of seating doesn’t mean that ALL those people HATE children and would rather have a Mass without them.

You totally missed his point. That is not what he said nor implied at all. We should all be a little more patient and understanding of one another and that includes people who have never had to handle little ones in church who put total blame of disruptive children on the parents (I am assuming some of these posters are still quite young ). And parents also need to understand that there are people who have need to be on the end. I gave an example pages back of my daughter and her family in the pew with the Extraordinary Minister on the end. Can you imagine trying to get out of a pew over a young family of 7? Yes, it would be wonderful to worship in total peace and without any distractions. But it can be, and often is, an opportunity to practice virtue.

 

[maltmom]

We were talking about toddlers LAUGHING in church, not screaming. You think it’s even inappropriate for a child to LAUGH in church. Don’t shift the subject to a screaming toddler. I have never in my life seen a parent who will not get up and take a crying baby or toddler out of the sanctuary. A child giggling should not, IMO, disturb anyone nearby and if those grumps ARE disturbed, I feel sorry for them. I suspect they either have never had children or have forgotten what a blessing it is to see little children being happy, especially in church.

For me, hearing a toddler laugh/giggle is a hug from God. When a child smiles are you it’s not fake. It warms my heart.

When a child is screaming I pray for the parents. If I catch their eye I give them a big smile. I’ve never had children, but I can only imagine how difficult it is try to worship and have to deal with a screaming child.

I pray that as I age I don’t become one of those prune faced old ladies that shakes my head at everything going on around me.

 

[RyanBlack]

and here it is-if you don’t bend to the wishes and “needs” of parents you hate children and don’t want them at Mass.

In fact, I’ve read many posts about how WONDERFUL it is to have little ones there.

Just because everyone who doesn’t have children with them doesn’t LEAP out of their place as soon as a family with small children walks in to allow them to have their personal choice of seating doesn’t mean that ALL those people HATE children and would rather have a Mass without them.

I’m not the one who has asked for anyone to leap out of their place for my family, which wasn’t even the issue of the post of mine to which you were responding. My wife and I have never asked anyone to move for us at church, and it is highly unlikely that we ever would.

I suggest that you might have a different perspective if you were a parent. I’ve seen this issue from multiple angle: as a single adult (until age 35), as a married adult with no children (for 3 years), and as a parent (for almost 3 years). Actually being a parent of a small child brings a different perspective and appreciation of this issue.

As for being accused of asking people to bend to my needs and wants, that’s ridiculous. My wife and I don’t ask people to do anything for us at Divine Liturgy, other than to have a little bit of patience and understanding that our son is a toddler. He simply CANNOT remain perfectly still and quiet for 75-90 minutes. If he becomes disruptive, we attempt to stop those behaviors. If that doesn’t work, and he becomes too disruptive, we will take him to the foyer–sometimes multiple times. I fail to see how this amounts to our asking anyone to bend to our needs, much less to our wants. However, if the way we deal with it doesn’t satisfy you, perhaps you are the one who is demanding that others bend to your “needs” and wants.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

And do you think that we, the parents of these little children, whom some of you seem not to want in Church (unless they meet your particular standards of acceptable behavior), aren’t coming to worship God as well? Do you think that we come for the sake of the torture that the whole experience can sometimes become? Do you think we come to have people frown at us, stare at us, scold us, and offer unsolicited advice? Do you think we enjoy never being able to get through so much as a single Mass/Divine Liturgy without having our prayers interrupted? Do you think that we enjoy the fact that every single liturgy we attend is basically filled with anxiety from start to finish because of constantly having to worry about what you child might do next and whether you’ll be able to intervene quickly enough before he does start ruining the experience for everyone else? Did you ever stop to think that when a parent fails to remove a child at the point at which you determined the child should have been removed that it might be because the parent is just exhausted with dealing with this week after week for months on end, or that the parent was hoping that maybe he or she could actually get through one single service without having to remove the child?

Really? Every time you are filled with anxiety? That is really a sad statement. I understand that your wife has health issues, but there are many things you can do to make this situation better for both of them. I speak from experience, routines and habits make life much easier with rambuctious toddlers. And simplifing life will make things much easier on your wife.

Planning our weekends with Mass/Divine Liturgy as the first priority and other things second, also means that parents aren’t tired from staying up late Saturday, weekends aren’t crammed with activites and chores, and things go much more smoothly.

In my limited experience with Divine Liturgy, I’ve seen that people move about more during the service - going up to icons, even leaving and coming back in. Is that not the practice in your church? My Russian friends tell me that it is very common for moms to walk around with younger children or for a parent to take them outside for even 1/2 hour and then come back.

 

[zab]

Really? Every time you are filled with anxiety? That is really a sad statement. I understand that your wife has health issues, but there are many things you can do to make this situation better for both of them. I speak from experience, routines and habits make life much easier with rambuctious toddlers. And simplifing life will make things much easier on your wife.

Planning our weekends with Mass/Divine Liturgy as the first priority and other things second, also means that parents aren’t tired from staying up late Saturday, weekends aren’t crammed with activites and chores, and things go much more smoothly.

In my limited experience with Divine Liturgy, I’ve seen that people move about more during the service - going up to icons, even leaving and coming back in. Is that not the practice in your church? My Russian friends tell me that it is very common for moms to walk around with younger children or for a parent to take them outside for even 1/2 hour and then come back.

He is just sharing what it is like for him in response to outright attacks against him. It doesn’t help when others think he can do a better job. We all learn from experience.

 

[babochka]

Really? Every time you are filled with anxiety? That is really a sad statement. I understand that your wife has health issues, but there are many things you can do to make this situation better for both of them. I speak from experience, routines and habits make life much easier with rambuctious toddlers. And simplifing life will make things much easier on your wife.

Planning our weekends with Mass/Divine Liturgy as the first priority and other things second, also means that parents aren’t tired from staying up late Saturday, weekends aren’t crammed with activites and chores, and things go much more smoothly.

In my limited experience with Divine Liturgy, I’ve seen that people move about more during the service - going up to icons, even leaving and coming back in. Is that not the practice in your church? My Russian friends tell me that it is very common for moms to walk around with younger children or for a parent to take them outside for even 1/2 hour and then come back.

Moving about is certainly more acceptable in Divine Liturgy. My 2 year old and I walk around the edge of the church kissing icons. Sometimes we go out, but usually only for a few minutes.

As the parent of a young child, I seriously doubt that Ryan’s tiredness is because of late nights or too many weekend activities. I suspect it is because parenting a young child is exhausting business. I’ve been tired for 10 years!

 

[babochka]

You totally missed his point. That is not what he said nor implied at all. We should all be a little more patient and understanding of one another and that includes people who have never had to handle little ones in church who put total blame of disruptive children on the parents (I am assuming some of these posters are still quite young ). And parents also need to understand that there are people who have need to be on the end. I gave an example pages back of my daughter and her family in the pew with the Extraordinary Minister on the end. Can you imagine trying to get out of a pew over a young family of 7? Yes, it would be wonderful to worship in total peace and without any distractions. But it can be, and often is, an opportunity to practice virtue.

Yes! Parents need to be respectful of others and others need to be patient and tolerant toward the imperfections of parents and their young children.

 

[RyanBlack]

Really? Every time you are filled with anxiety? That is really a sad statement. I understand that your wife has health issues, but there are many things you can do to make this situation better for both of them. I speak from experience, routines and habits make life much easier with rambuctious toddlers. And simplifing life will make things much easier on your wife.

Planning our weekends with Mass/Divine Liturgy as the first priority and other things second, also means that parents aren’t tired from staying up late Saturday, weekends aren’t crammed with activites and chores, and things go much more smoothly.

In my limited experience with Divine Liturgy, I’ve seen that people move about more during the service - going up to icons, even leaving and coming back in. Is that not the practice in your church? My Russian friends tell me that it is very common for moms to walk around with younger children or for a parent to take them outside for even 1/2 hour and then come back.

You’ve made some assumptions here that you really ought not to have made.

 

[babochka]

These issues seem to be far less frequent in parishes where the EF Mass is celebrated. Go figure!

Really? Although I attend the Divine Liturgy, many of my friends attend an FSSP parish. Trust me, this is something that all parents struggle with. It is a major topic of conversation when Catholic moms get together, even from those who attend the EF. One of my friends who attends the EF simply states that she expects to spend the next 10 years in the courtyard, with some combination of her 5 rambunctious boys. It is a fact of life for parents who take their young children to church. You cannot make a toddler behave. They are in the process of learning appropriate behavior and obedience. The process takes time.